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"Pro" Set-Ups and New Players


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#1 Silverhammer

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Posted 06 July 2016 - 01:58 AM

Hey everyone!

I had an interesting idea about new players using "pro set-ups". See what you think!

 

Leave a comment!

I'd love to see this become a big topic!

 

If you like my content subscribe for more later!

 

Video on the subject: https://youtu.be/_KhppR_blUQ



#2 sevenseas

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Posted 06 July 2016 - 05:17 PM

I find it more difficult using setups that aren't my own creation. With my own setups I have a plan for how I use my pieces and when


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#3 Ides of March

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 10:19 PM

I mentioned this on your Youtube clip a couple of days ago so forgive the repeat but.....anyway,

 

Try posting a video dealing with setups, strategies, etc on the various levels of play:  Bronze, Silver, Gold and

Platinum.

 

Perhaps you could do them all on one video or break it up into a 4 part series dealing with each one.

 

You could play some players on each level, discuss game moves with them and of course, live commentary with games.

 

Its probably a little time consuming but I think it would be entertaining and a useful instructional tool.



#4 Ides of March

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 10:21 PM

.....maybe a compare and contrast between each of the levels of play?



#5 rgillis783

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 08:53 PM

Saw your youtube video-great idea. Told a few beginners about it, must agree with other players posting. Good information but playing the game against others is best way to learn .



#6 Dobby125

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 09:22 PM

Here's a fun, challenging way to play to "new" setups.  Download the free Probe stratego game.  Set the game to "expert level" and time limit to 15 seconds.  Then choose "random" setup for your start and designed setup for Probe's start.  Then try to win 5 in a row against the computer.  It's not that easy.  It should help you learn what good/bad setups are all about.


My Youtube Stratego Channel: https://www.youtube....cGDvlZZkGbgq0LA


#7 The Winged Hussar

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Posted 08 September 2016 - 11:05 PM

Here's a fun, challenging way to play to "new" setups.  Download the free Probe stratego game.  Set the game to "expert level" and time limit to 15 seconds.  Then choose "random" setup for your start and designed setup for Probe's start.  Then try to win 5 in a row against the computer.  It's not that easy.  It should help you learn what good/bad setups are all about.

Dobby125,

 

I downloaded the Probe game but could not figure our how to play a game.

 

I went to all the stuff on the side bar but nothing could get me started in a game.

 

Amazing, really, all of this complexity and options and yet something as simple as a "start" button is too much to ask.....

 

Any ideas? 

 

Thanks,

 

~The Winged Hussar~



#8 Dobby125

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 12:17 AM

Dobby125,

 

I downloaded the Probe game but could not figure our how to play a game.

 

I went to all the stuff on the side bar but nothing could get me started in a game.

 

Amazing, really, all of this complexity and options and yet something as simple as a "start" button is too much to ask.....

 

Any ideas? 

 

Thanks,

 

~The Winged Hussar~

 

To start a new game, you have to click the "File" menu.  Then click the "New" option.  A box appears and gives you the options of random or designed setup.  Then click Random for your own option and Designed for Probe's option and the game should start.  

Under the "Tools" option Menu is where the skill level and time limit appears. The random starts can be really, really awful.  Winning 5 in a row is not easy.


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My Youtube Stratego Channel: https://www.youtube....cGDvlZZkGbgq0LA


#9 GaryLShelton

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 01:39 PM

You can also save games there and replay them at quick speed. That's kind of fun.

I just wish the darned thing would play on my phone. Alas, it's a desktop game only. :(

i77rs4m.jpg

The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#10 Master Mind

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 08:09 PM

Great fun to play that :) Thanks for sharing it with us Dobby!


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#11 Dobby125

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 08:10 PM

Great fun to play that :) Thanks for sharing it with us Dobby!

 

I love playing Probe with the random setup.  It's extremely hard to win 5 in a row.  I've been getting some of the worst random setups possible.  Probe can play extremely well at times.  But sometimes it plays very strange.  When it's losing a lot in late mid-game it tends to shuffle pieces.  It does a pretty good job of lottoing in the late game.


My Youtube Stratego Channel: https://www.youtube....cGDvlZZkGbgq0LA


#12 queenbee1

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 07:10 AM

The problem with AI is it does not retain memory and it cannot make judgements based on bluffs. I wish I had access to Stratego.com's statistics so that I could make some qualified statements about the game accurately. Playing the game over and over again will not make you a better player. It is remembering what worked and what doesn't. The limitations of movements are vital as are risk vs reward.

 

At some point if you are 1 in 10k (that is just a guess) you may make it to platinum marshal. The game loses its luster as you remember nearly every possible outcome. Then who is the computer? They end up always reacting to the game as it unfolds in the same way. At some point there is nothing more they can learn as we all have memorization limits on what we can store and recall. They are the best.

 

I wonder how many variables really there are. Plus factor in players who don't care about winning or losing. Once you reach the top the computer is designed to rarely match you with the 1000s of bronze or silver players. The bronze and silver player just play over and over, but with same moves and the same players will little variants. Eventually, unless they change their methods they will stop gaining ELO. They will go up and down 100 ELO 1000 times.

 

Then there are tournaments that pit the best against the best. How much difference is there between a player ranked at 1000 playing a player ranked at 900? A cursory glance would say 10% better, but what does that really mean. Emotion also plays a factor. Confidence matters.

 

How does one reach the pinnacle and what happens when you reach the ceiling? Jumbo changed the rules and expanded the rankings. It artificially pushed everyone upward. Nothing really changed. Do you ever wonder why Heilco and about 10 other players always end up in the finals of tournaments? What is it that they have? Maybe they just started earlier than others ergo more experience? What is it? It's not playing more games as I have seen players with over 10-15k games and they are still bronze.

 

They play discover, chase and trap over and over again. Silver players tend to move on to marshal/general blitzes. Gold players defend well, but tend to place their highest pieces in the back two rows to maintain protection of the flag and bring them into play late. By then the silver player has lost his edge and pieces attacking until it is too late for them to protect their flag.

 

Platinum are all about piece movement. They see the square rule moved in advance. They do not move anything without a reason nor do they move pieces in their last two rows until the late game. Controlling their opponent based on bluffing and the limited amount of options they have to choose. Putting them into win/lose positions only they recognize. To them information is king.

 

That is my simplistic and completely unsubstantiated by statistic observations.


Edited by queenbee1, 17 October 2016 - 11:01 PM.

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#13 --Wogomite--

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 11:46 AM

Check out jayoogee.com
I found this the other day and was quite pleased with the play level. This ai seemed to know the right way to find info and use it without forgetting .It also would retreat to defense well if an unknown was becoming aggressive. The way it used the square rule also made it more challenging. I read that this specific ai finished as one of the top if not the top stratego ai in the world.
It really felt like a human playing a majority of the game. It creeped me out a little bit.

#14 iron_maiden

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 08:26 PM

A lot of my best setups have come from an idea already out there - by that I mean I used someone else's setup initially, maybe quite liked it so kept using it but as time goes on you start to see the same problems arising, or you start to see what works very well more often. That's when you tweak and try moving a few bits around to optimise it - and this is when it really becomes your own setup played how you know to play it.

 

Setup is massively important - on gravon where you can save many, I have several I'd never dream of using in a ranked game or over here. That doesn't mean they are silly (e.g. flag in front row) but I know they have limitations and are not conducive to beating good players. I have them purely for fun in non-ranked games when I fancy a challenge or just doing something different for once.

 

Also, if you know the opponent and their style of play, your setup can be adapted to take advantage of that (usually only if they play lotto from the start or shuffle).

 

I don't think experience is what gets you to the top - it isn't a case of how long you've played. Just like any sport or game, there are extreme levels very few can get to. If Stratego was something you could make a living from, Hielco and the other top players would be the ones earning the biggest pay days from tournaments, sponsorships, etc. Not everyone can get to the highest level and certainly not by just playing a lot.



#15 iron_maiden

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 08:31 PM

Oh and one other thing - be prepared to change your setup sometimes. If you have a bad run of results with your tried and tested setup, it can really help to switch something up - not everything, just a few key pieces here and there. Maybe opponents have seen the setup before, maybe you've lost confidence and are making rushed decisions...whatever it is if the results aren't there when they used to be, its time for change. I learned this myself recently, dropping from platinum marshal all the way down to platinum miner and I just couldn't get back up above captain level. I couldn't understand it, the results simply weren't coming like they used to. I wasted too much time when I should have been tinkering with my setups - once I did this, results came my way again and now I'm back to the top level. Don't keep relying on the same old 1 or 2 setups basically! :)



#16 queenbee1

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 11:08 PM

@iron_maiden all good stuff and @--wogomite-- I will check that website out. 

 

I was on a tear as of late, but I hit someone who recognized my setup so that means I need to start keeping track of those I play with making notes as I do after tournament matches. I just can't seem to find the time or put in the effort. After a loss I just stroll around my backyard and sometimes lay in the grass with my cat. It helps me to remember that it is just a game. A damn good game and worthy of my attention and time.



#17 The Prof

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 04:56 AM

How much difference is there between a player ranked at 1000 playing a player ranked at 900? A cursory glance would say 10% better, but what does that really mean. 

 

I liked your post; lots of truth there about the different level of players.  I couldn't resist answering your question above:  A player rated 100 ELO points higher than his/her opponent is expected to win 64% of the time, and it doesn't matter whether it is 1000 vs. 900, or 400 vs. 300.  



#18 queenbee1

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 06:40 AM

I liked your post; lots of truth there about the different level of players.  I couldn't resist answering your question above:  A player rated 100 ELO points higher than his/her opponent is expected to win 64% of the time, and it doesn't matter whether it is 1000 vs. 900, or 400 vs. 300.  

Thank Prof. I think I said a lot of things most top players know. Your clarification on the winning percentage is a nice added bonus. I recently won 8 games in a row before losing 2. In the losses their setups matched mine perfectly and I got a little impatient. Patience is not one of my strong suits so the longer the game drags out the less likely I am going to win. I am learning more aggressive play and soon expect to break down some barriers. I love this game as it challenges me. When I play in tournaments the games are close, but sometimes I get reckless.

 

I like astros signature that 60% of the time he wins every time.


Edited by queenbee1, 18 October 2016 - 06:43 AM.


#19 --Wogomite--

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 10:27 AM

Queenbee mentioned to me that the website I posted above did not take her anywhere so I am giving a direct link to the site. I am also going to give the description that the website has on there main page.

Link:http://www.jayoogee....asteroftheflag/

Description:If you are looking for a web site where you can play Stratego for free against a computer, you are in the right place. Master of the Flag is an online strategy game similar to the classic board game Stratego.

The Master of the Flag computer program is one of the strongest Stratego AI engines in world, with top placements in the Computer Stratego World Championships 2007 - 2010.


#20 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 18 October 2016 - 10:11 PM

 

 

I don't think experience is what gets you to the top - it isn't a case of how long you've played. Just like any sport or game, there are extreme levels very few can get to. If Stratego was something you could make a living from, Hielco and the other top players would be the ones earning the biggest pay days from tournaments, sponsorships, etc. Not everyone can get to the highest level and certainly not by just playing a lot.

 

I have to disagree somehow ... In my case I still observe that I'm progressing the more i play. Playing a lot makes you recognize similar situations you've been faced with in the past and from which you've learned some lessons. Facing the same situation again you try not making the same mistake you've made in the past and thus your response on the board is improved. As well the more you play the more you develop your reflexes and the less you need time to think what to do.

 

I liked your post; lots of truth there about the different level of players.  I couldn't resist answering your question above:  A player rated 100 ELO points higher than his/her opponent is expected to win 64% of the time, and it doesn't matter whether it is 1000 vs. 900, or 400 vs. 300.  

 

what is my probability to win my next wco online game round 3 against Hielco if we consider a 1230 vs 950 true ELO level difference? If I have a loss record against him of 6:0 what is my probability to win the next game? ;)


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