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Semi finals game 2 dutchkillers - The Maestro


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#21 maxroelofs

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:39 PM

Let's first play the 3th game before we have more discussion then needed. We'll try to be more clear in the rules next tournament. Bu first play the game, it's only a problem if the game ends up tied. We'll discuss this but it's not aa problem yet.


To watch stratego videos: https://www.youtube....HOHXWONQMsVcOLA

#22 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 07:48 AM

 

In the Semi finals and finals, this will be the best of 3 games played.  The player to have the best record after three games or if won the first two games, will advance to the finals.  If a game is a draw in the first two games, it will be a draw.  No one will get any points for a drawn game, but if there is a draw on the 3rd game and both players are tied, then the match will continue until someone wins the next game played.  Again all three games or more you play, the winner must show a screen shot.  If a draw happens, then one or both players must still show a screen shot to show the game was played.

Rules are:

15) Each round will have random single matches until the final four where ratings will determine who faces who in the best of 3 matches.  The top player will faced the fourth highest ranked player and the second and third ranked player will face one another for the semi finals match. Winners qualify to the big final (games best of 3)

Before games in final four begin we explained very detailed what means best of 3.

In this pair the result after 2 games is 1-0 for dutchkillers.

So in case third game is tie we will have 3 games and the result will be again 1-0. The player who qualifies to the final is the player with the best record after  these 3 games and this is dutchkillers with record 1-0.

Everything is clear. I can not understand why there is so big discusion about this.



#23 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:11 AM

Rules for the Online Stratego Tournament

 

7) If any ties have be agreed upon, the match must be replayed until a winner with a legible screen shot has come forth.  Next game must be exactly after the first except if both opponents agree to play the game in another time.

 

 

 

 

Sorry midnightguy,but it is not right what you say.

 

He is right, the Maestro.

 

 

Dekaeneas-Spy

 

My friend chris

Both players were informed from me that they must play again exactly after the tie (this was in chat i had with both of them after the second game).

Rules give them the right if both agree play in other day. And they agreed to play on Saturday.

After a tie winner needs to be only in rounds with single games.

Now we have final four games and the final result comes out of best of 3. (see the post above)

Everything is according the rules.

 

KARAISKAKIS 


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#24 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:24 AM

Tournament committee decided that everything is according the rules of this event.

Also I want to remind both of you that deadline is Sunday 24th.

So in case The Maestro wins next game I recomment you to play again asap.



#25 The Maestro

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:25 AM

well it IS a problem and a big one.

 

When I joined this site, I did this for very simple reasons. Playing one of my favourite games, and hopefully against players that can up my skills,  I don't care about ratings and ranks, All I want is a fun and fair game, with mutual respect. After losing a few winning games without understanding why I could not move my pieces anymore or just ending up in the login screen I discovered the forum and read about the pause/tie glitch and understood what happened / is happening. 

 

Then I saw the announcement of the tourney and I joined it immediately, for the exact same reasons as I gave above for joining the site. Now I would for sure play at least one game against a good player and there was zero risk of disrespect, glitching etc since the rules were/are very clear.

 

To be honest, it didn't go very smooth. The second round I played a guy who decided to go on a business trip, leaving me ONE day and also only ONE time that day to play. Then he showed up late and asked for another delay, because "he had to take the subway through Manhattan to the other side of town to go and look for a PC". Incredible stuff.

 

The third round went better, although again I WAS TOLD the exact time of the next game because that was "the only moment"my opponent could play. 

 

I made it to the final 4, hoping to get THE MAN, the (former?) world champ Nortrom. Lucky Papa pulled one of his amazing tricks by beating M2C and that changed things, because he was even lower ranked than me ;-) (Go Lucky Go, you know you have all my sympathy and I hope you win the entire thing!). 

 

So I get Dutchkillers in the semi-finals and he is very high ranked so I am happy. We are only 2 games in (only one counting according to the rules) and this EVERYTHING I didn't expect about a nice and fair tourney.

 

Game One: although far ahead DK starts moving circles with 3 pieces for close to 30 minutes, Also suddenly ON MY TURN he requsest a break. No chat asking for it just a request. ON MY TURN. It was very very close to a glitch.

 

9) There will be no glitching allowed during the match, anyone caught cheating during the match will have their rating reset as a first offense to cheating on our site prescribed by the Tournament Committee and you will be disqualified from the event and any future events.   

 

I asked him after the match why he played so slow and was running circles and he just said: "well I was ahead and I don't care how long it takes then, as long as I am ahead". I also asked about his almost glitch and he just said "yeah I really had to take a piss badly". 

 

The second game he had more fun in store. He started chasing a scout for over 40 minutes (yes FOURTY). In the end I just gave that piece up and again he started moving circles, I tried to free up some of my lower pieces so I could use them, by putting some pressure with a major. I did that for 3 minutes and it didn't work. (After MORE THAN 2 hours) we ended up a draw.

 

In the chat DK told me he forgot to take the screenshot of the end screen (luckily I did) and told me to put it up . "Post it!"  We talked about when we could play again and I mentioned I could not play Fridaynight (I told him that earlier this week as well) and he came up with Saturday and I told him I had to doublecheck on the time. In the meanwhile I received a chat from Karaiskakis, who told me that since it was draw we had to play again immediately if possible, but apparantly DK couldn't and he asked for a Saturday match.

 

These chats are going on at the same time. Karaiskakis also suddenly tells/orders me to play the next game without chasing. WHAT???? Turned out DK, while chitchatting with me (and me putting up the sreenshot he "missed"), filed a complaint or something about that major moving around after chasing me for over 40 mintes this game and a long time the other game.

 

Then to top it all off, although the rules are clear that a draw doesn't count and calls for an immediate rematch, I am first put in a position that a draw will have him win the series and after apparantly hours of thinking about this, a "we will see after the match".

 

Guys, please get your act together. I am playing a guy that spent over 90 minutes of mostly stalling in the first game when "trying to win", then over 2 hours in his second game, so how do you think he will play the third game if now suddenly he has to only get a draw...That is exactly why also in the future it should always be 2 WINS, since the object of this game is to win and the 2 out of 3 is just to factor out a lucky shot, so in the end the "right" person wins. 

 

I suggested a saturday 10.00 match since we will have all day to play the rematch of the 2nd game and if needed more rematches or a third game. Now he also rejects that time and says that a draw is enough, which to me confirms that I am in for another long stalling match.

 

So yes there are plenty of problems now....all the reasons I joined (and that should be the only reasons for ANY people to play here) are gone: fun / fair game games (well certainly not this round), with no Glitching attemps (he did that as well as mentioned), clear rules and respect.


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#26 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:57 AM

 

Game One: although far ahead DK starts moving circles with 3 pieces for close to 30 minutes, Also suddenly ON MY TURN he requsest a break. No chat asking for it just a request. ON MY TURN. It was very very close to a glitch.

 

9) There will be no glitching allowed during the match, anyone caught cheating during the match will have their rating reset as a first offense to cheating on our site prescribed by the Tournament Committee and you will be disqualified from the event and any future events.   

 

I asked him after the match why he played so slow and was running circles and he just said: "well I was ahead and I don't care how long it takes then, as long as I am ahead". I also asked about his almost glitch and he just said "yeah I really had to take a piss badly". 

 

The second game he had more fun in store. He started chasing a scout for over 40 minutes (yes FOURTY). In the end I just gave that piece up and again he started moving circles, I tried to free up some of my lower pieces so I could use them, by putting some pressure with a major. I did that for 3 minutes and it didn't work. (After MORE THAN 2 hours) we ended up a draw.

 

In the chat DK told me he forgot to take the screenshot of the end screen (luckily I did) and told me to put it up . "Post it!"  We talked about when we could play again and I mentioned I could not play Fridaynight (I told him that earlier this week as well) and he came up with Saturday and I told him I had to doublecheck on the time. In the meanwhile I received a chat from Karaiskakis, who told me that since it was draw we had to play again immediately if possible, but apparantly DK couldn't and he asked for a Saturday match.

 

These chats are going on at the same time. Karaiskakis also suddenly tells/orders me to play the next game without chasing. WHAT???? Turned out DK, while chitchatting with me (and me putting up the sreenshot he "missed"), filed a complaint or something about that major moving around after chasing me for over 40 mintes this game and a long time the other game.

 

Then to top it all off, although the rules are clear that a draw doesn't count and calls for an immediate rematch, I am first put in a position that a draw will have him win the series and after apparantly hours of thinking about this, a "we will see after the match".

 

Guys, please get your act together. I am playing a guy that spent over 90 minutes of mostly stalling in the first game when "trying to win", then over 2 hours in his second game, so how do you think he will play the third game if now suddenly he has to only get a draw...That is exactly why also in the future it should always be 2 WINS, since the object of this game is to win and the 2 out of 3 is just to factor out a lucky shot, so in the end the "right" person wins. 

 

I suggested a saturday 10.00 match since we will have all day to play the rematch of the 2nd game and if needed more rematches or a third game. Now he also rejects that time and says that a draw is enough, which to me confirms that I am in for another long stalling match.

 

So yes there are plenty of problems now....all the reasons I joined (and that should be the only reasons for ANY people to play here) are gone: fun / fair game games (well certainly not this round), with no Glitching attemps (he did that as well as mentioned), clear rules and respect.

First of all why you did not take screenshot with this break request on your move?

This is against the rules but you do not give any proof.

Secondy if you wanted play again exactly after the tie game you could do that. But both players agreed to play other day and time.

About chasing

Both of you accused each other for chasing and stalling. I just asked from both of you play more fair and nothing more.

Finally if until the end of this day there is no arrangement of the 3nd game committee will arrange that on Sunday in a time according your posts. If there is no post this time will be 10.00am (dutch time)


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#27 The Maestro

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 09:15 AM

1, If you want proof of the request break, we will just ask DK here and now...he for sure will be a man and admit it here...

2. I wrote my post after the maxroelofs post so before I saw any of KARAISKASIS posts

3. It is really amazing that you just ignore 95% of my post, although it concerns all the basics of a lot of problems here

4. You made extensive rules about the tourney, which I read very well. Rule 7 says a game is not a game in case of a draw and nowhere in the RULES (especially not in 15) it even suggest that suddenly Rule 7 doesnt count, which is also logical, since as we say in law practise, neither by the letter nor in spirit should that be the case. The best guy needs to win and there has to be a decisive winner, hence the 2 of 3.

 

So that is what it is. Now we wait on DK, first to admit on his request break and who knows what's next from him....  



#28 dutchkillers

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:10 AM

i told you maestro i can play on fryday after 19:00 thill 22:00

saturday after 15:00 thill 22;00 and sunday from 15:00 thill 22;00


First lesson dutch wins second lesson first learn lesson one.dutch the warrior


#29 The Maestro

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:32 AM

what no answer on the break request?

 

also you never gave me these times (although I told you I can't play afternoon/nights during the weekend). I am available on Saturday at 10 am  and if you now all of sudden can't play that time, 10 am on Sunday it is (see above)....



#30 dutchkillers

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:51 AM

are you crazy its alowed to ask for a break when you play 2 hours and 7 min i just needed to pee and you where so nice to not give me one real sporting from you and if i pee it cost me 30 seconds from my time so please stop 

i can`t play at 10:00 in the morning  i give more time to play then you and i dont understand why you talk like this all sudden


First lesson dutch wins second lesson first learn lesson one.dutch the warrior


#31 The Maestro

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 12:25 PM

 

are you crazy its alowed to ask for a break when you play 2 hours and 7 min i just needed to pee and you where so nice to not give me one real sporting from you and if i pee it cost me 30 seconds from my time so please stop 

i can`t play at 10:00 in the morning  i give more time to play then you and i dont understand why you talk like this all sudden

well committee there it is....RULE 9! seems we are done....



#32 Dekaeneas-Spy

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 12:42 PM

My friend chris

Both players were informed from me that they must play again exactly after the tie (this was in chat i had with both of them after the second game).

Rules give them the right if both agree play in other day. And they agreed to play on Saturday.

After a tie winner needs to be only in rounds with single games.

Now we have final four games and the final result comes out of best of 3. (see the post above)

Everything is according the rules.

 

KARAISKAKIS 

 

OK my friend KARAISKAKIS ;)

 

I have not thoroughly read the rules and I think the winner is he who does two wins. I apologize :(  for my mistake, my friend Midnightguy.
I apologize :( , and
the committee tournament.
But believe that this should be the next tournament. (2 wins).
I agree with the Μaestro. ;)

Νot done in the semi-finals one player needs a draw to go to final.

Αre not so beautiful game, and we looks to play defense, defense, defense only to achieve our purpose and not have fun and show that we deserve.
We kill the stratego so.
:(

 

 

Dekaeneas-Spy



#33 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 07:35 AM

As far as i can see there is no agreement about the day and time for your third game.
T.C. suggestion is to arrange the game on Sunday 10.00 am (time when The Maestro is available)
If dutchkillers do not come we will arange the 4th game 17.00 on same day.
Score will be 1-1 and in this case dutch lose his advantage for the tie.

Alternatively we can propose you play on monday about 17.00 giving one day extension to semifinals.

In case The Maestro wins, next game will be immediately after that game.

 

Please guys let us know what you prefer.



#34 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 07:39 AM

 

 

well committee there it is....RULE 9! seems we are done....

 

T.C. decision is that without screenshots there is no case to judge and this is final.



#35 The Maestro

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 09:57 AM

Monday 1700 is no option so Sunday 10 am it is



#36 The Maestro

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 11:15 AM

If something happens and the accused party ADMITS (without illegal pressure etc ofcourse), all around the world that's it and the case is closed. What else does anyone need. It is only when someone denies you have to look for extra evidence. You now decided that what counts for the whole world and entire civilization doesn't count for you. You need a screenshot of something that BOTH parties agreed happened. This really makes me think there are some serious issues here...

 

First of all in your own rules for the tourney it doesn't say there needs to been a screenshot at all. In the Dutch Rules it even says that no matter what there is a ZERO TOLERANCE policy in place. Do you even know what your own rules are and what the terms used there mean?

 

It's very simple, the illegal move happened and he admitted it, so that's it. Or now suddenly there a ONE TOLERANCE Policy for needing "a piss badly" so bad that you couldn't wait 2 seconds to do it on your own turn and put up 5 words in a chat request. DK admitted all this, although his facts where "a little" off. Before the game started we were chatting good luck etc and he told me that he was waiting on the mailman for a package to arrive and if I would let him have a pause if the package came. I told him that would be perfectly fine. So after about 20 minutes in the game on HIS turn he requested a pause (clear to me it must have been the package), so no problem. Then 10-15 minutes later he did the request on MY TURN. So the whole story about suddenly having to go the toilet and the game was so long is complete nonsense, because  he had a pause I granted him 10 minutes earlier and could have used the bathroom. So that leaves us with no reasonable explanation at all, unless there is a TWO (or even more) TOLERANCE Policy.

 

So this semi-finals are over and done....



#37 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 11:21 AM

Monday 1700 is no option so Sunday 10 am it is


In this case if dutchkillers do not come The Maestro wins the third game,score will be 1-1 and 4th game will be same day at 17.00. Any additional game will be immediately after the fourth game.

#38 The Maestro

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 11:49 AM

Not so fast, you are (one again) completely ignoring and disrespecting me, your own rules and therefor the whole base of this game and community. That should not be happening....



#39 Barbe Noire

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 12:01 PM

Hi everybody,

 

As said in an earlier post about M2C change account case this online tournament is the first one and the issue raised by the maestro is putting in evidence a second situation where the available/applicable rules are not totally clear and subject to possible different interpretation. I wish again to express my opinion that some indulgence has to be accepted for this first tournament. All lesson's learnt from it shall be duely noted and taken into consideration in order to improve the rules of future online tournament.

As I have been the previous opponent of DK in this tournament I can confirm that also in the game against me he started the match with just moving around 3-4 pièces without any attack for about 20-30 minutes. This forced me to change tactics and be more aggressive and take more risks. It turns out that I became weaker after this and as I was unable to catch back at the end I lost the game. In my match the tactics of DK was totally correct from a "rules" point of view as we both had equal chances and only 1 victory was sufficient to be qualified for next round. I just learned from it to be more careful with players starting a match with almost no moves and it will help me for future similar situations.

However in the case of the match between DK and The Maestro this tactics to not attack and move just strict minimum in the beginning of the match gives an advantage for the player who has won the first match out of 3, because effectively if the rules shall be understood as "best score after 3 matches" than the player who won the first match has just to ensure minimum 2 ties to be qualified for next round. And to get 2 ties you basically only need to not attack and move just minimum until your opponent gets fed up and accepts a tie. In this case the tie of the second match gives an advantage to the player who won the first match. I believe that for next tournament this rule shall be revised as well as the objective of a tie is precisely to provide a tie, not to provide a better chance of qualification to one player. Also the "best out of 3" is not sufficiently clear as this terminology is also used in tennis where it clearly means that who wins 2 matches out of 3 is qualified. In order to avoide this difference of interpretation of the rule "best out of 3 matches" I see 2 possibilities:

1) In tennis at some point in time the tennis world association agree to create the new rule of "tie break" to avoide neverending matches. Maybe some similar new rule shall be defined for stratego as well

2) the rule "best out of 3 matches" shall be reformulated to " A player is qualified for next round as soon as he has 2 victories ".

I wish also to say that even if the organizers of the tournament confirm that the rule "best out of 3 matches" doesn't mean to have 2 victories, the fact is that this rule is not properly formulated and I personnally understood it the same way The Maestro understood it. Again I believe all participants to the tournament really love this game and everybody wants it to be a success. So I appeal for some indulgence for this first world online tournament and ask the organizers to take good not of this to improve the rules for next tournaments.

 

Barbe Noire


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#40 The Maestro

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 12:20 PM

I applaud that point of view Barbe Noire, which also shows that proper, logical thinking is not an age question ;-). But as I said before there is much more going on here. I really don't care about winning or losing. I lost plenty of games and there will be a lot more to come. However, don't mess with rules, people and respect. And THAT is the big issue here (and it is not at all, all about or just this game). It is the way things are handeled, or even better the total LACK of it. 

 

Think about best of 7 series in Basketball, or tennis, baseball etc that have this And as I said before in ALL future editions of this tourney it CAN only be BEST of 3 meaning 2 WINS, otherwise you kill the game (just as Dekaeneas Spy also stated). There is no reason at all to not already put in effect now either, unless it is an ego/powertrip thing.

 

Again this has nothing to do anymore with my game because that one is over anyway on other grounds, that leave no room for discussion because it would otherwise open Pandora's box and should allow EVERY player to ask for breaks on other people's turns.

 

But even in that case they just ignore it....

 

As I said the real problems here are way bigger....






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