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New Site Ranking (Suggestion)


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#21 TheOptician

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 07:43 PM

Re: tobermoryx

Why choose an option that 1. Requires admin help and 2. Removes 90% of 'suspected' aliases over an option that 1. Does not require admin help and 2. Removes 100% of all alias accounts?

Furthermore, as evidenced by the fact that 90% of players do have alias accounts (for varying different reasons) - there is clearly a desire for many to be able to have this option. Re-setting 'suspected' alias accounts I would argue isn't generally in the interest of the players anyway. And it certainly wouldn't be in the interest of the owners of the site to make any actions that are actually more likely to reduce apparent player activity.

Besides, as you cannot be SURE which accounts are aliases and which aren't in the current system - you'd end up with some injustices.

#22 tobermoryx

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 08:07 PM

People can have alias accounts for all i care (though why anyone needs 5 accounts to play friendlies i don't know) but only 1 on the leaderboard .

 

I'm not proposing even to ban the accounts  ,just put them down to 100 so they can still 'practice' or whatever it is they want to do with them.

 

My point is what most people really want is the actual site leaderboard to be credible so i am just proposing a way of making this happen.

 

So i'm not at all arguing against other ranking lists like Clean Ranking  ,NSR or tournament ranking , but naturally any person joining the site will look at the official leaderboards , it is not so natural for them to look on a forum and find links etc .

 

If we weren't sure that an account was an alias it would left alone , but there are literally hundreds that are beyond reasonable doubt as either aliases or dormant accounts.

 

Removing these accounts from the leaderboard would  not reduce apparent player activity as the leaderboard would become dynamic and people would see changes in the order every day rather than having accounts stuck in the top 20 that haven't played a game for 2 years.



#23 TheOptician

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 09:11 PM

As long as aliases are allowed on the Site leaderboard it will never be credible. Removing the inactive accounts will reduce the number of aliases on the site leaderboard (and it will certainly de-clutter the leaderboard), but any active aliases will remain. And as soon as you announce that eg any accounts that do not play within a month will be re-set, then owners of alias accounts will simply ensure they play once a month to avoid the re-set. 

 

For the community, it is not the inactive aliases that are the problem - it is the active aliases. I think that members of the forum would rather have a credible leaderboard (with no aliases) than an incredible leaderboard (with some aliases). Whether that leaderboard can physically be accessed through the Forum or the Gamesite is I think of far lower importance. (You could always attempt to convince admin to display the NSR - but that's a different conversation).


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#24 Yellowhat

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 09:17 PM

I like the idea of a New Site Ranking. If it will become real, I'll join!


Yellowhat is the literal translation of my surname.

#25 tobermoryx

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 09:42 PM

Doesn't this proposal depend upon players voluntarily participating and agreeing to send screenshots etc ?

 

So i think it  would be limited .

 

As currently the Clean Ranking is limited in not having forum members. So it seems just another way of having a limited ranking of forum participants.

 

And as soon as you announce that eg any accounts that do not play within a month will be re-set, then owners of alias accounts will simply ensure they play once a month to avoid the re-set. 

 

 

No  i think most alias accounts are not things that players are precious about . Mostly they will just be players wanting to start over and beat the score of their main account , then when it gets to the same level they just start the process again.

 

You see 4 or 5 obvious aliases grouped together within 5 ELO points , accounts with very similar names ,  or accounts of the same flag when no others of that flag are found within 100 points.



#26 TheOptician

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Posted 17 December 2016 - 10:25 PM

Yes the NSR would be limited to Forum members who wished to join. So it would be small, but it would be credible. This credibility is more important than the number of accounts in the ranking (we know this is a small community). But we are talking about a ranking - so a ranking that isn't credible isn't useful.

For me at least, a ranking that gets rid of 'most' aliases isn't good enough. It isn't just their presence on the leaderboard but the impact that their presence has on all the other rankings. And if we could convince the ranking to be displayed on the leaderboards tab - along with some actual sign-posting of the forum - then it might actually grow this small community.

People have been complaining about multiple accounts for years. This is a chance to bypass the effect that they have. We will never stop all aliases - they will always play in the playground. But we can create a members club which they cannot access.

#27 GaryLShelton

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 12:50 AM

The amount of manual work here (Obstacle #1 of KARAISKAKIS) is going to be enormous. Too much, in fact, to my way of thinking. How long could you keep it up? Then if I understood correctly, TheO, you want friendly games between two NSR players countable in the NSR ratings. You mention that this will cause a dichotomy between the NSR rating and site ELO, and so this will require that NSR ratings be calculated manually and differently than the site ELO ratings. Can you imagine the work...the nightmare...this whole plan will represent?

Napoleon said he likes the initiative but he is in a unique position. He started the clean ranking all by himself and knows better than anyone about the manual work aspect involved. It's possible but horrendous. And his ratings at least line up with the site ELO!

The approach tobermoryx points to seems a lot less work. Much less, perhaps. The biggest problem with that plan, I think, is that we can eliminate aliases all day long, but with the barn door wide open for more aliases to be created every minute--thanks to the Swiss cheese security on this site--there's never going to be an end to alias hunting, whether we ban those aliases or merely reset them to 100.

At the risk of stating the obvious, the best plan is to get the admins and/or owners involved in fixing things. Any ideas there? We're all just a bunch of intelligent people spinning our tires in the mud until then.
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#28 The Prof

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 05:45 AM

Great idea, and great suggestions!  But may I suggest KRACH as a superior rating system to ELO.  Players from Metaforge will remember that this was the official rating system used there.  I have recently written an Excel program that can compute these ratings.   They are found by multiplying a player's win ratio by a weighted average of his opponent's ratings, with the solution found by iteration.   The main advantage over ELO is that it continues to adjust a player's strength of opponents over time as more results come in, so one's rating will increase with the success of his previous opponents.  Also, it is not as sensitive to good and bad streaks as ELO is, so the rankings are generally more stable and reliable indicators of skill level with KRACH.  It is structured so that if a player has a rating twice as high as another then he is twice as likely to win the game.  In general, to calculate player A's probability of beating player B, it is simply  A / ( A + B ) where A and B are the players' KRACH ratings.  The drawbacks of KRACH are that the way it is computed is more complicated than the ELO formula, so it is harder for people to understand.  Also, a player will not know how much his rating will change based on the result of a game, because everyone's ratings are dependent upon all game results.


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#29 scottrussia

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 07:51 AM

1. Three times a year there is a definitive #1.  Three tournaments open to all comers...... you win and your the best. 

 

2. No matter what system you create - someone will try to game it.

 

3. No matter the flaws with ELO it seems to me that the guy at #1 simply wins.  So he has the highest rank.  You play and win and win and win and win and win and win and win and win and win.............then you can also claim to be #1.

 

4. Don't need this to become like boxing.... WBA, WBO, WBC, etc etc until virtually everyone that can stand upright in the ring is "champ".

 

5. The ranking you should really care about and strive for is the Spartan Warrior Ranking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Good Luck :)


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​Spartan Warriors

KING of the Battlefield!!!!!!


#30 Sohal

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 10:57 AM

Do you know there is a FREE site with all your dreams :

- no alias

- bronstein clock (means no draw refusal)

- no abusive langage

- anti chasing rules in the software

- unlimited set up recorded

- good system rank (and not that stupid ELO system)

- old euro design, or new one

etc, etc



#31 Gwynplaine

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 11:12 AM

 The ranking you should really care about and strive for is the Spartan Warrior Ranking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

​Spartan Warriors

KING of the Battlefield!!!!!!

 

Uh, you need to go see sevenseas for his offering, KING OF THE BATTLEFIELD, right away!  :lol:


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#32 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 11:22 AM

..., so one's rating will increase with the success of his previous opponents. ...

... does it also mean that in case you win a game against a much lower player then your ranking may decrease because overall you've on average played against lower ranked players?


If you don't know where you go ... you have a lot of chance to arrive elsewhere ...

#33 Lonello

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 01:36 PM

The ranking you should really care about and strive for is the Spartan Warrior Ranking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I am not really getting what new is either. We've got the King of the Day, Month, Year... then we have the Clean Ranking. Also we have tournaments all over the place and now an Hall of Fame too.

 

Most important thing of the Leaderboards imho is to get that ridiculous Platinum out of the way. Hielco can't reach anything anymore. Before, he couldn't either as it was TOO difficult set. Now it is TOO easy. Even I jump from my current Gold Marshal to Platinum Marshal in a day or two, according to Gwynplaine. 


Lo

#34 Gwynplaine

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 02:04 PM

Yes I am not really getting what new is either. We've got the King of the Day, Month, Year... then we have the Clean Ranking. Also we have tournaments all over the place and now an Hall of Fame too.

 

Most important thing of the Leaderboards imho is to get that ridiculous Platinum out of the way. Hielco can't reach anything anymore. Before, he couldn't either as it was TOO difficult set. Now it is TOO easy. Even I jump from my current Gold Marshal to Platinum Marshal in a day or two, according to Gwynplaine. 

 

You can use my PR 5000 if you like, Lonello! Just let me know where you want it sent for download.


Edited by Gwynplaine, 18 December 2016 - 02:04 PM.

"I try to think, but nothing happens!"

#35 don mitsos

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 04:32 PM

Both TheO's and Tobermoryx's proposals are worthy to be taken into consideration. Personally i prefer the later one with harsher rules like permanent ban for the confirmed aliases. If theO's proposal can be sustained (because of all that work that will come up) then i am behind it to. 

 

 

Do you know there is a FREE site with all your dreams :

- no alias

- bronstein clock (means no draw refusal)

- no abusive langage

- anti chasing rules in the software

- unlimited set up recorded

- good system rank (and not that stupid ELO system)

- old euro design, or new one

etc, etc

I guess you mean Gravon or Metaforge. If things are as you say, please explain to me why this sites don't have players anymore? I am really interested to know why people prefer this site with all its drawbacks over the others which must be a paradise as you describe it. If you mean another site please let me know. I would be interested to join.


Edited by don mitsos, 18 December 2016 - 04:33 PM.


#36 TheOptician

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 04:53 PM

Yes I am not really getting what new is either. We've got the King of the Day, Month, Year... then we have the Clean Ranking. Also we have tournaments all over the place and now an Hall of Fame too.

Most important thing of the Leaderboards imho is to get that ridiculous Platinum out of the way. Hielco can't reach anything anymore. Before, he couldn't either as it was TOO difficult set. Now it is TOO easy. Even I jump from my current Gold Marshal to Platinum Marshal in a day or two, according to Gwynplaine.


This site has got enough tournaments that's for sure. It is just the alias-affected leaderboards that are lacking. Personally speaking, only about 3% of the games I play are tournament games - the rest are ranked, and I'm sure I'm not alone there. So there is motivation for a credible leaderboard. It's not meant to replace tournaments - far from it.

If tournaments are the dessert, it would be nice to have a starter, a main course and some cutlery too.

Sohal does have a point - why don't we all just switch? What are the drawbacks of the free paradise?!

#37 GaryLShelton

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 05:16 PM

I don't think you can play on a phone at gravon at this time. Or has that changed?

i77rs4m.jpg

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#38 Gwynplaine

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 05:56 PM

Sohal does have a point - why don't we all just switch? What are the drawbacks of the free paradise?!

 

I suppose the first drawback is the most superficial, nevertheless, significant: Gravon does not have the elegant nor exciting animation and visual design that this site offers. Apart from that, if none of us cared about appearances, we all would have migrated long ago. So, why have we not? I believe that it sounds awful to say, "Well, er...I'm not into looks so much but the aesthetics are kind of pleasing here..."

 

So, you prompt an outstanding question, TheOptician...I think it would be an excellent poll for forum members why have more of us not migrated and simply left this place in the dust?


Edited by Gwynplaine, 18 December 2016 - 05:57 PM.

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#39 Sohal

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 05:58 PM

Both TheO's and Tobermoryx's proposals are worthy to be taken into consideration. Personally i prefer the later one with harsher rules like permanent ban for the confirmed aliases. If theO's proposal can be sustained (because of all that work that will come up) then i am behind it to. 

 

 

I guess you mean Gravon or Metaforge. If things are as you say, please explain to me why this sites don't have players anymore? I am really interested to know why people prefer this site with all its drawbacks over the others which must be a paradise as you describe it. If you mean another site please let me know. I would be interested to join.

 

metaforge is dead to me

gravon is the site, it's not that easy to start playing there but as soon as you are allowed to play ranked games, it's ok



#40 Sohal

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 05:59 PM

I don't think you can play on a phone at gravon at this time. Or has that changed?

 

play on a phone ?? useless to me






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