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New Site Ranking (Suggestion)


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#41 sevenseas

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 06:02 PM

I would migrate to gravon if there was a larger playerbase there


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#42 The Prof

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 06:09 PM

... does it also mean that in case you win a game against a much lower player then your ranking may decrease because overall you've on average played against lower ranked players?

 

No, under KRACH your rating will never be lower as a result of winning a game than had you not played it.  Similarly a player's ranking will never increase as the result of a loss.  We noticed this type of thing did occur with the RPI rating system we used in our NASF Regular Season, but it doesn't occur with KRACH.  The way this works is that when you win games it shifts weight in Opponent's KRACH average toward higher rated opponents.  Now, it does happen that your rating will adjust slightly downward when your previous opponents lose games.



#43 GaryLShelton

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 06:45 PM

play on a phone ?? useless to me

 

 

I suspect to many that's not the case.  Do you know if Gravon is usable on any wireless devices?



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#44 don mitsos

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 08:10 PM

metaforge is dead to me

gravon is the site, it's not that easy to start playing there but as soon as you are allowed to play ranked games, it's ok

What do you mean it's not easy to start playing. I have visited the site and it is really awful aesthetically. Also in order to play someone is obliged to download an .exe file which i assume is the application but it is never safe considering that you never know exactly what information this program leaches!!!! No wonder there are few people left there!!!!

The way i see it, it is like when you have 2 plates of your favorite food cooked from 2 different chef. The first one looks really nice and delicious but it does't taste so good. The second looks pretty bad and you have to eat it with your unwashed hands but actually tastes better than the first one. I wonder what you were going to choose!!!!


Edited by don mitsos, 18 December 2016 - 08:11 PM.

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#45 Gwynplaine

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 08:32 PM

The way i see it, it is like when you have 2 plates of your favorite food cooked from 2 different chef. The first one looks really nice and delicious but it does't taste so good. The second looks pretty bad and you have to eat it with your unwashed hands but actually tastes better than the first one. I wonder what you were going to choose!!!!

 

Hey, Don Mitsos, I think you are blocking...please tell us how you really feel about this...I mean...just let it all out. You're with family and friends here...

 

:lol:  :D  :lol:  :D  :lol:  :D  ! ! !

 

Great comparison!


Edited by Gwynplaine, 18 December 2016 - 08:32 PM.

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#46 Master Mind

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 06:30 AM

Another question: Do only NSR people who play a ranked game, earn points or do non-NSR players also gain points when playing ranked?



#47 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 07:26 AM

Only games with one NSR player against another NSR player will count for the ranking. If one non NSR player is involve the game does not count for the ranking

Another question: Do only NSR people who play a ranked game, earn points or do non-NSR players also gain points when playing ranked?


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#48 Losermaker

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 11:04 AM

It is true that Gravon is harder to get into and does not have as smooth a look.

 

from what I see these are going to be the first things to put a player off when going to gravon.

 

1. The website gravon.de may be in German, you have to go to gravon.net to get the english.

2. Registration is not instant and may take a few days.

3. Once registration is in the player gets in and finds the rooms a bit confusing and then finds they have to apply to be able to play ranked (minimum 2 weeks wait).

4. Once allowed to play ranked the player finds there are not as many players as here and the graphics are not as nice and you have to get used to pressing the 'ok' button. However after playing a few, if you like fast games like me, you find that your games are 10-15 mins shorter and it also has bronstein clock for auto draws. 

 

After the player has gotten through these stages (a week or two of playing) the player will probably like it. You just launch java, sign in and can have quick games with perfect rules and admins active and online. It has a good ranking system and only takes a few games to reach your true level. It also has yearly ranking boards as well as all time. People can watch games (great for tournaments) however this is not required if you dont like people watching you can turn it off. It also has personal stats, and all game history. Another great thing is having all the variants, barrage was popular at metaforge and is great if you want a quick game. Gravon offers all variants (Cls, barrage, duell (quick arena but on proper board), and Ultimate lightning. Some of these are very interesting variants and a whole new set of skill required.

 

For me its better as I like faster and better opponents, but you have to accept the graphics (I couldn't care less for a better game)

 

Some have made the move (myself, hielco, sohal, brainiac and 7seas and texaspete have accounts) if we could get around another 20 people over I think it would be alot better.

 

Losermaker


Edited by Losermaker, 19 December 2016 - 11:12 AM.

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#49 cflag

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 11:33 AM

Losermaker you made a great descritpion,but the point is that  the last 1-2 years you cant  find opponent over there easily,thats why most players have moved here.
Also in my opinion gravon is better place only for experienced players and probably for some adults ,but for kids it's a ''nightmare''.

Edited by cflag, 19 December 2016 - 11:35 AM.


#50 Sohal

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 12:00 PM

i agree gravon'sgraphics hurts at some point, but after a few games you'll used to it.

I even do not pay attention to graphics anymore.

I'd say stratego.com animation are pointless

 

Thank you losermaker for your post, very well described.



#51 Lonello

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 02:01 PM

This site has got enough tournaments that's for sure. It is just the alias-affected leaderboards that are lacking. Personally speaking, only about 3% of the games I play are tournament games - the rest are ranked, and I'm sure I'm not alone there.

Wow. Really? For me it's 100% are tournament games. 

 

But you're in TC, aren't you? So don't you find your score of 3% nasty then?

I suggest TC quatripples the amounts of tournaments. If more people are below 100% as you say they are, then obviously there's a strong cry for more tournaments.

 

 

play on a phone ?? useless to me

To me too. I am a digibete myself. But Gary is our technical expert. He was even on Scouts to help out the Singleplayer with his phone. For me, it seems a big hassle. I do play Chess on my phone but that's just 16 pieces and no graveyards. Even then I many times touch the wrong piece.


Lo

#52 TheOptician

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 03:56 PM

To bring this conversation back to the NSR:

1. What information regarding identification of players do the community think is necessary, whilst not invading privacy?

2. What is the best ranking method? Prof has suggested KRACH instead of ELO (of course you could have both)

3. I would be willing to volunteer to run a trial period, during which time we could assess the value of NSR, and any problems that arise. Would anyone else be prepared to volunteer (especially current members of any federations)?

#53 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 05:09 PM

To bring this conversation back to the NSR:

1. What information regarding identification of players do the community think is necessary, whilst not invading privacy?

 

Each federation their own criteria. It is their responsiblity to quarantee for the players who will participate in NSR. For those countries where there are no federations I propose to have a committee (including in this the responsibles for the clean list) which will decide about.

2. What is the best ranking method? Prof has suggested KRACH instead of ELO (of course you could have both)

 

KRACH is a method with many common points with kleier's method. It is very reliable and I propose to trust Prof's work who is the most expert person for such jobs

3. I would be willing to volunteer to run a trial period, during which time we could assess the value of NSR, and any problems that arise. Would anyone else be prepared to volunteer (especially current members of any federations)?

 

I am willing to help  :)


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#54 sevenseas

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 05:11 PM

I would be willing to help too


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#55 Master Mind

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 06:44 PM

Me too, although I'm not in a particular federation or so...



#56 The Prof

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 07:00 PM

I am also willing to help.  Here are some of my thoughts on how this could work.  I see two categories of NSR players.  Those who are known unique individuals, and those who are not.  Most of the players on the clean list will fall into the first category.   These players should be able to player unlimited friendly NSR ranked games against each other.   This would make here as good a place as Gravon for them to get quality ranked games. The second category are those we are not 100% sure they are not an alias of another NSR player.  New players who join NSR would surely be in this category.  These players should have restrictions on the number of ranked friendly games they can play against other NSR players.  Perhaps, no more than one per month against the same opponent, and no more than half of the NSR games can be friendly.  These restrictions are meant to deter the worst type of ranking abuse, which is that someone would repeatedly play against himself in friendlies to increase his main account NSR rating.

 

Here are what I see as the main functions of the NSR Committee, once one is established.

 

1.  Maintain a sortable log of all NSR game results (could be done in Excel):  Date, winner, loser, time of game, and number of moves, the latter two fields being necessary when investigating any suspicion of cheating.  This will require the most amount of work of the four steps.  This list of results should be public.

 

2.  Input the results into a spreadsheet.  This would likely just involve putting in numbers to represent wins, losses, or draws in a large grid, and numbers in another grid keeping track of the number of times any two opponents played.  

 

3. Periodically solve for all player ratings.  I think it would be reasonable to do this twice a week at first.  This is the step that requires the most technical expertise.   Steps 2 and 3 are different depending on whether the committee uses ELO or KRACH, but I have spreadsheet templates for both.

 

4.  Sort and display the rankings publicly in a format decided by the committee.

 

On #4, I would suggest a minimum number of games played per month (or other suitable time period) for a player to appear in the official ranking list (although, all NSR games count toward the rankings).  We don't want a player winning a few games in a row at the beginning and then stopping and sitting in a top spot for the whole year.

 

Just one more pitch for KRACH (although I'm not opposed to using both rankings if we have enough help), using ELO would discourage any friendlies against top players until they got up near their true level, since the ELO reward would be the same for beating a low level player as a high level player in the beginning, and ELO takes a long time for players to reach their true rating.



#57 TheOptician

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 07:52 PM

I think the criteria for registering confirmed accounts needs to be good enough so that we do not have any players on the NSR who we are not 100 % sure about. That would also keep it mathematically simpler - without having to worry about additional restrictions on certain players.

Agree with all the above functions. Goes without saying to add:

5. Maintain the NSR database of players, approve identification criteria of established federations, and establish new criteria for players outside of current federations.

Just a question on KRACH - is it a disadvantage to join the ranking system for a player who is still improving significantly? Do past results become less and less meaningful over time (like ELO)?

#58 don mitsos

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 10:53 PM

I would take it even further by proposing that all NSR members reset their accounts to 100. This would show that they don't care anymore about the site's ranking!!!!!



#59 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 11:49 PM

Me to ok to help if you are not enough already

I am also willing to help. Here are some of my thoughts on how this could work. I see two categories of NSR players. Those who are known unique individuals, and those who are not. Most of the players on the clean list will fall into the first category. These players should be able to player unlimited friendly NSR ranked games against each other.



Personnally i think that friendly games will distort the real ranking. Let's consider following example: The Prof and Napoleon 1er like each other so much that they play regularly 10 friendly games a month. Napoleon 1er is extremely happy because as he is much stronger he will win 100% of the time and these games are the only games he will play in the NSR.so with a 100% win ratio he is almost sure to be number 1 in the ranking.
The Prof is also very happy because playing against such a strong player than Napoleon 1er allows him to improve his skills and then helps him to win more against other players. As the 10 games he plays against Napoleon 1er are only 10% of all the games he plays the defeats he makes against Napoleon 1er are clearly offset by the additional victories he gets against other players.
The Prof and Napoleon 1er are 2 known players and nobody would put a doubt on their integrity. Basically none of these 2 players is doing anything wrong, both are playing at their usual frequency and both are playing always with the goal to win.

Clearly from this exaggerated example one can understand that friendly games will distort the real ranking. For the ranking to be representative of a certain reality it has to be based on randomly matched games.
A possible solution to that would be to fix a rule that stipulates what is the maximum number of games a player is allowed to play against the same player. And my guess is that this maximum number of games shall be function of a reasonable statistical distribution of the number of games per player. For example the first rule shall be that a player shall have neen matched against at least 10 other players randomly before he can start to play friendly games. And then 2nd rule shall be that he cannot play more than 3 friendly games against the same player as long as his average number of games played against all other players is 1. We could possibly say the number of friendly games played against a player should not exceed 3 times his average number of games played against each other player

I would take it even further by proposing that all NSR members reset their accounts to 100. This would show that they don't care anymore about the site's ranking!!!!!

The new NSR ranking will start from zero. So no need to reset the ELO tanking as it has no impact on NSR ranking. I guess a lot of NSR players would also like to continue ELO in parallel. You may discourage some NSR players if you impose a not necessary reset of ELO.


Furthermore in order to facilitate the update of the ranking i would suggest a web based interactive system where each player can put in his own victories himself and run the krash program himself (hopefully it takes only a few seconds for the system to update). So NSR management team only needs to control once or twice a week that everything is ok. In case a NSR player would have been found trying to abuse the system by inserting illegitimate victories he will be denied any further access to update or be excluded from NSR .
If you don't know where you go ... you have a lot of chance to arrive elsewhere ...

#60 don mitsos

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 12:17 AM

The new NSR ranking will start from zero. So no need to reset the ELO tanking as it has no impact on NSR ranking. I guess a lot of NSR players would also like to continue ELO in parallel. You may discourage some NSR players if you impose a not necessary reset of ELO.

 

I did't say that there is a need to reset ELO ranking for NSR ranking to work properly. I only expressed my belief in a movement of faith to the NSR ranking. I can understand your skepticism towards the success of NSR. I don't understand though why would anyone like to continue being in an inaccurate ranking!!!! After all you (not only you Napoleon) can have your second accounts present in the ELO ranking!!!!

 

Furthermore in order to facilitate the update of the ranking i would suggest a web based interactive system where each player can put in his own victories himself and run the krash program himself (hopefully it takes only a few seconds for the system to update). So NSR management team only needs to control once or twice a week that everything is ok. In case a NSR player would have been found trying to abuse the system by inserting illegitimate victories he will be denied any further access to update or be excluded from NSR .

 

If a web based system such as that you describe could be created it would be most helpful as i think that screenshots are not going to be provided by all the players.






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