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#961 murph878

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 01:55 AM

Here's a link showing actual photos of the Obama-era detention facilities. Are these the 10 you're talking about? ;)

http://dailycaller.c...ion-facilities/

Once again getting the facts wrong. These are centers for UNACCOMPANIED minors, not children that are separated from families. ;).

Might not want to get your news from Daily Caller

Youd think that two immigration lawyers from texas would know the difference between trump and obama policies.

https://www.khou.com...s/285-565759128

Edited by murph878, 03 September 2018 - 01:57 AM.


#962 DarthRemark

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 03:09 AM

Well, thanks for clearing that up.  :)  So the outrage isn't that they're caged, but just that we'd actually separate children from criminally charged parents?  Something that we do every day with American citizens.  The real problem here is our broken system that doesn't have a way to effectively deal with the flood of illegals.  I think we should be keeping these kids with their parents.  I also think we shouldn't let them walk free into the country and we need to stop the flow.  How about we work on real solutions?  Something few in power right now truly want.  


#963 murph878

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 03:17 AM

Well, thanks for clearing that up. :) So the outrage isn't that they're caged, but just that we'd actually separate children from criminally charged parents? Something that we do every day with American citizens. The real problem here is our broken system that doesn't have a way to effectively deal with the flood of illegals. I think we should be keeping these kids with their parents. I also think we shouldn't let them walk free into the country and we need to stop the flow. How about we work on real solutions? Something few in power right now truly want.

I agree with this. Im not against improving our immigration system and preventing mass illegal immigration. I honestly dont know enough to say how we should do this. I am against separating children from parents as a deterrent. Thats all. Thats not what American values are. No other country does this by the way. They keep families together as best they can

Edited by murph878, 03 September 2018 - 03:19 AM.


#964 scottrussia

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 04:30 AM

Dude you realize its their job and legal to investigate families that have been reported to child services. Then they have to get a court order to remove them from their house. Its a whole process that our govt has set up to protect our children as best they can.

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That is factually incorrect.  There are three ways for CPS to be allowed to remove a child from their home.

 

1. As you state, a court order signed by a judge allows CPS to remove a child and place them in state approved care.

2. Emergency removals, where there are exigent circumstances relative to the health of the child

3. With parental consent.

 

I'll say more about #2 and #3 in another post.  Separately, when you say protect OUR children - I hope you mean in an abstract way.  Because my children are MY CHILDREN, your children are YOUR CHILDREN, my neighbor's children are HIS/HER CHILDREN.  While I try to be a good neighbor and help those around me, it is not my place to tell my neighbor how to raise their children.  It is my place and responsibility to raise my children as best as I can - and my moral obligation to help those around me.  I may feel my neighbor is too lenient or too strict with their children - I may even in a nice way suggest that something different every now and then can work also - but it is not for me to judge their parental choices.

 

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Youre making it seem like they are going around kidnapping kids for no reason. No they are kids that have been reported and then they are doing their jobs according to the law.

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Almost correct.  I am saying that CPS is going around and traumatizing families by kidnapping their children - based on perceived neglect by one CPS official.  They are determining families to be guilty prior to being found innocent.  How does that fit in any way into due process?

 

And I disagree that they are doing their jobs according to the law.  According to the law.  When a CPS agent informs the parent that they are opening an investigation - they legally must tell them what they have been accused of.  This rarely happens.  The agent informs them of either abuse or neglect - those are categories - they are not specific allegations. 

 

Secondly, CPS officials do not have the right to enter anyone's home without a warrant.  This is rarely if ever disclosed by the CPS officials.  Why?  Because under the 4th amendment all warrantless searches are presumed illegal (except under exigent circumstances).  So the officials make it appear that they have this right - often by having a police officer (who also needs a warrant) come with them.  It creates the appearance of legitimacy and it also creates fear - making it more likely the parent will comply with the REQUEST to search the home.  By accepting the REQUEST, the parent has now waived their 4th amendment protection. (but how many poor parents know that?).

 

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Would you rather when abuse is reported they just not investigate it then? What if some kid is getting abused and they just hand them back to their parents to get abused again?

 

Again, you confuse abuse with neglect.  Abuse has three categories, physical abuse, sexual abuse, psychological abuse.  All three of these result in almost all cases where CPS believes the accusation - in criminal proceedings. Evidence is collected, witnesses sought, and criminal cases are built.  In a minority of cases, physical abuse will be deemed as a correctable action and a CPS plan of support services and requirements will be put together and the parent told that if they fulfill the plan they may be able to get their child back in the future.  Obviously, sexual abuse (that CPS believes) is processed through the criminal court system.

 

Neglect on the other hand rarely involves any criminal charges.  What the charge really is - is poor parenting or poor parenting decisions.  And this is the category that rips apart the vast majority of the families that are totally innocent.  What is the standard that parents have to follow?  Oh, the standard is whatever ANYONE WHO PICKS UP THE PHONE AND CALLS CPS decides it is.

 

That is a standard no parent can meet.

 

So I would expect that CPS are professionals that should be able to determine what are allegations of actual abuse.  And what are allegations of parental neglect.  When the neglect is parental decision making or approach, I would expect them to not investigate unless the allegation is something severe.  

 

Will CPS ever be able to catch every instance of abuse - No.  Heck, the Foster Care system is rife with abuse (and those supposed to also be the good guys!).  So it is a false narrative that says you must choose between abuse and destroying families.  No matter how many families you tear apart there will still be abuse you don't catch.

---------------------------------------------------

 

The 33,000 kids are not being kidnapped. They are legally and justly being investigated and then given back when there is no evidence of abuse. What else are the supposed to do?

 

Well, yes they are actually being kidnapped.  Kidnapping is the act of seizing, confining, abducting or carrying away a person by force or fraud.  These children are by HHS's own admission being seized from their parents - against their will - with the force of law.  Later, in tens of thousands of instances each year - HHS admits they were wrong.  So if they were wrong, their action was fraudulent - then the action was kidnapping.  Children are seized against their and their parent's will, they are taken away by force - and the grounds for the actions prove to be fraudulent.  

 

Just because its the "good" bureaucrats doesn't change what takes place.

 

And I disagree that they are legally being investigated.  As I mentioned previously, CPS officials are not forthcoming with those they investigate.  They do not inform them of their rights.  They often take actions to make it appear those being investigated DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHTS THEY ACTUALLY POSESS.  The presumption is guilt, not innocence.  At no time is the parent allowed to face their accuser.

 

When CPS obtains a warrant to remove a child prior to engaging with the parent, the only item submitted to the judge is the CPS official's report.  The parent is given NO OPPORTUNITY TO FACE THEIR ACCUSER, NOR REFUTE SUPPOSED ALLEGATIONS AGAINST THEM!  Only later, when physical custody of their children has been removed, will there be a hearing in which the accused parent can ask the judge to return their children.  This is a total violation of due process.

 

Justly - thats an amazing adjective to use.  Its just to wrongly remove 30,000+ children from their parents every year?  I think you'll have a tough time convincing any parent that has their child seized - when they have done nothing wrong - that the act of kidnapping their child is "JUSTLY".

 

I am glad you at least realize these children are being seized with no evidence of any abuse whatsoever.  And returned only when it becomes evident there is no abuse or neglect.  That means you at least realize that any CPS official can determine you to be guilty until proven innocent.  And I don't believe there is any room in our justice system for that approach.

 

What else are they supposed to do?  Lets stick with some simple things.  How about our legislature does the brave thing and removes the requirement that every single call to CPS mandates an investigation.  And agents use common sense and experience to determine how best to use their resources.  Remove parental decisions as a form of neglect.  Its up to the parent to decide if their son/daughter is old enough to walk to the park unsupervised.  Its up to the parent to decide if their daughter can sit in the car for 5 minutes.  Its up to the parent to decide if their two 9 and 11 year old children can be trusted at home for 20 minutes. 

 

Remove being poor as a form of bad parenting.  Poor parents by necessity leave their children in different environments than rich parents.  That often includes community settings.  Being sent to the park to play.  Being sent to the apartment complex parking lot to play.  These are not acts of neglect.  They are acts of necessity.  Nor are they somehow more dangerous than in the past.  And a strong argument can be made that they actually help a child to develop social intelligence and awareness.

 

You must be able to face your accuser.  Anonymous claims in the area of neglect must be done away with.  If some protections need to be kept for allegations of sexual abuse and physical abuse - fine.  No child whose parent is accused only of neglect - should be able to be removed from the home by CPS unless the parent has his/her day in court.  And the standard of proof should be beyond a reasonable doubt.  (not today's preponderance of the evidence).

 

Laws need to be changed to differentiate between a "professionals" responsibility to report sexual abuse and neglect.  The standard for neglect should be very high.  CPS should be spending their resources on helping victims of abuse - not making determinations on specific parental decisions or approaches.

 

CPS officials should only be allowed to investigate the specific claim.  Far too often, what actually takes place is the investigation is a way to add lots of little things to the original accusation.   Dirty home, evidence of alcohol consumption, children up late at night.  It becomes a form of piling on instead of determining if the accusation is true.

 

Finally, CPS officials should be required to tell people of their rights - including the right to not permit them to investigate their home without a warrant.  And CPS should be required to record all interviews with children - with parent's having the right to those recordings.  Both of those will greatly aid poor parents and protect from overzealous agents damaging children.  

 

There is a lot more but those would be a good start.


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#965 scottrussia

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 05:32 AM

It is important to understand at a granular level how its possible that our own government is traumatizing tens of thousands of families each and every year.  Families that have done nothing wrong - and are treated as guilty until proven innocent.

 

Our Media does a great job on reporting on tragedies.  Not actually reporting on any underlying issue.  But on the actual tragedy.  So when a child is killed in some sick or perverted way - its all over the news.

 

Then the politicians get involved.  They have to do something - just so they can tell voters they did something.  

 

A few years ago in NYC there was a well publicized case of a child that had been in contact with NYC CPS and was later grusomely murdered.  The mayor was interviewed the following day 

 

Mayor de Blasio “Our mission is to save every child,” he said. “Unlike pretty much any other area in government—we do not set a standard for perfection in policing or so many other areas—in this case we do set a standard of perfection.” He said, “Our job is to get there first and intervene and stop it".

 

Now, if you work in CPS NYC I think the message here is very clear.  You do whatever you have to do to ensure that NO CHILD DIES.

So practically what takes place.  Well CPS officials are much more likely to then "up the ante" so to speak.  Quicker to remove children, they will remove more children, and they will be less likely to work to return these children to their families.  Which brings us back to #2 and #3 in my previous post.

 

#2 will also increase.  CPS officials will visit apartment complexes where they have had many cases in the past.  They will see run down buildings, trash, dirty hallways - all signs of poverty.  And they will deem the combination of poverty with the allegation as an exigent circumstance.  And they will be backed up by the city.  Do whatever you have to do.

 

#3 will also increase.  CPS officials will do more than ask when faced with the combination of poverty and accusations.  They'll tell the parent of all the services CPS can help them with (including better housing).  That later they can be reunited with their children.  Just sign here.  Do whatever you have to do.

 

In the same article a gentleman by the name of Martin Guggenheim was interviewed.  He worked in the Juvenile Rights Division in NYC for many years and is now a law professor at NYU and is considered a child advocate.  I have to assume he's seen some of the worst of the worst during his career.  But here is what he says about the ideas expressed by the mayor.

 

"The reckless destruction of American families in pursuit of the goal of protecting children is as serious a problem as the failure to protect children.  We need to understand that destroying the parent-child relationship is among the highest forms of state violence.  It should be cabined and guarded like a nuclear weapon.  You use it when you must."  

  

 

And that is a perfect summary.

 

Yes, CPS has a difficult job.  No matter what is done, all abuse cannot be caught and prevented.  But preying on innocent parents and their children is not the answer.  It might make someone feel good to say - we are doing everything we can.  But when the result is state sponsored kidnapping and traumatizing tens of thousands of children, then people have to stand up and speak truth to power.


Edited by scottrussia, 03 September 2018 - 05:33 AM.

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#966 scottrussia

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 05:55 AM

But unlike trump policy they investigate and use the legal system to take appropriate action on a case to case basis 

 

Unfortunately, HHS own reports and statistics don't back up your statement.  

 

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And as i pointed out if you jaywalk you are breaking the law. Let me separate you from your family the next time you do because according to the law, they are the exact same infraction. Does the punishment fit the crime?

 

Unlike illegal immigration jaywalking doesn't require deportation.  If requires you to pay a fine.  The legal system currently requires that children not be incarcerated with their parents.  The current legal system also requires that these illegal immigrants not be immediately deported but rather held for a deportation hearing before a judge so that they may make a claim of asylum if they chose to do so.  

 

And it is amazing that in all your posts you place no blame on the parents.  You place no blame on legislatures.  You place no blame on the very judges that have created rulings that result in our government being unable to do something most of us would be as being common sense.  You yourself said "It is perfectly fine to prosecute them or send them back for crossing illegally".  Yet that is exactly what the zero tolerance policy was about - prosecuting all entering illegal immigrants and sending them back without releasing them into the United States.

 

So perhaps what you were saying is that its perfectly fine to prosecute them if you ignore the law and somehow keep the children with the parents.  Yet the same people protesting today (according to you) protested keeping families locked up together prior to being prosecuted.  Protest keeping them together - Protest taking them apart.

 

And no protest or reporting on American families, guilty of nothing, traumatized by their own government tearing their families apart

 

Its all truly amazing.


Edited by scottrussia, 03 September 2018 - 05:56 AM.

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#967 Fairway

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 12:31 PM

Darth you're back! :D


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#968 murph878

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 02:34 PM

We're talking in circles now ScottRussia. Yes the govt is just going out kidnapping children every day and no one is talking about it. You're right.

Your point was that there was no media coverage of CPS injustice and no one cares. I pointed out 3 articles in the past few days, just on the first page of google news. There are thousands more. Theres a whole dept of the govt and several regulatory boards that try and make the process better and keep our children safe. Many investigative reports into the process

So stop saying the media doesnt care about American lives.

Edited by murph878, 03 September 2018 - 02:40 PM.


#969 DarthRemark

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 03:57 PM

Darth you're back! :D

Not really.  :)  I just stopped by last night.  I got an intriguing PM notice from FKS about a RL tourney in Chicago.  Sounds neat, although I probably won't make it.  It's nice to see the Trump thread is alive and well though.  There's always something to talk about on this topic.  :P



#970 scottrussia

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 04:34 PM

Just keep drinking the Kool-Aid.

 

When the knock on the door comes for one for one of your adult children and your grandchildren are taken.  Just tell yourself its the price we all have pay.

 

Of course, you'll then probably need a lot more Kool-Aid.


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#971 Don_Homer

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Posted 4 weeks ago

A lot of things happened. I probably have forgotten a lot but this I know:

- Today Trump acknowledged that the climate is changing! (finally!)

- Trump had a meeting in the White house with Kanye West (who was talking pretty incoherent and was wearing a Trump cap).
- Trump has warned Saoudi Arabia after the cruel things that happened in their consulate in Turkey...

- The UN ambassador did quit. She has been critisising Trump before she took the job. Does these things have a relation? 

 

Its been an interesting week once again!


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#972 Fairway

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Posted 4 weeks ago

Well, yes, of course climate change is real. The climate is changing, that's obvious. The question is, are the changes caused

by humans, or natural forces and will different regulations and restrictions fix it?

 

Nikki Haley did criticize Trump before she took he job(actually, before the election), she was appointed/selected ambassador the week after his inauguration. But also Paul Ryan ,McConnell, and really the entire Republican leadership criticized him and now they're all buddy-buddy. And Haley said that Trump's policies did not affect her resignation either. She's worked for Trump well over a year now since "criticizing him" so pretty grim prospects of a "relation".


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#973 Don_Homer

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Posted 4 weeks ago

Well, yes, of course climate change is real. The climate is changing, that's obvious. The question is, are the changes caused

by humans, or natural forces and will different regulations and restrictions fix it?

 

Nikki Haley did criticize Trump before she took he job(actually, before the election), she was appointed/selected ambassador the week after his inauguration. But also Paul Ryan ,McConnell, and really the entire Republican leadership criticized him and now they're all buddy-buddy. And Haley said that Trump's policies did not affect her resignation either. She's worked for Trump well over a year now since "criticizing him" so pretty grim prospects of a "relation".

Im pretty certain we have a bad influence on the climate, Fairway. I think Trump will confess it sooner or later. I hope we can make things better…

 

You say grim prospects of a relation. But do you know why she quit then? I had the impression she was doing pretty good at the UN.


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#974 ProbeMaster

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Posted A week ago

Well, today we get to find out how much of the American electorate has had second thoughts about whether MAGA was actually such a great idea. But, no matter the outcome of the specific races up for grabs, the shift in the tone and content of American politics in recent years is extraordinary. And not just limited to the U.S., of course. There's a global, willful amnesia afoot about the risks of authoritarianism, in the hopes that the right strongman might somehow offer solutions to the issues of the day. Political history, clearly, says otherwise, but I guess there's no way to escape the evolutionary history that predisposes so many of us to seek out this type of leadership. We may live in modern metropolises, but we act as though we are still members of primitive tribes.

 

And so the wheel turns another revolution...


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