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#161 DarthRemark

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 02:20 AM

Are we living in a Matrix? What does it mean to be conscious? Take away your memories and what is left?

 

Most humans I have met never question who or what they are. They are given a set of rules to obey or there will be consequences. Who is keeping score?

 

Most people just flitter like a butterfly in the wind, bouncing from thought to thought. Never looking inward. 

 

I haven’t read this whole thread so not sure if I’m duplicating someone else’s efforts, but I’ll give you my thoughts on your original questions:
 
I think we’re in a matrix in the sense that the world we observe isn’t all that there is.  “Reality” is greater than what we consider “the natural”.   
 
Consciousness means to be “awake and aware”.  An animal can be conscious, and some animals are extremely intelligent, but none are on par with us in terms of abstract thinking abilities.  This gives us a higher level of awareness.  We have the ability to reflect on the larger questions of our existence and the meaning of it all, for example.  As far as we know this is unique in nature. 
 
Without memories, you still have “spirit”.  This is a person’s essence.  Who they really are.  Their brain may fail them but the spirit is unaffected. 
 
You’re probably right that a lot of us spend most of life just running the rat race.  Whether they talk about it or not though I think most folks do consider the larger issues at some point.  How much time they spend on this varies.   
 
The scorekeeper is God. 


#162 queenbee1

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 05:33 AM

 

I haven’t read this whole thread so not sure if I’m duplicating someone else’s efforts, but I’ll give you my thoughts on your original questions:
 
I think we’re in a matrix in the sense that the world we observe isn’t all that there is.  “Reality” is greater than what we consider “the natural”.   
 
Consciousness means to be “awake and aware”.  An animal can be conscious, and some animals are extremely intelligent, but none are on par with us in terms of abstract thinking abilities.  This gives us a higher level of awareness.  We have the ability to reflect on the larger questions of our existence and the meaning of it all, for example.  As far as we know this is unique in nature. 
 
Without memories, you still have “spirit”.  This is a person’s essence.  Who they really are.  Their brain may fail them but the spirit is unaffected. 
 
You’re probably right that a lot of us spend most of life just running the rat race.  Whether they talk about it or not though I think most folks do consider the larger issues at some point.  How much time they spend on this varies.   
 
The scorekeeper is God. 

 

Welcome to the topic Darth. Thanks for wading in. There is no judgement here no right or wrong. Consciousness as defined in dictionary is awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.

 

So we are all in agreement.

 

“Reality” is greater than what we consider “the natural”. I don't think I understand, but it's okay as I don't understand a lot of things.

 

As far as science knows on this planet, in the observable universe, we are unique. So again in agreement.

 

Without memories we still have spirit. Now I would never disclaim this as it not provable one way or the other, but I like to think there is an essence that is beyond our lifetimes and our collective experiences. Some sort of eternal soul, but eternity is a long time. 

 

So I challenge this only for the sake of discussion, we cannot find the spirit before we start breathing or after we stop. So how do we know it even exists? Things that cannot be explained happen every day. Must we attribute all supernatural phenomenon to God being? We can prove things that are unseen exist like atoms, ultrasounds and unseen light spectrums like infrared and ultraviolet, but we have yet to find a way to identify the soul or spirit in any way, shape or form. This seems to mean its existence is based solely on faith.

 

If I lack faith do I lack a spirit or is it their regardless? Some believers think that if you don't accept a God you will be condemned forever. This always seemed to me rather narrow minded and simplistic.

 

What people call their "life" or attempts to define themselves, seems to be relative measurement of winning or losing. I made good decisions, worked hard and now deserve the fruits of my labor, but in an instant that can all be ripped away. Trump talks a lot about this concept of and I think we all want to be winners, but you cannot have a winner without a loser am I right? At the end of the game someone has more points. Someone worked harder or the ball just bounced in their favor.

 

Let's say for sake of argument that God is keeping score. Keeping score of what? For what purpose? so we go to the gates of St Peter and some angel says sorry guy. You didn't make the cut. When you were 50-60 you didn't pray enough, perform enough selfless deeds etc. So you lose.

 

Some say that man is inherently imperfect. Does that mean we have to succeed or just try to do better? Are humans are in control of their destiny? Or is destiny in control of them?

 

I don't think there is anything in most religions that accounts for choosing your place, time of birth, who will be your parents or the government in which you find yourself under. Is God judging us as good for accepting authoritarian systems (being a good communist) or rebelling against the evils of such an economic system? How is one supposed to know how to behave?

 

If I am stricken with a disease am I supposed to fight with every fiber of my body and avail myself of every possible medical marvel available or should I meditate, pray and possibly accept my fate? Should we allow ourselves to choose death over a painful disease?

 

Muslims are supposed to pray toward Mecca, but how do they know? Do they carry a compass and a map to make sure they are facing the right direction towards Mecca? I know this sounds silly, but do we take our holy text literal or figuratively. ISIS seems to be nothing more than a bunch of thugs to me, but so are Racists, White Supremacists and Nationalists. Is the American Way really the right way or just a way? Being American at different times in history was about slave ownership, killing natives not to mention the Wild Wild West. Egyptians are now mostly Muslims and once worshiped the Sun. Just because we had flintlocks and rifles were we justified in killing Native Americans and breaking nearly every deal we made with them? What about Slaves? Wives that disobeyed their husbands? Husbands that beat their wives and children in order to get them to obey. Spoil the rod is what I was told growing up. In My High School days they had corporal punishment when an adult teacher could hit a child with a stick or paddle for disobedience or non compliance. Now they'd lose their job and go to jail.

 

So you can see why I get confused and have so many questions. If you lose all your memories before you die how can you find anything after death? You can't even remember that there is such a thing as a God. Does our spirit keep a record of all our memories and we are magically reunited with them upon our transition from life to death?

 

I don't expect anyone to have the answers. There is so much I don't know. Maybe there are beings that have a greater understanding of the universe and we aren't the first humans in the universe. I have a lot of questions and very few answers.



#163 DarthRemark

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 06:43 PM

Holy Smokes that’s a lot of questions!  Many of them merit their own discussions.  I’ll just focus on consciousness.  I’ll give you my thoughts on some of the others, but if you want to continue those tracks they probably should get their own thread.
 
The Natural is everything in the material universe down to atoms, electrons and the smallest particles and all of space/time.  This is all we can see and all science can test.  Reality could be much more than the natural universe though.  We can reason that it has to be.  For example, we can ask where did the Natural come from?  The universe is in motion.  Matter and energy change states.  But how did it come to be in the first place?  Something was there at the start and something put it in motion.  If everything has a cause (which is a safe assumption…we know of absolutely nothing that didn’t have a cause.), then we must be able to trace back to the beginning.  There are theories that say the universe doesn’t have to have a beginning.  It’s expanding and contracting and eventually time breaks down and stops, then goes in another direction, or even morphs into something completely different.  It’s all wild speculation because nobody can demonstrate any of that in a lab, but even if this is so we’re still left with the question of how did the “stuff” of physical reality come to be.  Was this faceless, voiceless glob always there?  An unintelligent mass of stuff that continually gyrates through strange permutations?  What a cosmic joke if this strange random glob eventually produced a component (us) that was capable of pondering itself.  Is it possible that that is “ultimate” reality?  Or is it more likely that there actually is a rhyme and reason to what’s going on?
 
You mentioned Eternity being a long time, but Eternity is a term for describing existence outside of space/time.  It’s not a long time.  Infinite time is a long time.  Eternity just is.  That’s hard to imagine from inside of space/time.  Kindof like describing 4-dimensional space time to a being that exists inside a 2-dimensional comic strip.  But we can grasp the concept and accept that it’s true.
 
As to your side questions:  
 
If I lack faith do I lack a spirit or is it their regardless?  -I’d say it’s there regardless.
 
Some believers think that if you don't accept a God you will be condemned forever. This always seemed to me rather narrow minded and simplistic. -Agreed. I can’t say more without getting into the realm of religion, and that can alienate people really fast.  So I’ll stick to concepts.
 
Trump talks a lot about this concept of and I think we all want to be winners, but you cannot have a winner without a loser am I right? – no you are wrong.  It’s possible for all to win.  Now, some will have more of some things than others, but that doesn’t necessitate losers.
 
Let's say for sake of argument that God is keeping score. Keeping score of what? For what purpose? so we go to the gates of St Peter and some angel says sorry guy. You didn't make the cut. When you were 50-60 you didn't pray enough, perform enough selfless deeds etc. So you lose. – without diving too far into religion, I believe this stage of existence has the primary purpose of determining what choices we will make.
 
Some say that man is inherently imperfect. Does that mean we have to succeed or just try to do better?  - to quote Yoda:  “Do or do not.  There is no try.” :) 
 
Are humans are in control of their destiny? – Yes.
 
Or is destiny in control of them? – this is what you would believe if you think the universe is an unintelligent, unguided mass of goo.  Hopefully, I gave you enough reason to doubt that.  
 
Is God judging us as good for accepting authoritarian systems (being a good communist) or rebelling against the evils of such an economic system? How is one supposed to know how to behave? – I think God is judging us based on the decisions we make with the knowledge we have.
 
If I am stricken with a disease am I supposed to fight with every fiber of my body and avail myself of every possible medical marvel available or should I meditate, pray and possibly accept my fate? Should we allow ourselves to choose death over a painful disease? – this is a personal choice that ties in to the last question.  Generally speaking, I think you should do what you can to survive.  If medical treatment is available and there is good reason to believe it’s helpful, then it would be foolish to turn it down. 
 
Is the American Way really the right way or just a way?  -it’s just a way.  But it’s the best way I’ve seen. 
 
Being American at different times in history was about slave ownership, killing natives not to mention the Wild Wild West. Egyptians are now mostly Muslims and once worshiped the Sun. Just because we had flintlocks and rifles were we justified in killing Native Americans and breaking nearly every deal we made with them? What about Slaves? – there’s a lot of ugly past in America.  But the same America that did those things also freed the slaves and passed civil rights.  Rescued nations in WW2 and prevented WW3.  Been a light for freedom and human rights in the world.  Provided international relief that’s saved millions.  Impacted millions more by developing and sharing technological and medical marvels.  On the whole, America has been a huge positive for the world.     
 
Spoil the rod is what I was told growing up. In My High School days they had corporal punishment when an adult teacher could hit a child with a stick or paddle for disobedience or non compliance. Now they'd lose their job and go to jail. -yes,  I think we need to beat more kids.  I’m not talking about abuse, but a good whipping never scarred anyone I’ve heard about and it produces disciplined adults.
 
Does our spirit keep a record of all our memories and we are magically reunited with them upon our transition from life to death? – I’m engaging in speculation myself here, but my belief is that the spirit is a part of the total you.  It’s reflective of your memories to the extent that they influence it and it influences them.  In eternity I think you will have some knowledge, maybe total knowledge, of what your brain contained.

Edited by DarthRemark, 03 September 2017 - 06:45 PM.


#164 DarthRemark

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 11:14 PM

I just wanted to comment a little more.  I went back and read the first few pages of this thread.  After that it seemed to wander off topic so I stopped.  You had some interesting comments on freewill though.  First, free will is not something that can be proven or disproven.  But again, we can infer that it’s true.  You’re right, in a strictly material Newtonian universe we would be at the whim of our experiences with every detail of life nothing more than a reaction to what came before.  There are reasons to believe this isn’t true though.  For me, a strong one is what I explained in the last post about the absurdity of a strictly material existence.  But in consciousness we have something that might actually transcend the physical universe.  What is higher consciousness if it’s not the ability to make free rational decisions?  And these often go against what could be predicted based on known inputs.  Of course, we can’t know and compute all of the inputs that go into a decision, but we observe many examples of going against predictability, like self-sacrifice and unconditional love, that are difficult to account for in a material world.  But how are free decisions arrived at?  In Newtonian physics everything is a reaction.  Quantum physics allows for unpredictable behavior at the subatomic level, which would throw some randomness into the equation, but that doesn’t get us to free will because you are still a slave to the unpredictability.  If free will exists it has to have a component beyond 4-D space/time.  This is what I think of as the spirit.  It’s as much a part of you as an arm or leg.  We intuitively sense that it’s there.  But there is no science that can show it because it’s beyond the realm of 4D.  Going back to the cartoon analogy, you could say that the 3rd dimension of the 2D cartoon is the subsequent frames.  One frame can’t see the next, but read them one after another and they tell a story.  In a similar way, we can’t see a 5th dimension though it’s as real as time and space.
 
You got onto a sidebar about AI.  AI is not true intelligence and does not have free will.  AI is complex code that executes very fast.  It has some ability to learn and can give the illusion of intelligence, but it’s not sentient.  It’s just doing what it’s been told.  There is no known technology that can give it free will.  This is illustrated by the problem of random number generation.  There’s no way to tell a computer to choose a random number because a computer just does what it’s told and there’s no set of instructions that can get it there.  The best programmers can do is generate an appropriately unpredictable number.  They might do something like take the timestamp at the moment of the decision and run it through a formula, but it’s not truly random because if you knew all of the variables going in you would know what the computer would do.  It’s just a 4D machine that’s a slave to its inputs. 
 
Ok, my week of vacation is now over and it’s back to work.  Football season has also begun so I plan to spend my recreation time watching TV and not hanging around Stratego.com.  I’ll check on this thread and the Trump thread in case anything comes up though.  Who knows, maybe we’ll nuke NK after all.  ;)

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#165 queenbee1

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 12:04 AM

Some days are just nice. There are no words to do it justice. I live in paradise so don't tell me the world is ending. Maybe yours is, but mine is doing just fine. I feel like a Hobbit.



#166 DarthRemark

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 12:55 AM

Hmm... Queenbee liked one of my posts?  Now I'm waiting for the Rod Serling monologue.  :) 


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#167 queenbee1

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 02:41 AM

Darth that was a genuine like. I lean left pretty hard on social issues, but in the end its "most of us" having "a good life" and appreciating it. When someone puts effort into their side I recognize it, eventually. Trump has just made it harder on himself. I don't need to bash him any further. He is the POTUS and we must support whoever is in there or at least give them some rope. Not to keep beating old issues. We are here. Let's do the best we can in the here and now. Trump deserves all honors associated with the title of POTUS until he is not.

 

I will gladly do battle on the field in a tournament, but I get tired of politics too. Seems the less Congress does, the better off the rest of us are. They can't add new taxes. Not in today's world. Seems that during this brief interlude in time we will have a strongly divided Congress and Trump needs to stop spending his political capital for leaks and rumors. It is killing any chance we can move forward. Just being real. No amendment says I have to like the man. Just respect the office. I can do that.



#168 queenbee1

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 09:26 PM

Darth that was a genuine like. I lean left pretty hard on social issues, but in the end its "most of us" having "a good life" and appreciating it. When someone puts effort into their side I recognize it, eventually. Trump has just made it harder on himself. I don't need to bash him any further.

When I posted this I must have been in a very good mood or having a very good day. I will continue to hammer away at the Moron in Chief until someone can convince me otherwise. Sam Harris is a well know philosopher and Neuro Scientist. Yes he has degrees too. This is an interesting discussion with a PhD from Germany. Thomas K. Metzinger is full professor and director of the theoretical philosophy group and the research group on neuroethics/neurophilosophy at the department of philosophy, Johannes Gutenberg University of Mainz, Germany.

 

I didn't realize that Trump really has isolated us from the rest of the world. This is pre World War ll. They talk for just a few minutes about Trump as Sam's listeners are sick of Trump and we tune into him to listen to Sam talk of anything not Trump related, but the good professor from Germany has a few things to say about him before the fun part comes and they discuss consciousness.

 

Americans (at least most) would never sit still for 2 hours and listen to two brilliant men discuss the nature of consciousness. We already have our God in a Box. For those people I will quote Lonello. "Nothing to see here, move along."

 

I give you "The Nature of Consciousness"

 

P.S. I financially support Sam's Podcast monthly, but I cannot make any of his tour dates as he comes nowhere near Florida.



#169 queenbee1

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 10:09 PM

This was the most stunning ideas the good doctor had to say. He is very pessimistic that they can be overcome as about 80% of humanity has these delusions of immortality.
 
"Religions are adaptive delusional systems that help human beings in mortality denial." He is not just talking about Islam.
 
Science and philosophy have already taken that away from them. They are in fact fighting to maintain those delusions. 



#170 DarthRemark

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 05:55 PM

 
"Religions are adaptive delusional systems that help human beings in mortality denial." He is not just talking about Islam.
 
Science and philosophy have already taken that away from them. They are in fact fighting to maintain those delusions. 

This sounds like an atheist struggling to justify himself as much as an observation with any objective merit. 


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#171 queenbee1

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 04:50 AM

Thanks for the comment Darth. You cannot be right or wrong in this topic. We are all just observers here.



#172 queenbee1

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 06:19 AM

This was the most stunning ideas the good doctor had to say. He is very pessimistic that they can be overcome as about 80% of humanity has these delusions of immortality.
 
"Religions are adaptive delusional systems that help human beings in mortality denial." He is not just talking about Islam.
 
Science and philosophy have already taken that away from them. They are in fact fighting to maintain those delusions. 

Yes I am taking my own quote.

 

Let's take the word "delusional" out of the comments. That now reads 80% of humanity believe they are immortal. Wow.

 

That is a lot of people and I am quite stunned. We are not talking about religion right? Still 4 out of 5 of us believe that we live forever and forever is a long time. We don't know how we got here and we don't know where we are going, but we have bought a ticket on the train into immortality.

 

I wonder if immortals think What will be doing 100 million years from now? I can barely remember last week as I do not have an Eidetic memory. Will my eternal soul have the ability to remember 2017 a 100 million years from now? So this lifetime is pretty much irrelevant in the grander scheme of things. It really doesn't matter or does it?

 

The next statement made by the good doctor is Religions are (take out delusional) systems that help human beings in mortality denial.

 

That sound bad with or without the word delusion.

 

Some believe their lives are a test of free will. Million over recorded time have lived as slaves. Some rose up against their masters. Who was the bad guy? Let your gods sort them out seems to be the answer.

 

Souls make poor choices are condemned and it's all on them. They killed those in power to free themselves, but at the time General Washington was a traitor and a terrorist. You cannot blame the economic conditions, the madness of King George, bad parenting, abuse at the hands of others you just have to believe you were right and had good intentions.

 

An oppressive regime hangs you from the ratfters and beats you within an inch of your life, but ignore the pain. Ignore the oppression of the past, present and future. The burning of witches, the unjust wars, the wrongful convictions, the myriad of shitty lives lead under the yoke of slavery or religious doctrine because you are immortal. Nothing can kill you.

 

We are born here and are tested to see if we are worthy. Then if we choose wisely we live in immortal bliss and if they choose poorly we are condemned for eternity. Regardless we cannot be killed. Ask almost anyone. What about mental illness leading to injury or death. Who is to blame?

 

There must be some sort of score keeping. Darth said we can all be winners, but in every game there is a winner and a loser is there not? Isn't that why we keep score?

 

If my intent to kill is because the government said it was the bad guys I am rewarded, but doesn't the same go for the so called bad guys? What if I kill someone without "orders" or I aim at the bad guys and shoot a kid or his mother? I am still a murderer am I not? You will never find a shortage of people who want to impose the death penalty. Plenty of hangmen will gladly pull the lever.

 

This is where things get a little tricky. Intent matters or doesn't it. That's all for tonight. it was just some thoughts late at night.



#173 queenbee1

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 07:21 AM

one more thing before I hit the sack. Some of you know I have been sad and a little depressed as of late. Sadness is transitory as are all emotions. I have spent 30 plus years with a person whom I loved. That person is now gone. What is left is her body. No state should be able to pass a law taking away our rights to a life in pursuit of happiness. Why then do 90% take away our right to death with dignity? After all death is also transitory according to most all religions that I am aware of so why are you blocking us. I am talking about Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Buddhism.

 

Yet people cede their rights to the states the state imposes laws to prevent "doctor assisted" death. It's not suicide, it is just moving on to immortality. Remember that 80% believe in immortality, but only on their terms. The rest of us who are not believers are not given that same right. Even in states like Washington, Oregon, Vermont and now California if a person has dementia the family has no options. Just a slow creeping, insidious disease whereby is virtually no recourse for the family. This disease also crushes families financially wiping out their savings and in many cases killing the caretaker before taking their homes from them. You cannot even give your money away to charity as they have a look back clause of 5 years. When you are down to 2000.00 dollars, then your Wife or Husband, Father or Mother can qualify for medicaid and be placed in a nursing home which is worse then death. I don't want your sympathy and I am not even sure why I am sharing this. I guess I have had it.

 

Tonight our roommate was having a conversation with no one. This is not the first one. We have had 6 different roommates in 18 months and 4 have died. At any given time they can start to cry hysterically. Even gentle changing often results in great pain even if it is imagined. Some lay in bed all day with their mouth gaped open in a comatose state. Some just cry out "help me, please help me" just to get someone's attention and the staff are immune because they cannot do anything to help. My partner cannot remember where she is or why she is there. She has hallucinations all day. This happened to her father, my father and now her. It almost killed me trying to be her caretaker and cut my professional life short.

 

So when I talk about government or Trump it all seems so pointless as no one, not even the well intentioned care enough to change these draconian laws. They tell me about how they too have known someone, but I dare say not one of you have spent as much time as I have in nursing homes. This isn't a contest. As I said I don't want your sympathy. I deplore it. What I do want is for you to stand up and be counted to let these people go.

 

Don't you think that healthcare professionals can determine if this person is beyond saving as opposed to gold digging families who just want grandma dead? I am not asking for the state to create death panels. I just want to have the right to choose and not have the state decide what is best. It would damn near kill me to push the needle in her arm, but give us a choice.


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#174 Don_Homer

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 10:20 PM

This is a very sad story Queenbee. I can only advice you to speak about it with people in your area who you trust, who are involved in care and/or people from outside who are willing to help in any way.

Molto Bene, Thats a nica Donut !


#175 queenbee1

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 03:04 AM

I have contacted all my state reps and senators. Talking to friends results in sympathy or their eyes glaze over and they can't wait to change the subject. Thank you Don for you kind words, but my nightmare is playing itself out in millions of homes around the US. If we are immortal then everything is a moot point. The right to die is embraced rather than shunned and if there is a soul in and unborn child it will just have to get in line to be born again. This is what blows my mind about pro-lifers. Souls cannot be killed so why the accusations of murder? Why do people claim that guns are innocent. It is the person the wields them that are to blame.

 

Another thing in our history was the Civil War that I believe could happen again based on today's political climate. That is why I don't want to talk about it anymore. Who were the good guys back then when brother fought brother? The South? The North? Abe Lincoln? A good day for General Grant was not falling off his horse drunk. Was it the congress that opposed Lincoln?

 

Life is not black and white. It is filled with nuances and the line is always moving. The problems I find are the narrow definitions as dictated by religious doctrine. If they didn't try to influence government to (through force) behave according to their religious beliefs I would not be anti religion, but the same goes for Islam. They blow themselves up to get to heaven and take as many infidels and innocent bystanders with them as they can. They are brainwashed just as Christians are.

 

I don't hate religion and I think of myself as a very spiritual person. What bothers me is the hypocrisy. Good honest God fearing Christians who would make a day of going to town with the kids laying out a picnic blanket and watching them hang a man. How many innocent men and women have we executed I wonder? How many believe in the purity of the white race and put on a hood and marching through the streets? A lot less now than in history and that is evolution of a culture. When someone stands up against the mob and say enough! We can't just hang a man for being black. Muslims who toss gays from rooftops and other heinous crimes against humanity. The Egyptians who 97% practice female genital mutilation and force their women to wear burkas or the hijab.

 

Christians who say they don't condemn the sinner, just the sin yet impose laws of incarceration for a kid getting high. Who cares the kid is immortal right? Just do whatever you want. Believe whatever you want, but don't impose your Christian or Sharia values on me. I don't need a bible to know it's wrong to kill and steal, but the selfish behavior some exhibit saddens me. Correct me if I am wrong but in Matthew 25 it says "For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me." How does that jibe with the wall people now want? How many of you offered even a dollar to the relief efforts in Houston or Florida or Puerto Rico? Now we see them as The Other and we shun them or condemn them for being different.

 

Then just when we need all attention focused on PR this nut shoots down 50+ people and gets all the news all the time. PR, Florida and Houston are forgotten. We're on to the next crisis. Don't cry for me Argentina. I will be fine or I won't. One day no one will even remember my name and that's okay. I don't need accolades or sympathy what I would like is for us to be a little more conscious of our selves. When a catastrophe happens pry open your wallet and give to people you will never meet because it is the right thing to do. Have one less Coke out of the vending machine or one less 6 pack of beer.

 

Note to DarthRemark do not read the rest of my comment. I know you love football and despite the injuries and brain damage players say they would do it all again. That is how intoxicating the game is for the players and the fans. I used to like America Football. Now it makes me sad.

 

I read that 80% of the NFL is black. They average 3 years of playing as a gladiator and 80% are broke by age 30. Then when a man uses his position to make a political statement we boo and say STFU and play the game or you're fired. We don't care about you. The NFL is sacred. Then all the players and even the owners started to stand united. I personally don't think sports is the place to make a political statement, but I will defend yu right to do so.

 

I remember a cartoon when I was a kid called "The Jetsons" and it was in the future. They had football too played by robots. They would smash into each other until nothing was left on the field but the nuts and bolts that held them together. "Don't worry he just had the wind knocked out of him. He'll be good as new." Then a cleanup robot had come out onto the field, swept up the broken pieces into a dust pan and the game went on. That is the same with the NFL. Nothing compares with it. It feeds our need for violence. At one time it was The Friday Night Fights and it was on radio. It too was hallowed as well.

 

Today the NFL is the highest rated shows on TV. So were the gladiators in Roman times. Give the masses Bread and Circuses and whatever you do don't protest. Unfortunately that is what the players did. To some fans it was just about the worst thing a player can do. Soon it will be forgotten. The NFL is entertainment and not politics as it should be.

 

Here is the video of Jetson's Night Out and start around the 12:20 and ends at the 17:00 mark. Today the NFL players are just as expendable, but the great players live on in immortality. The rest are simply based on 80% of the people on earth immortal anyway.



#176 TheOptician

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 08:37 AM

When you say sport is not the place to make a political statement - do you mean that anyone with a (political) opinion that works in sport has to give up their right to speak? What about if you work in the fishing business - is that an acceptable industry from which to express a viewpoint? How about economics or business?

Sport levels the playing field. It is not necessary to be born with wealth, power and privilege to get a platform. If we only ever heard politics from politicians we would have no idea of the opinions of the people.

#177 Lonello

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 09:10 AM

make a political statement

You love politics, don't you, Theo :rolleyes:?

 

advice you to speak about it

 

She means the politics surrounding it, Don. Earlier in this thread I already told it from our perspective. You know. Voltooid leven, as they call it in our Kabinetsformatie these days. The coalition almost blew up over exactly this theme, remember? The compromize what it seems like now is that they won't ease on the end of life but will on the start. Meaning not what Queenbee is advocating here, but they will allow stamcelles to be used in medicine.

 

It's quite remarkable, this start of life. So many years have passed since we had sheep Dolly which was a perfect copy of her mother. Or herself. Now earlier this year I watched how this turned out the legal way. Apparantly it's pretty free: a TV-show offered a dog owner to copy her dog that had cancer and was about to die. So the show simply ordered dog II. From Japan I believe. It was costly, but it could be done easily. No problems there. It was an amazing documentary.

 

But on the human level there still was resistence from the religious parties. They have bend now. There won't be more euthanasia, but there will be more 'Dolly'.


Lo

#178 Don_Homer

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 11:41 AM

She means .... I already told it ..... remember?


This way of speak is very annoying and derogatory.

Molto Bene, Thats a nica Donut !


#179 Lonello

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 12:06 PM

You don't need to spoil topics with these kinds of comments all the time, Don. I find things people write annoying sometimes too but you don't need to point that out, especially if you're a 'guest' in someones topic. It's a matter of TAKING offense. Just don't take it then, is how I handle that. And when I refer to something I wrote earlier, I mean nothing derogatory by it... it's just food for more if you want to look it up. If you don't, then I made a summary for you. What can be better than this? Best of both worlds.


Lo

#180 GaryLShelton

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 01:52 PM

This is what blows my mind about pro-lifers. Souls cannot be killed so why the accusations of murder?


queenbee1, it is quite an amazing thing to categorically state that "Souls cannot be killed..." From where did such a statement come? From what authority? Do you have a citation for the claim?

In the Christian Bible it fairly clearly says that the soul can be killed/destroyed in Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 KJV



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