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Consciousness


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#201 queenbee1

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Posted 13 October 2017 - 01:45 AM

Well Don thanks for liking my thoughts. My life is a bit of an open book in this topic. Today was a good day. I have avoided all politics since my last comment in the Trump analysis topic. I do read what others have to say, I just don't want to be involved in what I would term the ultimate reality show.

 

My life has only so many more years, days, hours and minutes that right now I don't want to waste them. It is like a long running real life soap opera and it irritates me more than anything else.

 

I needed a break from Trump. Too many more important things for me to pay attention to. I don't know if that lady made it through the night. My GF was not very conscious so I didn't go visit tonight at her request. Tonight my friend is a cat. As I type he is rubbing my arm for more attention. Now he is asleep on his chair.

 

Lucky guy. Not a care in the world.


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#202 queenbee1

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 02:40 AM

Took some time this week to just relax. The heat of Summer may have changed to Fall. A high of 80F and that is 10 degrees cooler than last week. Tomorrow Marco and I have big plans to lay in the backyard together. We've only done that once in the past 2 weeks. I hope it is breezy tomorrow too.


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#203 queenbee1

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:34 PM

The Lessons of Death is a podcast with Sam Harris and Frank Ostaseski. This is very short only about an hour. Maybe it will make you think and maybe not.
 
A Conversation with Frank Ostaseski

https://www.samharri...essons-of-death



#204 queenbee1

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 06:49 PM

Another roommate died the day after Thanksgiving. The Holiday seasons bring with it much sorrow for those who have no one or can't be with there family. A lot of suicides. There is also SAD (Lo look it up) and many people get depressed in Winter. I however live where the temps rarely drop below 70.

 

That is the 5th old person I have seen slowly lose their mind and die. In a nursing home they always have a Hospice sit with the patient. No one seems to know less about death than a Hospice nurse even though they've seen it a lot more than I have. To them it's just a job and it's not like they can comfort a dementia patient as they are comatose and stop eating. To me they seem trapped in a prison that is their body. 

 

I would rather go out with a bang than die a slow miserable death losing everything that make a person special, their memories. I'll never know who she was and she didn't appear to ever have family so she is just another Eleanor Rigby. Some people believe that at death they will be made whole again. That is just a fantasy.

 

Ah, look at all the lonely people!
Ah, look at all the lonely people!
 
Eleanor Rigby picks up the rice
In the church where a wedding has been
Lives in a dream
Waits at the window
Wearing the face that she keeps in a jar by the door
Who is it for?
 
All the lonely people
Where do they all come from?
All the lonely people
Where do they all belong?
 
Father McKenzie
Writing the words of a sermon that no one will hear
No one comes near
Look at him working
Darning his socks in the night when there's nobody there
What does he care?
 
All the lonely people
Where do they all come from?
All the lonely people
Where do they all belong?
 
Ah, look at all the lonely people!
Ah, look at all the lonely people!
 
Eleanor Rigby died in the church
And was buried along with her name
Nobody came
Father McKenzie wiping the dirt
From his hands as he walks from the grave
No one was saved
 
All the lonely people (Ah, look at all the lonely people!)
Where do they all come from?
All the lonely people (Ah, look at all the lonely people!)
Where do they all belong?
 
In the end no matter what you may have accomplished or how many taxes you paid the Grim Reaper doesn't care. We're just candles in the wind. On a cosmic calendar based on scientific research and no biblical nonsense we come into this life not knowing where we came from and go out not knowing where we will be. That is if we will be at all.
 
Death is still a mystery to everyone.


#205 DarthRemark

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 02:54 PM

It's very sad reading about people like this, QB.  I don't really have words to express.

 

I do believe there is meaning though.  As previously discussed.


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#206 queenbee1

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 11:40 PM

It's very sad reading about people like this, QB.  I don't really have words to express.

 

I do believe there is meaning though.  As previously discussed.

Darth you are right it is sad. It's actually harder on the family or caretaker than the person who is sick. My only problem is that Religion dominate American politics. I can't count how many times I have heard that only their god has the right to decide no matter what all while families slowly go broke.

 

These same people seem to believe that capital punishment is okay even though our justice system incarcerates or kills innocent people.

 

There is no proof that there is life after death, but there is no right to dying with dignity and our minds intact. Seems believers think that death is a grand reset. This is your only life. Even if our consciousness can exist outside of our body you won't be the same person. If consciousness can exist without a body it makes me wonder why we cannot do so while we are alive. Suicide bombers believe that the get a free ticket to paradise. To some Christians suicide is an unforgivable sin.

 

I think human consciousness evolves. We are not the same person we were when we were young. I am not the same as I was a year ago. Maybe we are just waves that rise up from a vast ocean of consciousness only to return from which it came. Science has no idea. We pass down folklore from generation to generation.

 

Would people more readily rise up against oppression were it not for their belief in an afterlife? I have said many times before that I don't care what a person believes until they use politics to enforce their beliefs on others. 



#207 DarthRemark

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:20 AM

Everyone is guided by belief in something, religious or not.  There are a lot of religious people in America so that's reflected in our politics.  Right to die issues are very difficult.  There is a right answer though.  What do you believe that is and why?  Unless Queenbee is the center of the universe and the arbiter of all truth then she is looking to something outside of herself for that answer.  :)



#208 queenbee1

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 10:06 PM

Everyone is guided by belief in something, religious or not.  There are a lot of religious people in America so that's reflected in our politics.  Right to die issues are very difficult.  There is a right answer though.  What do you believe that is and why?  Unless Queenbee is the center of the universe and the arbiter of all truth then she is looking to something outside of herself for that answer.  :)

 

 

There is a right answer? What is it? What I expect from our politicians is to protect the minority. Around 5 million people are incapable of deciding for themselves. The decision to sustain life is a deeply personal one that families of all beliefs should be free to make. Not one that is imposed by the state.



#209 DarthRemark

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 02:38 AM

I think we need to back up to identify the moral authority by which we execute actions.  What is ultimately right can’t simply be what we personally decide it is.  It’s self-evident that life is valuable, and I don’t think you’re arguing that it’s not, so who then has the authority to deprive another person of it?  Saying someone is incapable of deciding if they still want to live, therefore someone else should make that decision for them, is not a defendable moral position.  Why would someone gain a life or death judgment over another person just because that person can’t render their own decision? 

 
One of the fundamental roles of the state is to protect its citizens.  It imposes its will all the time while doing that. 

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#210 queenbee1

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:10 AM

I am removing this link so a podcast because as it is an intellectual debate between two strongly opinionated people. It is impossible for me to summarize it into something that is palatable for mass consumption. There are so few people that even know that the forum exists much less would care anything about this topic. Plus the reader might assume that I agree with one or the other. It's just something I posted and now realize this is not the place or time for sharing something of this nature on this forum. Some of the concepts I couldn't even grasp.



#211 DarthRemark

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:27 AM

Sorry QB.  I don't have time to watch a 2hr podcast.  :)  You'll have to summarize the important points.



#212 queenbee1

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:38 AM

 

who then has the authority to deprive another person of it? 

 

Who has the right to force someone to live when all medical options have been exhausted? Will you pay more taxes to make sure that I have access to the most expensive medical care science can offer? Do we want the state to force us into bankruptcy so that we can breathe once more? Are we obligated to empty our bank accounts of every dime as an offering to the wonders of medicine despite the fact that there is no quality of life?



#213 queenbee1

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 03:03 AM

Sorry QB.  I don't have time to watch a 2hr podcast.  :)  You'll have to summarize the important points.

Darth although I can appreciate your lack of time I cannot summarize a two hour conversation in a paragraph. 

I am drawn to listen to smart people discuss things like consciousness, but this particular one is too complex now that I have had time to digest it. 

 

Learning and challenging my own preconceptions is a lifelong endeavor. What I have noticed is that Religion tends to be a disincentive to intellectual curiosity. It is folklore handed down from generation to generation. Each generation adds and subtracts from it. Some take a rigid view of life and cannot accept today's more liberal social norms of the culture. These people are the ones who refuse to obey the laws of man over their interpretation of their Religion. They are stuck and have no capacity to change. I cannot imagine why a baker would draw a line in the sand and say okay you can get married, but I won't bake you a cake. It seems ludicrous and quite silly.

 

Then there are those who think that we cannot be trusted around children to teach school. That termination of a pregnancy is murder, but capital punishment is justice being served. Even though we know the criminal justice system is not fair and often convicts innocent people. Other's lives are ruined having to pleas bargain out of fear that if they fight the system they will end up in jail for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. How can we justify imprisoning more people per capita that any country in the world?

 

Some people appear to become less and less curious once they accept the tenets of the folklore. They have accept the story as absolute. Monotheistic religions are all pretty much the same. God created the universe out of thin air, but you don't need science to understand it, you need faith. Science admits it cannot determine how the universe started, but they can look up into the sky and determine exactly where Earth is in relation to the rest of the universe. Don't worry about the fact that many lawmakers are liars and thiefs. Forget about Climate Change as God will take care of that and deny that evolution. Even though 99% of the scientific community can show verifiable proof. Just turn your life over to the care of God and when you die, you will live in paradise for eternity. Fail to do so and you are condemned to a horrific place for all eternity. Then there is Pascal's Wager that is an argument in philosophy presented by the seventeenth-century French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal (1623–62). It posits that humans bet with their lives that God either exists or does not. . Better be safe than sorry.

 

If I was a part of a tribe I would be afraid of not fitting in socially and fear that non conformity would make me an outcast. I've been an outcast so I know what it feels like.

 

In Islam the penalty for Apostasy is death. Very few Muslims ever leave the faith. Not out of fear of God, but of there family and neighbors. The penalties are severe. At one time non Christians were also murdered. My neighbor could accuse me of being a witch and I could have been burned alive. Early settler of America fled Europe due to all means of torture and socially ostracized for not accepting god as those in power defined it.

 

For me I was never meant to be a part of a religious tribe. There are many occasions in which I feel like I am a salmon swimming upstream.

 

The very concept of an eternal paradise doesn't connect with me. I believe in science. I am just a square peg in a society of round ones. I do feel lucky that I had a fairly good life and that I didn't follow the herd, but it was by no means an easy one. Being gay in the 1970s up until recently we were perceived as mentally ill. My parents even took me to a psychiatrist to try and fix me in my teens. 

 

Now my only goal is to become more conscious of who I am. To find a way out of the Matrix. I am not sure what I am looking for. I don't even have a key.



#214 DarthRemark

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 03:46 AM

Who has the right to force someone to live when all medical options have been exhausted? Will you pay more taxes to make sure that I have access to the most expensive medical care science can offer? Do we want the state to force us into bankruptcy so that we can breathe once more? Are we obligated to empty our bank accounts of every dime as an offering to the wonders of medicine despite the fact that there is no quality of life?

 

“Forcing” assumes the person really wants to do something else.  If they’re incapacitated you can’t know what they want.  You have to assume they want to live.  And even assuming they want to die, it would be immoral for you to actually kill them.  I’m not talking about extraordinary measures.  There are reasonable steps you can take to keep someone alive.  Feeding would definitely qualify, even if it has to be done intravenously.  Medical procedures would qualify if they have a reasonable expectation of success and are reasonable and practical to attempt.  But death is a part of life and unavoidable, so I don’t think we’re required to do absolutely everything possible to try to keep someone going.  I truthfully haven’t put a lot of thought into this topic or even read much about it myself.  It’s thankfully never become an issue in my life.  I think I’ve put enough thought into it to be comfortable with what I’ve said so far though.   
 
But you didn’t answer my question.  I understand that you’re in a horrible position and in many ways it would be better for everyone involved if it was over.  But there is a right and wrong here.  I was trying to get you to consider that with my question. 

Edited by DarthRemark, 08 December 2017 - 03:47 AM.


#215 DarthRemark

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 03:58 AM

Darth although I can appreciate your lack of time I cannot summarize a two hour conversation in a paragraph. 

I am drawn to listen to smart people discuss things like consciousness, but this particular one is too complex now that I have had time to digest it. 

Ok, I can appreciate that.  But I'm on this board to exchange ideas with you.  When I just get a link it feels like a homework assignment.   :)

 

The rest of your post is mostly a rant against religion.  I can appreciate that too.  I'll just say that it's misguided.  Yes, history has a lot of hypocritical behavior and outright insanity from the religious crowd.  But religion is just a method of bringing meaning to the reality we live in.  Some religion is demonstrably wrong.  But that doesn't mean there isn't a higher meaning to life, no God, etc.  Science and faith are not mutually exclusive.  


Edited by DarthRemark, 08 December 2017 - 03:59 AM.


#216 queenbee1

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 07:31 PM

Darth I don't know what the question was. That was not a rant against Religion. You want to see rants against religion seek out the first Religion topic.

 

If I veered off topic by mentioning politics that is my fault. I thought I was talking about the right to choose death. That this is a private family matter and not one for the state to intervene in.

 

I finally edited this comment to a quick read and it's is a lovely day, the sun is shining and a warm breeze blows through my home. It is a good day to be alive despite all my issues I can find a silver lining.



#217 DarthRemark

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 03:00 PM

Darth I don't know what the question was. 

??  I asked it a couple different ways, but you quoted one of them in your reply!?!   :) 

 

Here it is again:  By what moral authority can one person deprive another of life?
 
Life is fragile.  It’s very easy to kill yourself if that’s your intent.  You don’t need the approval or assistance of the state.  I thought we were talking about euthanasia in the context of an someone who no longer possessed their faculties though.  I think I assumed that because of your nursing home stories about people who just lay there and stare.  Assisted suicide is a related subject but I’ve considered that even less.  I think the solution can still be found in my question.


#218 queenbee1

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 08:24 AM

There is no moral authority other than we love them and don't want them to suffer or we choose death so as not to suffer a painful death.

 

I've seen what it does to families and how it affected my life. I've seen people spend their life savings handing it over to nursing homes. If a house is jointly owned the state can and will place a lien on the home to cover costs of care beyond what a spouse can pay.

 

Medicaid was not meant to keep the elderly alive in a nursing home despite the lack of quality as long as they can still breathe. You must also become impoverished. The surviving spouse can only keep 2000.00. If they sell the home the state can and will place a lien on the home and take half the proceeds to cover the cost of the nursing care. This is not exclusive to Alzheimer's. The disease and prognosis don't matter. There are some really horrific and painful ways of dying and suicide is not easy. Can you imagine putting a gun to your head? The impact on the surviving family members or the one who finds you in a pool of blood in a bathtub with your wrists cut? I can't do it, but when its my time I could take a pill under doctor assistance. When Alzheimer's reaches the end it is very sad for both the patient and family.

 

To someone who isn't yet having to deal with this problem I have said it is a very personal and difficult decision. Why would someone who is not involved think the state is the best to decide? Just because the majority of Americans vote their religious values it's not right for them to interfere in these matters. You should not enforce your God and religious values on me. Who can better make the decision in quality of life situation. The family or the state. I remember a long time ago when Jeb Bush tried to enforce the state's will or the husband for Terry Shiavo here in Florida and the overwhelming public opinion was for him to STFU. She was in a coma and brain dead for nearly 14 years.

 

You cannot know what is feels like and no offense but it's really no one else's business. I'll decide for me with a group of medical professional when my time comes. Then when your time comes, you can decide. There is no one size fits all.

 

I think we have run into a dead end. 



#219 queenbee1

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 08:53 AM

We can only discuss what consciousness might be. Science cannot identify it prior to, during or after life. All I can do is muse about what it might be from my life's experiences. Sometimes I think my life is a movie. It has a start a middle and an end. I don't know what it is where it came from or where it goes. Maybe there are multiple universes and multiple Queenbees. In each one my life is slightly difference or I could be a movie that repeats over and over again until I can find enlightenment and get off the wheel of life. The question that raises is what happens after I finally understand it?



#220 GaryLShelton

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 09:23 AM

Consciousness is the spark of God in each of us where in our own myriad ways, and to the level that God has unveiled a man to see, we are able to recognize and operate in His handywork from the firmament down.

Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. (KJV)

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