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#181 Lonello

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 02:58 PM

such a statement come? From what authority? Do you have a citation for the claim?

 

There are no rights and no wrongs in this topic as I understand it, Gary. Everything is in the eye of the beholder at that moment in time, so no claims of authority there; I take it you can't expect statements for proof as it's rather everybody's state of mind.


Lo

#182 queenbee1

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 09:38 PM

Let me ask a question. What is the point of Christianity? I am not down on them. I like Christians even if I don't understand them. You believe that you will go to heaven don't you? If you are a sinner and do not repent you will be eternally damned yes? 

 

When a person the essence of who they are what made them special (their memories) why do you take away my rights to a peaceful end. God and Religion have no part in this. That is why we have separation of church and state. Maybe I don't understand the US constitution at all.

 

So why do you want to interfere and pass laws restricting my freedom. What does my choosing death have to do with you?

 

Also in regards to the players protesting on the field. They have every right to do so. I don't know why anyone would want to crash into each other. Maybe they just like to hurt people. I was at a family gathering and they had football on. I saw one guys knee pad covered in someone else's blood. I saw one player being held up while another player went helmet to helmet with him and knocked him unconscious. It all happens so fast and I don't blame anyone. I was just so freaked out I walked out of the room, but it's their right to play the game. 

 

The point is I don't want them to do it, but I defend their right to do beat each other's brains into pulp.

 

As I have heard, even though they know they will suffer a lifetime of pain from injuries and possible brain damage none of the players would stop playing. It is an awful sport IMO, but it is their right to play it and our right to watch it or in my case not to watch.

 

Getting back to Alzheimer's if you want to watch your wife or husband get worse and worse until there is nothing left except their body by all means do so. If you want to lose you life savings paying for healthcare then it's your money, but what happens to you when all the money is gone and she is too?

 

My only saving grace was that my money is mine because we were not married. If not, I would be broke and not have enough money to pay my medical bills. It could still happen.

 

I want the right to choose. I don't want to live if I don't know who I am. Nursing home in collusion with Medicaid take it all unless you know 5 years in advance who will be the one needing nursing home care. Don't start with Long Term Care insurance as all they did was take my money.

 

So for those who believe in immortal souls don't be a hypocrite. I don't want you to change your beliefs, but Alzheimer's is a virus sweeping our country and no one is talking about it.



#183 queenbee1

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 03:41 AM

 

Without memories, you still have “spirit”.  This is a person’s essence.  Who they really are.  Their brain may fail them but the spirit is unaffected. 
 
You’re probably right that a lot of us spend most of life just running the rat race.  Whether they talk about it or not though I think most folks do consider the larger issues at some point.  How much time they spend on this varies.   
 
The scorekeeper is God. 

 

I've been meaning to reply to this. Can you tell me how to identify the spirit? How you even know one exists? Harrison Ford did a movie a long time back called "Regarding Henry" about an attorney who was a real jerk, but he was shot and it damaged his brain. I should watch that again. JJ Abrams from Star Trek fame wrote the story.

 

The concept of God keeping score means that this is a game. The fact that God punishes some people means there are losers. Most people don't talk about consciousness as their hierarchy of needs haven't been met and they never reach self actualization. Haven't I mentioned that before? Maslow's hierarchy of needs.



#184 DarthRemark

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 03:44 AM

Queenbee, I am really sorry for what you are going through.  I’ve watched sick loved ones wither and die, but it never took more than a few weeks, so I really can’t imagine what you are going through.   You’re in my thoughts. 

 
You’ve said a lot here that I’d like to comment on, especially as some of it seems to be a reaction to things I’ve said.  Many of these things require thoughtful responses though and I’m really too tired to think right now.  I’ll try to post something this weekend.
 
Btw: I mistakenly thought this thread was about human consciousness, but I finally realized it’s Queenbee stream of consciousness.  :)

Edited by DarthRemark, 06 October 2017 - 03:45 AM.

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#185 Don_Homer

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 12:58 PM

You don't need to spoil topics with these kinds of comments all the time, Don. I find things people write annoying sometimes too but you don't need to point that out, especially if you're a 'guest' in someones topic. It's a matter of TAKING offense. Just don't take it then, is how I handle that. And when I refer to something I wrote earlier, I mean nothing derogatory by it... it's just food for more if you want to look it up. If you don't, then I made a summary for you. What can be better than this? Best of both worlds.

Is there no room for criticism? Not as a 'inferior guest`? After all you were referring to my post. If you read your own post carefully you might get conscious about what you are actually saying. I wanted to point that out. It was implicitly ontopic. But you seem to take my post offensive despite your own advice not to do that:).

Talking about consciousness in a psychology context. I am reading about this now. It says Consciousness includes the feeling and content of awareness. Some of it may be under attentional focus. More interesing I think are the conscious attentional processes. With 3 purposes it plays a causal role for cognition. 1. Monitoring our actions with the environment (adapting to situation) 2. Assists with linking our past (memories) with the present (sensations) which gives a continuum of experience (key to personal identity). 3. Helps controlling and planning for future actions (with help of 1 and 2).

With this information I was wondering if animals are conscious. First I thought not because my cat could not do these 3 things above. But then I saw on television an old dying monkey who was deeply grieving and intensely saying goodbye to her troops and headmaster of the zoo she was in. So maybe some animals do have cognitive consciousness.

Edited by Don_Homer, 06 October 2017 - 01:13 PM.

Molto Bene, Thats a nica Donut !


#186 Lonello

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 01:39 PM

a 'inferior guest`? After all you were referring to my post. If you read your own post carefully

Everybody knows me here to have open arms for newbees so there's nothing inferior here. In MT we're not part of any elite clique. Ofcourse, you're a very wellknown Dutch player too and we've known eachother for over a decade IRL so in that respect you know as much as I do and you have hardly the status you call on yourself here now.

 

Anyway, I worked in a team of people once for many years and at some point one emailed a line like "I told you before that...". Then one other person reacted outraged, said she was being so very condescending. That while nobody else in the team had thought anything of the line. So I started rereading a couple of times and sure, I admitted you could read it like that too. Often you can read things two ways. That's what you get with written pieces. But it was surely not her intent to be condescending so it was only on the eye of that beholder to take it that way.

Now, if you would read my line here, the intent is even more clear. As obviously I do not expect you as that 'newbee' on the forum to have read all the wallpapers of text here that have been written in the last couple of years. So I put in the energy for you to summarize what I had said before, even especially for you made all the Dutch references in that you would understand at the spot what I was talking about. My effort, doing that especially for you as a courtesy.

If you can still take that the wrong way then, it's just the way to live your life. Only black or white, no grey. Whether love or hate, right or wrong, and when in doubt, take the negative way. That's a way of coping with life so no judgments there as it probably protects you from harm. But I myself like to have an open mind, I both love AND hate Trump for instance, be right AND left on different occasions, see and acknowledge both worlds. Another level of consciousness, both of them are not right and not wrong, they just are.
 


Lo

#187 Don_Homer

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 05:50 PM

Youre missing the point entirely, but I dont want a long discussion. Anyway I know enough about American and Dutch politics. So you didnt help me at all. I wasnt even talking about these things in my original post.

Molto Bene, Thats a nica Donut !


#188 GaryLShelton

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 06:57 PM

More interesing I think are the conscious attentional processes. With 3 purposes it plays a causal role for cognition. 1. Monitoring our actions with the environment (adapting to situation) 2. Assists with linking our past (memories) with the present (sensations) which gives a continuum of experience (key to personal identity). 3. Helps controlling and planning for future actions (with help of 1 and 2).
With this information I was wondering if animals are conscious. First I thought not because my cat could not do these 3 things above. But then I saw on television an old dying monkey who was deeply grieving and intensely saying goodbye to her troops and headmaster of the zoo she was in. So maybe some animals do have cognitive consciousness.



If I remember my comparative religion class and all the Eastern religious materials I have read over time, I believe the Hindus describe animals as having a "veil" over their consciousness. The animals might have differing levels of this veil but it works to prevent their full awareness is my understanding. It seems a pretty good description of the situation generally, to me anyway.
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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#189 queenbee1

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 07:13 PM

 

 
Btw: I mistakenly thought this thread was about human consciousness, but I finally realized it’s Queenbee stream of consciousness.  :)

 

Exactly, but not limited to me.

 

Don Homer please don't go away. I consider you my internet friend as I do all those who contribute to the Off Topic Forums. I don't even know what was said. I am sure Lonello didn't mean anything. There must be something here to learn or it would have died a long time ago. Look at it now surpassing 10 pages and probably 70% of mine. I never look back. My consciousness is always changing. This is a thought experiment and if you are learning psychology (which was my major) you may find something of interest. Share as openly as you can.

 

Here is an interesting thing. I am visiting less and less as I don't see the point. I am Denys in the story line below. If you have never seen Out of Africa. It is for me one of the most intriguing movies of my life. They are sitting in Karen's home and Denys and her are having a conversation. She doesn't want him to leave again.

 

Karen Blixen: It's an odd feeling, farewell. There is such envy in it. Men go off to be tested, for courage. And if we're tested at all, it's for patience, for doing without, for how well we can endure loneliness.

 

Karen Blixen: When you go away... you don't always go on safari, do you? Just want to be away.

Denys: It's not meant to hurt you.

Karen Blixen: It does.

Denys: I'm with you because I choose to be with you. I don't want to live someone else's idea of how to live. Don't ask me to do that. I don't want to find out one day that I'm at the end of someone else's life.

 

That final statement hits me hard. I don't want to live someone else's life. I don't ever want to go to the inside of a nursing home ever again, but I do out of obligation, perhaps out of love and maybe because she has no one else. I don't know, but I am going less.

 

Then there is this comment he made about the natives that he would go on Safari with.

Denys: This tribe, we think we can tame them but we won't. They die in prison.

Karen Blixen: Why?

Denys: They live now. They have no concept of the future; that one day they will be let out. They think it's permanent and so they die.

Sometimes I wish I were more like them. Living in the day. No concept of the future. I'd rather die than he put in a nursing home, but by the time that happens, they have no choice. It is not uncommon for one of those patients to live for 20 years. Reduced to a state of being childlike. Some are sweet and some are mean old goats. I liken it to an insane asylum.

 

Don you mentioned you cat and I have owned many. They barely notice when another is sick and when they die they just carry on. There is no grieving. In some cultures dying is a cause for celebration. If we have free choice why does the government take it away in the end? If you don't have any idea how much it costs to warehouse the elderly it's about 70k a year.

 

I had clipped some details about Medicaid cuts, but edited them out to prevent this topic from declining into a political debate.


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#190 Don_Homer

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 07:51 PM

I wont go away QB, I just try to end a pointless discussion.

Maybe I like cats and Homer because they live in the present. They dont worry about tomorrow.

The NY link doesnt work here. But Im sure its bad. Trump seldomly surprises me positively. It will be a big problem with the elderly with or without him if I read the financial topic about your country....

I havent see that movie yet, but Im put it on my list. The conversation seems at hand for you. I dont know what I would do...

Molto Bene, Thats a nica Donut !


#191 queenbee1

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 11:20 PM

I had a good day today and I was able to spend time appreciating it. My cat loves it when I go outside with him. It was a lovely day and the grass is so green on my side of the street. I have survived so many obstacles because I try not to get mad for very long. I am not in charge of many things other than possibly my reaction to them. Thankfully, It's hard to stay angry.

 

I love laying in the grass with my cat. When life gets me down I must look like a crazy woman to my neighbors, but I am seeking my bliss in any way I can find it.

 

Another thing I want to relate is many humans on this planet would gladly trade places with me. The is something special or freeing about owning a home, having a mode of transportation and being debt free. So no need to sympathize for me. I am not rich, but I have more than most people ever dream of having.


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#192 DarthRemark

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 04:48 PM

I've been meaning to reply to this. Can you tell me how to identify the spirit? How you even know one exists? Harrison Ford did a movie a long time back called "Regarding Henry" about an attorney who was a real jerk, but he was shot and it damaged his brain. I should watch that again. JJ Abrams from Star Trek fame wrote the story.

 

The concept of God keeping score means that this is a game. The fact that God punishes some people means there are losers. Most people don't talk about consciousness as their hierarchy of needs haven't been met and they never reach self actualization. Haven't I mentioned that before? Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

 

Identifying the spirit goes right back to consciousness and free will.  The spirit is the actual person.  The resultant free choices that they’ve made.  We can’t prove it exists using science because the spirit isn’t material, but we can infer that it exists because we are self-aware and have free will.   
 
I’m a cat lover and am glad to see others here are too.  Cats are intelligent creatures, but they have limited awareness and they don’t seem to possess free will.  They are driven by instinct.  If you take a cat that’s otherwise healthy, but hasn’t been fed in two days, and you put out a can of Fancy Feast, it will absolutely eat it 100 times out of 100.  However, a human in a similar situation could choose not eat the food for any number of reasons that don’t have to do with instinct.  They might be starving and their body might demand the food but it ultimately doesn’t matter.  We are unique in this capacity as far as we know.  How does a creature gain the ability to choose against its instincts if we are in a Newtonian universe where everything is simply reaction to what came before?  It’s an unnatural ability that seems to transcend the material.  Our higher consciousness is the other side of the coin.  It enables us to contemplate these free decisions.  
 
We make free choices all throughout our life.  These are who we really are.  Assuming we are otherwise able minded.  The spirit is unaffected by faculty degrading conditions to the extent that the ability to make free choices has been reduced.
 
Scorekeeping is an imprecise description that I ran with because you introduced it.  It’s not really a game, it’s deadly serious.  And losing is relative.  In Stratego, if you lose you lose.  But you can also learn, so you gain.  If you overpay for a new car, then the seller could be said to have won, but you’ve still got a car you wanted and were willing to pay the price, so in that sense you didn’t really lose.  I’m not too familiar with Maslow’s heirarchy.  I think I remember it, probably from college days, but the details are long gone. 
 
I want to comment on some of the things you said earlier too, but it might be tomorrow.

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#193 queenbee1

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 08:32 PM

I edited "like like" to "look like" in my previous comment although I expect you all are smart enough to figure of my missed edits. Sam Harris wrote a book on Free Will that I highly recommend. He is a philosophy major and has a degree in neuroscience. He does lecture tours all over the US. He also offers free podcasts, but I support him anyway. He is constantly changing things up with different guests.

 

From the day I was born I was seeking to fulfill needs. I am not a big proponent of Maslow, but I am so eclectic in my thinking that I use many different scientists and philosophers trying to understand myself in relation to my environment and then use my words to describe how I feel.

 

Right now I am in a good place, but I know that I cannot stand still and maintain it. External forces affect how I act and react. Much of who I was in the past impacts the decisions I make today. I think I am my past acting out.

 

I think you are referring to as free will or being able to choose is ego. I chose the right behavior or I acted badly. That everything I do is based on choice.

 

Things like what happened in Las Vegas make me wonder how did this guy get so twisted that it resulted in these actions? What happened to him? He didn't just wake up and decide to randomly kill and injure strangers in a crowd. Something snapped. He never planned on being captured it appears. There had to be something to forced him to act despite knowing that his actions were horrific. Good men and women do terrible things. He was a victim as well. No one is born evil. Then again maybe they are.



#194 queenbee1

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 05:40 AM

I've been thinking about this terrible event today and the beginning of SNL prompted me to share more. My comment above is not to elicit any sympathy for the perpetrator. However, I think he is a symptom of the problem not the disease. I don't feel anything for him, but this has happened in so many times including Orlando. We are self aware, but in many cases self absorbed. Our country and the world is a victim of hatred that I cannot comprehend.

 

I don't understand this at all. I understand some people who say that guns don't kill people, but these weapons allow one lone person with now history of violence to kill more people at one time than our founding fathers could ever imagine. I don't know what can be done to stop this kind of mass murder. How can anyone feel safe in a crowd here or in Europe. In the Middle East it is a daily occurrence of car bombs and shootings into marketplaces.

 

I am not one for being in crowds, but this has changed me forever. I simply won't put myself in a position to be a victim. Yet I always feel like a victim when these things happen. It affects my psyche in a permanent way.

 

I don't have the answers, but doing nothing cannot be the answer. How can we stop a madman from driving his car into a crowd. Ban cars? Maybe if we can just take away one method of mass madness it will make us all feel safer going out at night. These are my thoughts. This is not a political debate. I can only bleed so much. After three hurricanes displacing millions and Las Vegas I am numb. There will be a next time.


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#195 Don_Homer

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 01:20 PM

I think your answer lies in the gun control (topic), QB. The incidents with mass killings in US are much more frequent than here in Europe.

In our country they put concrete blocks with flowers to prevent car attacks. They did this in Amsterdam recently.

I have the same questions about the las vegas killer. Are there any clues why he did it?

Molto Bene, Thats a nica Donut !


#196 DarthRemark

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 03:46 PM

We are self aware, but in many cases self absorbed. Our country and the world is a victim of hatred that I cannot comprehend.

 

Self-absorption is itself a choice.  These problems are societal more than anything else.  We’ve had guns and the ability to construct personal bombs since the founding.  Automatic weapons and cars for 100 years.  But the mass killing epidemic is relatively new.  It’s not the tools.  It’s the free agent wielding them.​



#197 DarthRemark

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 04:20 PM

 

I wonder if immortals think What will be doing 100 million years from now? I can barely remember last week as I do not have an Eidetic memory. Will my eternal soul have the ability to remember 2017 a 100 million years from now? So this lifetime is pretty much irrelevant in the grander scheme of things. It really doesn't matter or does it?

The duration of existence doesn't diminish the importance of a given part of it.  If this phase of existence will determine the rest then it's crucial.

 

 

but at the time General Washington was a traitor and a terrorist. You cannot blame the economic conditions, the madness of King George, bad parenting, abuse at the hands of others you just have to believe you were right and had good intentions.

This is actually very pertinent to the gun control topic.  I’ve sometimes wondered which side I would have taken if I were alive in the 1770’s.  It’s a huge leap to take up arms against the existing government.  It wasn’t something done lightly.  Washington didn’t do it for personal gain.  In fact, the odds were good that he would fail and be hung.  He did it from personal conviction.  And this wasn’t a simple belief that he was right and others were wrong.  Here is the text of the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence:

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Important points:

 

1) Men (and women) are endowed by a Creator.  Not themselves.  A higher power.
2) With unalienable rights.  These are rights that don’t change regardless of the scenario.
3) Governments derive their power from the consent of the governed.

 

I agree with all of this.  It is the moral justification for rebellion against a government.

 

If my intent to kill is because the government said it was the bad guys I am rewarded, but doesn't the same go for the so called bad guys? What if I kill someone without "orders" or I aim at the bad guys and shoot a kid or his mother? I am still a murderer am I not? You will never find a shortage of people who want to impose the death penalty. Plenty of hangmen will gladly pull the lever.

We are all responsible to a higher authority.  Just following orders is no excuse. 

 

 

Don't you think that healthcare professionals can determine if this person is beyond saving

I really don't know about this.  I honestly haven’t pondered this topic a lot and have never been in that situation.  It’s very tricky ground though.  If a person is mentally degraded how can you know they won’t recover or would want to die?  And if they are well enough to ask for death themselves can you really trust them to be of sound mind?  No one wants to see a family wreck their fortune on medical bills when there’s little or no chance of recovery.  It’s a horrible situation.  But what do you propose?  Maybe a living will that specifies when it reaches a certain stage then they are killed?  Who carries out the sentence?

 

in Matthew 25 it says "For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me." How does that jibe with the wall people now want? How many of you offered even a dollar to the relief efforts in Houston or Florida or Puerto Rico? Now we see them as The Other and we shun them or condemn them for being different.

 

You can help people and protect your home at the same time.

 
btw: I gave to the Hurricane relief effort. ;)

 

Note to DarthRemark do not read the rest of my comment.

How can you possibly type something like that and not expect me to read. :)

 

Sports are a unifying time and we need that.  Politics can happen elsewhere.  I think I covered this position well on the other thread.  Freedom of speech doesn’t extend to the workplace. 


Edited by DarthRemark, 08 October 2017 - 04:21 PM.

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#198 DarthRemark

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 04:23 PM

Let me ask a question. What is the point of Christianity? I am not down on them. I like Christians even if I don't understand them. You believe that you will go to heaven don't you? If you are a sinner and do not repent you will be eternally damned yes? 

The point of Christianity is relationship with God.  Christians believe that mankind has fallen short of God and is unable to commune with him because of this.  Christ came to the world to bridge the gap.  Damnation is not an inflicted punishment, it’s the resultant end.  A good analogy is a dying man in a hospital.  There’s a medicine that will save him but he refuses so he dies.  The doctor didn’t kill him for not taking the medicine. 


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#199 queenbee1

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 01:04 AM

Note to self. Today many funerals were held for the victims of our collective insanity. It is now a part of who I am and I wish it weren't so. There will be a next time and a next and a next. There is no time to just stop. I imagine that the casinos are full of people gambling on NFL football today. 

 

People who by next week's end will not remember that infamous day as I don't remember the date of the Orlando shootings. So I looked it up and it happened on a Sunday morning at 2:00am June the 12th 2016. Maybe I will remember that in a year. Las Vegas was also on a Sunday as well. Whatever happened to remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy?

 

Maybe I can expect the next biggest mass shooting on a Sunday in 2018. Don't go out with a lot of people to places easily chosen for another disaster.

 

It raining hard with thunder and lightning. Things are pretty much back to normal in Orlando. Yesterday they started cleaning up the mess. Thankfully the latest hurricane didn't come my way.

 

I don't understand those people in PR while the country is dark and in chaos they act like a bunch of schoolgirls seeing the Beatles. Those paper towels will be on Ebay by now. I understand how he loves to be adored, but the optics were terrible and he should have people around him to stop him acting like a child.

 

I pray in my own way for the people in Seoul and those who will die in the next mass murder.

 

The air smells great after the rainstorm. A few thoughts that took me three hours to complete.



#200 queenbee1

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:02 AM

Surrounded by death. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil....59 souls went to a concert. They never came home. The party never ends. Where did they go?

 

The moon goes round the Earth. The Earth goes the Sun. The Sun goes round the galaxy. The galaxy goes round the universe. What does the universe go around? Eternity of bliss sounds just awful.

 

Life seems circular rather than linear. So many thoughts. So little time to contemplate them.

 

I saw death again tonight. I think it backed off, but I don't know why. It will be back tomorrow. My GF told me don't be afraid, but I was afraid.

 

Her neighbor had a blank stare of death tonight as I have seen it before. Then all of a sudden she was "clear" for a moment and told the nurse who was frantic "don't worry be happy." If it wasn't so sad it would be funny. The nurse by shear will brought her back. "Don't die on me dammit." She'd already seen one go tonight.

 

To me death for her would be a welcome relief from all the delusions and hallucinations. For my partner it is very different. I have so much more invested, but the truth is I cannot stop it when it comes. "Ask not for whom the bell tolls....."


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