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#1201 LearningThisGame

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:18 PM

Kriss Kross has submitted two screenshots and a complaint of voyager99 refusing a tie in an allegedly forced drawn position. The case is being reviewed.


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#1202 SpacemanSpiff

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 05:54 AM

Spiff, as LTG said earlier, yes we have gone over this before.  To start assuming people who have two or more accounts as cheaters is wrong.  If that is the case all the programmers, staff, and including us the JC..including myself would be cheaters too then.  I agree that the rule needs to be updated, but to call out people in public because they have another name isn't fitting here and this needs to stop now.  I respect much of what you have written in the past and agreed with much of it, but here I disagree.  

 

Midnight,

There was very good reason for the rule to be stated in the Ts & Cs, because multiple accounts gives players an unfair advantage - it is not up for debate. Just because this site has made no attempt to enforce it's own rule and that players, admins, and programmers have created multiple accounts despite the rule only strengthens the case that this site allows, perhaps encourages, unfairness by means of multiple accounts.

 

I concede that this issue is difficult to completely enforce so in order to provide the necessary transparency, this site should create a pinned forum page to list all known alias of players as a reference page. This would be a living document that would be continually updated. I know of another Stratego site that has done the exact thing in an effort to promote fairness - bravo to Metaforge. This should be no problem for Stratego.com as players should gladly offer all of their alias information in the interest of fairness and good sportsmanship - correct??? Or would they be reluctant to give up their advantage? :ph34r:

 

Of course it would be easiest for the multiple account player to simple announce his/her identity via chat before the game begins to ensure fairness - don't you think? Guess how many players have done that with me? Ok, I'll tell you - one single player (Kudos to MasterYoda/BuffetKing). Yet I have become aware of more than 20 players with multiple accounts that have kept their dirty little secrets - what does that tell you? It tells me that the overwhelming majority of players with multiple accounts do not want to give up their advantage and that sportmanship and fairness is not a top priority for them. Hence why I felt compelled to come forward with the truth on the forum.

 

I don't understand how it is OK to call out by name glitch cheaters for all to see on this forum but the little white lie multiple account cheaters must be kept hush-hush? Is it because glitch cheating is a felony offense but multiple account cheating is just a misdemeanor and considering that the staff is doing it, it must be OK? Why the double standard? Fair is fair.

 

Spiff


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#1203 Midnightguy

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:36 AM

Spiff the main reason this rule was created when the site first opened, there were concerns by actually abuse taking place that a player would make two accounts to face himself and throw a match to the other name to build a higher rank faster.  The site was able to fix it where the game would know to block matches of two names with the same ISP facing one another.  Also with the match randomizer and now having the lobby with 100 or more players constantly playing, its very difficult to ever get a match vs ones self anyway.  If I was able to find where programmer M-D said that months ago, I'd show you the link. 

 

I will tell you that I have a hard enough time remembering my last game vs a player than to worry about playing someone a few days ago.  I believe most people are like that as well, so its unlikely a player will remember every spot where a bomb, flag, Marshal is at.  I have a number of setups over 10 saved and every game I switch a number of guys around, I try never to be consistent. 

 

Anyway, to appease your concerns about me being unfair or even a cheater in my games, I'll will provide you and the forum my names: White Knight, Sargent Bilko, JustaNoob, Captain Freedom.  I haven't played on them lately.    



#1204 GaryLShelton

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 06:55 AM

Midnight,

There was very good reason for the rule to be stated in the Ts & Cs, because multiple accounts gives players an unfair advantage - it is not up for debate. Just because this site has made no attempt to enforce it's own rule and that players, admins, and programmers have created multiple accounts despite the rule only strengthens the case that this site allows, perhaps encourages, unfairness by means of multiple accounts.

 

I concede that this issue is difficult to completely enforce so in order to provide the necessary transparency, this site should create a pinned forum page to list all known alias of players as a reference page. This would be a living document that would be continually updated. I know of another Stratego site that has done the exact thing in an effort to promote fairness - bravo to Metaforge. This should be no problem for Stratego.com as players should gladly offer all of their alias information in the interest of fairness and good sportsmanship - correct??? Or would they be reluctant to give up their advantage? :ph34r:

 

Of course it would be easiest for the multiple account player to simple announce his/her identity via chat before the game begins to ensure fairness - don't you think? Guess how many players have done that with me? Ok, I'll tell you - one single player (Kudos to MasterYoda/BuffetKing). Yet I have become aware of more than 20 players with multiple accounts that have kept their dirty little secrets - what does that tell you? It tells me that the overwhelming majority of players with multiple accounts do not want to give up their advantage and that sportmanship and fairness is not a top priority for them. Hence why I felt compelled to come forward with the truth on the forum.

 

I don't understand how it is OK to call out by name glitch cheaters for all to see on this forum but the little white lie multiple account cheaters must be kept hush-hush? Is it because glitch cheating is a felony offense but multiple account cheating is just a misdemeanor and considering that the staff is doing it, it must be OK? Why the double standard? Fair is fair.

 

Spiff

 

It is encouraging to see The Maestro and Spaceman Spiff both coming out against multiple accounts.  I had thought the issue was long dead.  I have previously written that we should either drop the rule against multiple accounts or enforce it.  It is a dirty little secret that lives on this site due to a discrete gentleman's agreement that it should.  

 

To me it is a clear cut fact that multiple accounts are against the rules.  No, they are not capital crimes, but they are nonetheless prohibited in the code for Stratego.com. This fact cannot be contested.  Spaceman Spiff has given clear evidence.  

 

I think the only question that I would like to see answered is maybe a short discussion of why.  Why should multiple accounts should be banned?  Why do we have the rule in the first place?  Surely it is advisable to err on the side of caution and not toss out this injunction against more than one account.  If the original founders put it there, what were their reasons? 

 

Also, if we did put up a living document pinned list announcing every known alias, how would its accuracy be determined?  If it is a contributor-driven list, then I fear we'd have Wikipedia-like problems, as everyone knows Wikipedia's reputation is questionable at the least.

 

GLS


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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/
Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931

#1205 The Maestro

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:20 AM

A few things: 

 

1. why do we still have this Cheaters post (now page 61), when it is super easy to open an new one right away called Cheaters 2014.

 

2. Then we can also keep THAT post stricty for the "ban the cheaters procedure" like reporting, providing evidence and a decision by the review committe.

 

3. We now have a good sticky post on Cheating and Abuse - Rules and Guidance  so let's keep that discussion there.

 

4. We also have a thread on the seperation of Powers etc, which seems to have strange yet close connection to these isssues, so you maybe some remarks can be posted there as well: SEPERATION OF POWERS: Moderators, TC, "JC" ; an open letter

 

I will go to those topics now and post my thoughts on things. Hopefully this 61 pages post can finally be closed and a new one can be opened and will be kept clean.



#1206 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:32 AM

I'm not sure this is the best forum to place this post but I'm putting it here because the most recent posts about multiple accounts are here.

My points are the following:

1) The Terms and Conditions clause 4.2 refers to unfair practices like using special computer programs, viruses or alike to get not deserved victories. This includes a reference to the use of multiple accounts with an unfair intention for example in order to make 2 of your accounts play against each other and have one always losing and the other always winning. This would be unfair as it would increase the ranking of a player who has always cheated and who probably doesn't know how to really beat an opponent. This case is already limited to the minimum because of the random match selection and the extremely low probability to have this happening. Because the clause refers to unfair practices only (The Maestro you can certainly confirm that the context of this clause 4.2 is only about unfair practices, the intention of this clause is not to condemn the use of multiple accounts when the objectives of these multiple accounts is different and clearly without intention to be unfair nor to get not deserved victories). I have various reasons to recognize the rights to have multiple accounts (without intention to be unfair), for example:

2) When different members of the same family wants to play, they all want to have their own account. Of course because they are in the same family it is most likely that they will have the same IP address. Is this unfair?

3) Some players may find it quite difficult to reach the 1080 points of Satan-NL, so they prefer to fight for other objectives like trying to be bronze N°1 or trying to be the highest ranked player with 100% victories. this is not an exhaustive list of objectives. Is this behaviour unfair?

4) Players may want to fight against themselves. So when they have reached a certain rank with their account N°1 they play with account N°2 until it beats the rank of N°1, then they play again account N°1 until it beats account N°2 and so on... In this way a player can keep trace of his personal highest reached rank. Is this unfair? As you can understand from other posts the top players Satan-NL and Sohal are now both playing with their second account. I completely understand that the 1080 points of Satan-NL is really a challenge that shall be kept in the records and visible in the ranking list, this is like an all time world record. We shall not "clean" the account of Satan-NL just because he is playing with his second account, are you ok with that statement?

 

Having said that I agree also that having a way to make it visible to all a list of "accounts per IP address"  would be a good thing. If the Keesing contact person is able to ban all accounts of a cheater it means this information is somehow available. Any possibility to make it visible to all?

 

Another point that could also be interesting and useful is to have the possibility for a player to self-clean his accounts. I'm the first one to have old and unused accounts that I would be pleased to get rid of.

 

Napoleon 1er


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#1207 The Maestro

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:38 AM

Good questions Napoleon 1er,

 

There is a good sticky post on Cheating and Abuse - Rules and Guidance that I Think should be the place for that, so we can keep this post for reporting cheaters....This was is gets very confusing....maybe you can repost it there and delete this one....



#1208 LearningThisGame

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:22 PM

A few things: 

 

1. why do we still have this Cheaters post (now page 61), when it is super easy to open an new one right away called Cheaters 2014.

 

 

This idea is under consideration. However, there are some mechanics that are affected by starting a new thread (for example, the way the review committee is able to search one forum comprehensively for previous cases, reports, etc. and compare them as needed against current cases). While not impossible to search multiple fora (as we have to assume you would argue for a Cheaters 2014, 2015, 2016 thread, etc.), this creates some logistical distractions and annoyances for both the committee and for players looking for a single source of cheater information/reports.

 

I presume the main thing you have issue with is the length of the thread and having to click two buttons to get to the end of the thread? Or is there something else that primarily concerns you? Yes, it is not hard to create a new Cheaters 2014 thread, but I want to make sure we have thought through all the implications before hastily making a change to an established thread.

 

I would also like to consult the admins to see if and how they use the current Cheaters Report thread before automatically making the change which you propose. 


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#1209 The Maestro

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:29 PM

OK clear, it's not about being lazy, but things remaining readable. But if there are some technical difficulties I understand they have to be dealt with first. And yes I would like yearly Cheaters Topics and also for them to stay clean. ie just reports, screenshots, decisions. All other discussions in other topics. 

 

I still hope there will be a new thread soon (since most cases in the current post have been dealt with anyway).



#1210 Gaius Marius

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 03:53 AM

First I just want to thank the admins for doing such a good job.  All of u whining about them, haha they don't get paid.  Be happy they care at all.  Second.  Thanks, I had no idea you could glitch someone by offering a tie on their turn.  I just thought a tie in and of itself would cause a glitch possibly, and I did not want to glitch but had to offer a tie seeing as there was no other possibility.  Third, thank you for clarifying that running like a fool and wasting time is against the rules, when i figure out how to take a screen shot (lol Im a noob)  I'll help us fight these cheaters.  And Fourth, I only create multiple names because on one I like to play hard and on the other I like to try new things and not worry about rank, I don't try to search players out to get them, that's silly.  And I think that we should revamp the rules.  The multiple account rule is stupid.  Cheaters will find a way, no matter if its with other accounts or just glitching.  I told Midnightguy about an article online where people download software to remember where a persons pieces are permanently once they have been revealed, he had the article removed.  But since this has been proposed as the solution.  My names are Jonneypro, Gaius Marius, and Audie Murphy.


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#1211 maribo

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 04:58 AM

It is quite ironic how the powers that be here can decide what is unfair, what is cheating and what is not. To have a second account that you use and rotate back and forth between two different usernames does put the opponent at a disadvantage regardless of whether or not it is the same setup used or a different setup. The cheater knows the others tendencies, but the honest 1 nick player assumes he is playing someone for the first time and is not sure of what to expect from someone he has never seen.

 

On the other hand there is a penalty if you ask for a draw from someone (see Gaius Marius), who is playing an unwinnable game for either side and trying to cheat his way to a win by making it too much of a time challenge for Gaius to stay online for an extra hour while the opponent smirks at him. In this case the honest person must prove his innocence with screen shots yet he get banned.

 

It is unnatural to click your request for a draw based on whose turn it is. But you're guilty if you ask for a draw unless you stop and think about this and that and get your mspaint program ready.



#1212 Koan

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 08:53 AM

It's unbelievable that there is so much cheating at this site, and nothing is being done about it.  Moreover, it seems that I gain three points when I win a game but I lose 17 points when my opponent wins.  Have there been other complaints about this?  Is anyone looking into this or is this just another thing we have to live with, like the cheating?  You're either getting cheated by another player, or reamed by the system when you lose a game.  I don't think I want to waste my time at this site anymore,  and I have unused battle coins that I would like to be refunded for.  How does one go about getting a  refund?



#1213 The Maestro

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 10:54 AM

Good points maribo, I think you should post things like this in Cheating and Abuse - Rules and Guidance and complaints about the powers that be in SEPERATION OF POWERS: Moderators, TC, "JC" ; an open letter . Then we can use this topic just to report cheaters. 

 

Same for Barracuda and Gaius.



#1214 LearningThisGame

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 03:18 PM

It's unbelievable that there is so much cheating at this site, and nothing is being done about it.  Moreover, it seems that I gain three points when I win a game but I lose 17 points when my opponent wins.  Have there been other complaints about this?  Is anyone looking into this or is this just another thing we have to live with, like the cheating?  You're either getting cheated by another player, or reamed by the system when you lose a game.  I don't think I want to waste my time at this site anymore,  and I have unused battle coins that I would like to be refunded for.  How does one go about getting a  refund?

 

I agree that it seems there has been a lot of cheating recently, and I am sorry for that. We have reason to believe that it is due to a small group of repeated cheaters who know they are going to be banned once the admins return from their holiday, and as such, are trying to irritate as many people as possible as they go down in flames. The best thing to do in the interim is clearly to document the cheating attempt and report it, as well as quickly to move to the next fair game.

 

See my response in http://forum.strateg...und/#entry10715. It seems you are likely not being cheated by the system but need a better explanation on how the rating system works?


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#1215 LearningThisGame

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 03:23 PM

 

On the other hand there is a penalty if you ask for a draw from someone (see Gaius Marius), who is playing an unwinnable game for either side and trying to cheat his way to a win by making it too much of a time challenge for Gaius to stay online for an extra hour while the opponent smirks at him. In this case the honest person must prove his innocence with screen shots yet he get banned.

 

 

This is a blatantly incorrect and inaccurate representation. If a game is truly not winnable, then you are perfectly welcome to request a draw on your own turn without penalty. You can also, within reason, also make tie requests when the game position doesn't favor you as long as it is on your turn; this is unsportsmanlike, though. 

 

The committee responsible for reviewing cases has also repeatedly and clearly indicated (and practically demonstrated) that dragging on positions that are clearly not winnable may be subject to penalty, so actually the truth today is almost 100% the opposite of what you represent, above. While still being refined, this post (http://forum.strateg...mments-welcome/) may help correct your misunderstandings.

 

Keep in mind, though, that there have been cases where someone thought - incorrectly - that a game was not winnable when there were indeed chances for their opponent to win and a tie refusal was reasonable. In such cases, the one accusing does have the burden of proof to demonstrate that the individual is dragging out the game and making no genuine attempt to win the game. Yes, this burden of proof is a pain sometimes, but it is based on the principle of presuming someone is innocent until proven otherwise (or clear demonstration that they should have reasonably been aware that what they were doing was unacceptable). 

 

 

 

It is unnatural to click your request for a draw based on whose turn it is. 

 

 

I agree that this is not the most natural, and all of us wish this were not necessary (either due to having no cheaters or having no bugs). However, it is necessary for the time being until the site has a chance to resolve the known glitch bug. It is also really not a very difficult rule to follow.


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#1216 Midnightguy

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 05:15 PM

This thread is officially closed and we will go over cheater reports monthly, please give us your reports under the current month.  We will also do a separate topic for drawl refusal and another for abusive behavior  



#1217 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 06:44 PM

Justice committee is in the pleasant position to announce the final end of the war against tie-request ghlitchers!!!
                    tie-break request bug has been fixed

       and all the fair members of our community can celebrate with us a big victory.

 

All the tie-ghlitchers now can rest in eternity
I wish god of Stratego forgive them for their crimes.
Our committee will keep on working  in other fields with final target to make this site a real paradise for our favorite sport.


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#1218 Luckypapa

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:05 PM

So we can try it out? :)

Lucky

It is realy a great result guys! I am proud on you!

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#1219 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:16 PM

Excellent news Karaiskakis, champain for every fair player!!!. :P

Who did that? Does it mean that now even if somebody asks for tie request on your turn you have no risk of beeing glitched? Has anything else been changed or updated in the program?

 

Safe future to all, see you on the battlefield.

 

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#1220 Dekaeneas-Spy

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:30 PM

Congratulations to Justice Committee (JC)and to all the players who they helped to getting caught the cheaters but also to all those who play fair.

A big thank you to the developers of the site.I wish to GIVE and other solutions.

 

 

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