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#41 Yellowhat

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 11:02 AM

You're not right Lonello. Our 'stuitje' is not a rudimentary organ. There are some muscles  connected to it, and if you remove your 'stuitje' it won't smell very good in your house, if you know what I mean! And if rudimentary organs exist, they're not proof for evolution, but for degeneration! 

Evolutionists say that it remains from the tail our 'ancestors' had. Now we have no tail anymore, because it was 'not needed anymore.' But imagine, how handy would it be to have a tail!  :)


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#42 Fairway

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 11:56 AM

There is no god.

An omniscient being would never resort to trail and error. 

A god who experiences emotions is impossible. 

 

We humans experience emotion because we don't know what is to come. A god who becomes angry is impossible. 

Why this assumption? Is there a rule that an omniscient being cannot? Being a non-believer you have no right to this claim.  Why can't a God show emotions? What prevents Him from doing so?


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#43 TheOptician

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 11:57 AM

And if complexity necessitates a designer, then who designed God?

#44 Lonello

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 12:08 PM

not proof for evolution, but for degeneration! 

Evolutionists say that it remains from the tail our 'ancestors' had. Now we have no tail anymore, because it was 'not needed anymore.' But imagine, how handy would it be to have a tail

 

I'm not getting this. Yes, the degenerated gills proove we were once fish. So I agree with you it's degeneration. Which is evidence for evolution.

 

So you are agreeing indeed that mankind once had tails too. Well, then we're completely on the same path.

 

It's just that the Bible says otherwise. Gary always demands Earth only exists for a few thousands years. That, he got from the Bible. I'm glad you see it like I do though :)!

 

Our Universe Has Trillions of Galaxies, latest Hubble Study of this week: http://www.space.com...cial_spc_514648

 

Cu0AJZJUAAMR__p.jpg


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#45 Conspiracy Theorist

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 04:10 PM

And if complexity necessitates a designer, then who designed God?

 

This is a very interesting point that a lot of atheists use. However, the scientific explanation for the origins of the universe relies on the same reasoning - namely what created the big bang? One can not back-pedal on that thought process indefinitely, there must have been something or someone that has existed for eternity. 

 

I was raised a Catholic as a child but I do not practice my faith now. I suppose now I would be classified as an agnostic: I am open-minded about all arguments and theories but presently I am unsure what to believe. 


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#46 The Prof

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 04:31 PM

And if complexity necessitates a designer, then who designed God?

 

All things that come into being require a designer, or at least a cause, but anything that has always existed does not require a cause, as it does not make sense to talk about what came before.  An eternal being therefore needs no designer.  The universe, on the other hand, has been shown by big bang cosmology to have had a definite beginning, and therefore does require a designer, and quite an intelligent one at that, as there are many constants of physics that must be very precisely fine-tuned for the possibility of life to exist.


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#47 Yellowhat

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 05:53 PM

I'm not getting this. Yes, the degenerated gills proove we were once fish. So I agree with you it's degeneration. Which is evidence for evolution.

 

So you are agreeing indeed that mankind once had tails too. Well, then we're completely on the same path.

 

It's just that the Bible says otherwise. Gary always demands Earth only exists for a few thousands years. That, he got from the Bible. I'm glad you see it like I do though :)!

 

Our Universe Has Trillions of Galaxies, latest Hubble Study of this week: http://www.space.com...cial_spc_514648

 

Cu0AJZJUAAMR__p.jpg

Wow, do you seriously think humans have gills??

 

I don't say that humans have had tails, but if evolution was true, humans wouldn't have lost their tail.

 

And if the universe has lots of galaxies, that's just another proof for a Creator. Just look at them!


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#48 queenbee1

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 07:14 PM

Superstition, justification, curiosity, we all want to make sense of it. We live in a universe with universal laws. There is no proof that consciousness extends beyond our mortal bodies. That is just wishful thinking. Perhaps the universe expands and contracts and has done this a million times. Religion makes no more sense than Santa Claus and Fairy Tales. Some of you are drawing broad conclusions of a written word. A word written by men in a language you needed translated for you. Some of these men kept the words hidden from the masses to maintain power. Some even claim it is The Only Truth as if one truth fit all. 

 

Men over the centuries have taken women as they so desired and servants or slaves as well. It still happens to this day. All of this was condoned by the Truth keepers. Is there a truth about Slavery in this book you say holds the truth? Does it speak of women as being treated as chattel? That a child must be beaten into submission so that they learn to obey their parents?

 

Real life truth is not about the creation of the universe. It is rarely given a thought. DNA evolution happens too slowly for humans to able to witness it. However, how we treat each other is constantly evolving as we start to see the values that all humans bring to the table. Still to this day men control most of the levers of power. The priests are all men. The Imams are all men, most of the politicians are all men and in the US they are white men of european descent. The Blacks in this country are still not enjoying the same truth the white man has. As a result they have created a subculture that is operated on black market principles. No pun intended.

 

Now a woman dares enter the hallowed grounds of the White House and half of the Americans will vote for a lunatic rather than a woman. So when you speak of truth you are most likely speaking of the truth that Europeans and Americans of European descent control. Europe is evolving a little faster than the US. We had our first black President and now will have our first woman.

 

Some of you speak of "the truth" as if it were a mountain. Unchanging over time. The physical universe in changing, but the laws of physics is not. However, culturally the truth is constantly changing or Africans would still be slaves and women would not hold any positions of power. Women currently hold 4.4 percent of Fortune 500 CEO roles. Women are 50% of the population in the US and hold 20% of the positions in Congress.

 

So tell me again what is The Truth you hold so dear?



#49 Kernel Mustard

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 03:34 AM

 

I won't address every argument you made since I find this creation talk so interesting, but my question to you is, why do men and women have to have similar jobs? We are completely different individuals, with our own strengths and weaknesses. Men have more competitiveness and desire to lead, so it is very natural for more men to have positions in Congress and etc.

 

Without considering the US national election, I will say that I would prefer a man to be president over a woman, as in Isaiah 3:12 women ruling is a sign of judgement. It is more appropriate for a man to lead a nation than a woman.

 

The problem happens when you have unfair prejudice amongst one another. 

 

About your comments on slavery and such, please provide some form of example or bible verse.


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The earth is a flat plane:  https://www.youtube....dLUm8Db&index=2 Psalm 19:4 - 6, Rev 7:1


#50 astros

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 03:44 AM

Exodus 35:2

 

"Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death."

 

I consider Stratego to be a form of work. Good thing my parents are not idiots. They do not take a two thousand year old book written before the invention of toilet paper literally. Else, I would be stoned to death.


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#51 Kernel Mustard

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 03:58 AM

This was written to the Israelites before the new covenant. This is no longer necessary.


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The earth is a flat plane:  https://www.youtube....dLUm8Db&index=2 Psalm 19:4 - 6, Rev 7:1


#52 Lonello

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 09:49 AM

Wow, do you seriously think humans have gills??

I'm not saying anything myself. This is just plain science. It's evidence for poor design.

 

Just last week a woman in India gave birth to a baby with progeria. The baby was de facto already 90 years old, had long hair and organs that were as weak as that of a 90-year old. Age had set in at enormous speed in the woom already. Faulty design as we're seeing everywhere.

 

None of this takes back that there could be a Designer still. Listen to The Prof, who is a stronghold Christian. He acknowledges Evolution and the zillions of stars, lightyears and planets... the Big Bang. So there are many who belief in the same God you do, but still endorse Evolution. And accept there to be rudimentary gills in human beings, which is only a neutral fact.


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#53 Fairway

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 11:25 AM

I consider Stratego to be a form of work. Good thing my parents are not idiots. They do not take a two thousand year old book written before the invention of toilet paper literally. Else, I would be stoned to death.

Stratego, work? Never heard that one.


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#54 TheOptician

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 12:29 PM

I won't address every argument you made since I find this creation talk so interesting, but my question to you is, why do men and women have to have similar jobs? We are completely different individuals, with our own strengths and weaknesses. Men have more competitiveness and desire to lead, so it is very natural for more men to have positions in Congress and etc.

 

Without considering the US national election, I will say that I would prefer a man to be president over a woman, as in Isaiah 3:12 women ruling is a sign of judgement. It is more appropriate for a man to lead a nation than a woman.

 

The problem happens when you have unfair prejudice amongst one another. 

 

About your comments on slavery and such, please provide some form of example or bible verse.

 

Kernel, in one sentence you discriminate against women - 'it is more appropriate for a man to lead a nation than a woman'. 

 

In the following sentence you say that there is a problem when there is 'unfair prejudice'.

 

Are you recognising your own prejudice as 'fair'? There is no such thing as fair prejudice.

 

There are very many different religious texts and versions of 'God's word'. Even in researching the verse you quoted (Isaiah 3:12) there were a multitude of different versions available (none of them by the way, did I interpret as making any comment on which gender is more 'appropriate to lead').

 

Humans wrote these religious texts - these are human interpretations - and as such do we expect these words to be free from bias - to be free from the social and cultural views of the time? Of course not. If I asked you whether God considered all humans to be equal you would say of course they are created equal. But there are a great many discriminatory positions adopted in the Bible (the writers of the Bible), and the remnants of these positions are still evident in the religious discourse that we hear today. How do you know that the words in a particular verse come from God or from the writer of the verse? You surely will admit that the Bible is not a literary transcription of conversation! If you admit this, you must also admit that you cannot separate/isolate the input of the writer from the input of the Divine (even if you see the words as the product of God). I don't see God's signature on the last page.

 

But just because some writer ages ago can't avoid their personal or cultural bias (of the time) seeping into a religious text this doesn't mean that God shares the view of the writer. These verses are interpretations, a fact which seems so often ignored (which is ridiculous when every reader of the Bible is fully aware that they interpret their own meaning).

 

The God that I believe in is pro-equality. Little else matters, as this single value is the fundamental building block for every value. So it is ironic that the sources of discrimination that I observe in the modern age are often found in the places of religion.

 

You say 'men have more competitiveness and desire to lead', and cite these as strengths, which is interesting because I don't consider the pursuit of power a strength, and neither would your God. Our sexist society also punishes any women who display a desire to lead, solely for the reason you just cited as to why you would prefer a man. (Read the related topic https://thepolicy.us...187c#.qaelfhuv2 )

 

I call for members of religions everywhere to stop using ancient texts formed in cultures long ago, which embed their discriminations within their writings. God by the way, is still around today, and she wouldn't stand for this perversion of her values. 


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#55 queenbee1

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 06:30 PM

KM truly an abysmal comment and I am done with this topic. It doesn't surprise me, but I was deeply offended.


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#56 Kernel Mustard

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 07:20 PM

 

This is an important topic, and you brought up a lot of points and I want to respond to all of them, though I need some time with other things I need to do. As this thread is so hot please give me a day or two to respond.


Edited by Kernel Mustard, 16 October 2016 - 07:43 PM.

The earth is a flat plane:  https://www.youtube....dLUm8Db&index=2 Psalm 19:4 - 6, Rev 7:1


#57 The Prof

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 10:05 PM

Listen to The Prof, who is a stronghold Christian. He acknowledges Evolution and the zillions of stars, lightyears and planets... the Big Bang. So there are many who belief in the same God you do, but still endorse Evolution. 

 

Just to clarify, I do not, and have never endorsed naturalistic evolution, nor do I subscribe to theistic evolution.  I do not believe that natural selection working on random mutations (the vast majority of which are either harmful or neutral to the organism) can explain the history of life on this planet.  I am an old-Earth, or progressive, creationist.  I do believe that the universe is about 14 billion years old and that the big bang origin of the universe and approximately 4.5 billion year age of the earth are scientifically indisputable.  Furthermore, I see evidence of purpose and design in the events that led to the formation of planet Earth (a just right star and just right supernova explosions at just the right time and distance to provide the planet with right quantities of all the elements it would need) and I see the fossil record as evidence of God preparing the planet for human beings through previous life forms.  There are many examples, but just to give two:  A billion years of sulfate reducing bacteria removed toxic heavy metals from the atmosphere and concentrated them into ores that humans could use, and millions of generations bio-deposits were laid down which are the source of our fossil fuels that power civilization.  All species except for those with very high populations, small sizes, and short generation spans, such as bacteria, are more likely to go extinct before they can evolve into a new species.  The fossil record shows a repeating pattern of millions of years of no change, then mass extinctions, and then the sudden appearance of new species.  I believe this is best explained by a creator intervening at the appropriate times to replace species that go extinct with new species, all with an eye toward preparing the planet for humanity.  


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#58 Kernel Mustard

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 05:30 AM

Kernel, in one sentence you discriminate against women - 'it is more appropriate for a man to lead a nation than a woman'. 

 

Ok, so the word discrimination is normally used with a negative connotation. If we remove this connotation, than I will certainly agree that the Bible discriminates. As well as you, me, and everyone else.

 

Discrimination based on sex: in sports there are boy teams and girl teams, in movies we have boy parts and girl parts, in marriages a man often keeps his last name, in politics a man is normally the leader, in jobs there are many instances of discrimination, .

 

Discrimination based on race: in movies we have parts requiring certain national origin, in law enforcement police officers may order their suspects based on racial analysis.

 

And then there are other things we discriminate about which are fairly obvious: age, strength, mental abilities, etc.

 

Discrimination based on all of the above can be good. But it can also be evil.

 

 

 

You say 'men have more competitiveness and desire to lead', and cite these as strengths, which is interesting because I don't consider the pursuit of power a strength, and neither would your God. Our sexist society also punishes any women who display a desire to lead, solely for the reason you just cited as to why you would prefer a man.

The pursuit of power isn't what I said. What I mean is that men would want to lead more than women would, generally.

 

 

 

 

Humans wrote these religious texts - these are human interpretations - 

You might not like this but for those who can accept it, 2 Peter 1:20 denies that prophecies of scripture come from anything but God. Now, would this also apply to all of Paul's letters, and even the letter I just quoted from? Well, I think it's good to absorb these writings similarly to how it was originally purposed, while also understanding that certain aspects of culture (commonness of head coverings, for example) may be different now than they were then.

 

 

 

The God that I believe in is pro-equality. Little else matters, as this single value is the fundamental building block for every value.

What does equality even mean? Does everyone have to be equal? People differ from each other in many ways. 


Edited by Kernel Mustard, 17 October 2016 - 05:50 AM.

The earth is a flat plane:  https://www.youtube....dLUm8Db&index=2 Psalm 19:4 - 6, Rev 7:1


#59 Yellowhat

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 07:38 AM

I'm not saying anything myself. This is just plain science. It's evidence for poor design.

 

Just last week a woman in India gave birth to a baby with progeria. The baby was de facto already 90 years old, had long hair and organs that were as weak as that of a 90-year old. Age had set in at enormous speed in the woom already. Faulty design as we're seeing everywhere.

 

None of this takes back that there could be a Designer still. Listen to The Prof, who is a stronghold Christian. He acknowledges Evolution and the zillions of stars, lightyears and planets... the Big Bang. So there are many who belief in the same God you do, but still endorse Evolution. And accept there to be rudimentary gills in human beings, which is only a neutral fact.

Saying that humans have gills is not science at all. I don't know what kind of organism you are, but I don't have gills. 

 

Progeria is one of the results of Genesis 3.

 

If many people endorse evolution, that doesn't make it true 

Many people endorsed racial discrimination, that does not say it is right. 

 

The only evolution I believe in is micro-evolution, you can also call it variation. All other kinds of evolution are pure imagination. 

 

And... if your brain is the result of a blind chance process, how can you trust your own thoughts?


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#60 Lonello

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 10:31 AM

Yeah, right. Evangelicals will always deny science, that's for sure. Where is the time gone Earth was still flat and the sun revolved around Earth? I miss those times ;)! But we've got some new ones, like still claiming the universe only exists for a few thousands years.

Science proves though Earth is nothing special in the universe. I see you have a hard time fighting the professor, Yellowhat. I still do want to see you try counter

 

I do believe that the universe is about 14 billion years old and that the big bang origin of the universe and approximately 4.5 billion year age of the earth are scientifically indisputable.  Furthermore, I see evidence of purpose and design in the events that led to the formation of planet Earth (a just right star and just right supernova explosions at just the right time and distance to provide the planet with right quantities of all the elements it would need) and I see the fossil record as evidence of God preparing the planet for human beings through previous life forms.  There are many examples, but just to give two:  A billion years of sulfate reducing bacteria removed toxic heavy metals from the atmosphere and concentrated them into ores that humans could use, and millions of generations bio-deposits were laid down which are the source of our fossil fuels that power civilization.  All species except for those with very high populations, small sizes, and short generation spans, such as bacteria, are more likely to go extinct before they can evolve into a new species.  The fossil record shows a repeating pattern of millions of years of no change, then mass extinctions, and then the sudden appearance of new species.  I believe this is best explained by a creator intervening at the appropriate times to replace species that go extinct with new species, all with an eye toward preparing the planet for humanity.  


Lo




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