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#221 The Prof

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Posted A week ago

Trump is too easy a target. I think the real scandal is the healthcare bill they are trying to pass in the dead of night.

 

This says it all:  Asked why details of the proposed healthcare bill were not being made public, a senate staffer replied "We're not stupid."


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#222 queenbee1

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Posted A week ago

This says it all:  Asked why details of the proposed healthcare bill were not being made public, a senate staffer replied "We're not stupid."

They may not be stupid, but what arrogance they have. They seem to think they can get over on the American people by passing laws while we are asleep.

 

I visited a doctor today and the cell phone epidemic didn't surprise me at all. Mine was in my purse and being ignored. The rest of those wait for the valets to bring them their cars were like rats in a Skinner box trying like hell to get a food pellet as a reward. When one young lady put her phone down I started a conversation about how I was looking forward to the day of driverless cars. She said she had trust issues with them and I referred her to the fact that we already have driver assisted cars. She mentioned the liability issue. I said that is a valid point, but that I have trust issues with people. Machines don't drive under the influence. They won't run stop lights and will be much safer.

 

I should also have said machines wouldn't have voted for Trump.



#223 MAGATRiUMPh

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Posted A week ago

"We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it..." ~then-Speaker Nancy Pelosi, March 9, 2010.

Short memory? A lot of deception was involved in getting the "Affordable" Care Act pushed through.

I don't like the current efforts though. It is essentially trying to polish the Obamacare turd.

VarveG20170312_low.jpg


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#224 queenbee1

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Posted A week ago

Obamacare is better than nothing at all. It was what could get passed in Congress. it was written by the Insurance companies. This is not putting lipstick on a pig. It is killing the pig and replacing it with.....No one really knows. It's not like the new bill can be read and that the American public wants it. What the Trump supporters want is to blame Obama and The Clintons for everything. They hold all the houses of Congress, the Executive and the Judicial. Stand up and take responsibility.

 

We all know what a great POTUS George Bush was. He steered the ship for 8 years until he brought the economy to it's knees, created a failed state in Iraq and we are still in an unwinnable war in Afghanistan. You cannot grow little Americas all over the world. Attaboy George. Trump makes me miss you. No one is blaming him. He's looking good too. Slimmed down and enjoying life just like Obama.


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#225 scottrussia

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Posted 5 days ago

Is it?

 

What if we had nothing at all?

 

What if healthcare was like food?  We all need to eat.  The government provides money for a small percentage of people to buy food (note that the money is generally provided directly to the consumer - supplemented by some food delivered directly to children at school).

 

Are there enormous profits for foodmakers?  Nope.  Are there ridiculous markups for grocery stores?  Nope.  Is there a continuous stream of actual innovation and improvement in food delivery and selection?  I'd say in general yes. Is there food that is produced that only the rich or well to do can afford?  Yep - does it bother anyone?  Not really.  Is there massive fraud?  Well there is some small scale food stamp fraud - but compared to Medicare and Medicaid fraud its nothing!

 

So rather than the mess we have - why not take existing assets like the VA system and Planned Parenthood and a few others and combine them into a national health care chain (fire the existing management) run by the government for those that cannot afford health care - charge something to adults by perhaps requiring they purchase some sort of Medicare like coverage from the government.  Also fund a full time nurse for all public schools (and allow them to practice).  Provide decent and basic health care to anyone that walks through the door.

 

Then regulate supposedly "non-profit" medical institutions.  They (mostly) aren't really non-profit.  They are run like big business only instead of enriching shareholders they enrich management.  And let me be blunt.  No one in a non-profit administration (ie not full time practicing doctor) needs to earn more than 67% of what the president makes.  And if your a full time practicing doctor its 100%.  Don't like it - go start your own practice for profit.

 

Then attack all the current regulations that exist - many of them written to protect.... businesses at the expense of patients.  Force medical device producers that make anything that is used OUTSIDE the body to sell directly to consumers.  So no more hiding behind the idea of "patient safety" to force millions of people to visit a doctor or provider and pay for a "consultation (or two)" and pay stupidly marked up money for basic things - just to replace something you know is broken and needs replaced.  And by it being a mass market item now - prices will plummet.  Your allowed to rebuild a car engine in this country but supposedly its not safe for you to use an allen wrench to replace a screw on an artificial arm or leg.

 

That will also include huge reforms for malpractice suits.  Along with forcing medical boards to also actually do their job of identifying and weeding out bad doctors.  Ask your local doctor (if you still have one - how much their malpractice insurance is today).

 

Then destroy the pricing model that exists due to the insurance and hospital industry.  No more fake prices of $17,000 for a scan or $50,000 for three hours of emergency room care.  The only people that pay those prices???? Oh, the poor and uninsured (usually one and the same).  Create a regulation that only allows discounts to insurance companies based on volume and limit those to say 10% and forces prices for all services to be prominently displayed for the public to see.  Suddenly you might be able to walk into an emergency room and not have to lose your house.  Oh, and the idea that a hospital can charge medicare more for a procedure just because its a hospital?  Gone!  

 

And finally, the government should simply enact a regulation that the US government will only pay the same as the lowest price a drug or device is sold to ANY OECD member country.  So if the drug is sold to the Italian government for $37 a pill then that's the price here in the US for all government related health care.

 

Is there a lot else that would need to happen - absolutely.  Would everything work out grand the first time around?  No.  See that is what actually requires leadership.  You tell people the truth.  Health care is a complex mess and needs years of hard work to turn it into something better for citizens.  You enact changes and if you don't get the desired results after a period of time - you admit it - and then make adjustments.  

 

Lastly, the issue isn't having insurance - its creating an affordable health care system from the mess we have today.  And if the Obamacare bill was the best that congress could pass (I might point out when it was being totally run by one party), then we are toast.


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#226 queenbee1

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Posted 4 days ago

I read something today and it made me wonder. Is medical a right or not?
 
Scottrussia has a lot of good points to make, but can we turn that same cannon on the Military Industrial Complex? 650 Billion? Really?
 
In Washington, no one is answering the question. Is medical care a right or not?
 
Trump says Americans will lose healthcare with Obamacare. The opposing
side says Trumpcare or the repeal of Obamacare will result in the same. So is it a right or not?
 
All that is left is that simple question. Is healthcare a right?
I won't be upset if you think the answer is no.
 
I copied this from someone I read regularly:
 

"If the answer is no, it’s not a right, then healthcare is a privilege and we are not obligated to guarantee every person will be able to get healthcare. The privileged get it. Those of lesser fortune don’t.  Simple as that. Oh sure, we might provide some charity, some help for the non-privileged, but we are by no means under any moral obligation to do so.  If we’ve got extra money, if we’re feeling generous, sure. What the hell. But otherwise, no.

If you can afford it, you get it.

If you can’t, you don’t.

 

And you should at least be honest enough to admit that’s what you’re up to. I want to hear every politician, every candidate for office, go on the record, yes or no. And if it’s no, if you believe healthcare is a privilege of those who can afford it, then have the goddamned guts to look into the camera and say so. And if you’re voted out of office as a result, or stripped of your privilege by the mob, well, that’s just too damned bad.

 

If healthcare isn’t a right, then it’s just another line item in the budget, next to bridges and warships and farm subsidies.

And the only argument is where we draw the line between the haves and have-nots – and the best part about capitalism is that we don’t have to draw the line ourselves, the free market will do it for us. Leaving our hands clean."

 
The question remains unanswered. Yes? Or no?


#227 scottrussia

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Posted 4 days ago

That is just a political copout.

 

Is housing a right?  Is food a right?  Is the best education a right?  Is psychiatric care a right?  Are clothes a right?  Is a heated/cooled home a right?  Is a smart phone a right?  Is double chocolate ice cream a right?  Are $760,000 yearly drugs a right?  $500,000?  300,000?  Or exactly how much for nursing home care?  $100,000/year? $200,000/year? The list is endless.

 

And why mock charity?  Some of our best medical institutions were formed as charities to provide health care to the less fortunate.  I'd actually argue that is the "professionalization" of charity - both in the form of non-profits disguised as big business and government bureaucrats crowding out local charity that is an issue impacting those less well off.

 

Not to mention that many of us spend a lot of time and resources to help improve our communities.

 

You have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  As a society we try to provide everyone a good education, provide the elderly with a safety net to keep them housed, clothed, and fed at a minimum.  Provide a temporary safety net to those adults experiencing job losses, provide a host of job-training programs to further aid them.  We attempt to ensure that children are fed.  We subsidize higher education for those less fortunate (though we did a much better job of this many years ago - again before the professionalization of non-profits which includes our universities).  We "provide" a whole host of additional programs and agencies tasked with improving the lives of the less fortunate - given the numbers, one wonders if only those working for said agencies see their lives improved.

 

All this feel-good paint the other guy as a hater nonsense just ignores the complexity and difficult changes that have to be attempted to improve the health care system we have.  And a lot of other issues in the country also.  Falling to the trap of the "other guy" hates, doesn't care, is against certain people, is racist, sexist, bigoted, etc, etc just because they may have different ideas is a big part of our political problem.  

 

Government's proper role is to regulate the health care market.  IMO, it currently fails abysmally in doing so.  If we decide to have government attempt to provide basic health care open to all in society I have no issue with it - but I'm aware enough to know that unless we make large difficult changes what is promised will be a long way from what is actually delivered. 


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#228 queenbee1

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Posted 4 days ago

Cop out from what? You conflate it with every other possible need.  You mentioned the Declaration if Independence and that is not a law. It has nothing to do with the bill of rights or all the Amendments to the Constitution and if you answer is no healthcare is not a right no one is trapping you into anything. Do you personally have an opinion that healthcare is or is not a basic human right? The Constitution is a living breathing entity that can be changed as the needs of the people change. Why not just say it is a right and we'll work out the details like we have for all other government programs including defense spending in the past.

 

Oh sure, we might provide some charity, some help for the non-privileged, but we are by no means under any moral obligation to do so. That statement I copied does not mock charity only that charity has its limitations. 

 

You said you want to improve the health care system we have. Wasn't Obamacare an attempt to do just that? Single payer health care will improve it even more. There is no realistic way of reforming a heath insurance industry through regulation. They have a huge lobby and Congress will not pass regulations that will bite the hand that feeds them. 

 

So don't confuse a simple question with a blame game. I don't blame someone if they think it is not a right. I just want them to say it on the record that healthcare is based on the ability to pay and it is not a right. Regulations will not change that. Under what laws does it state that "the Government's proper role is to regulate the health care market?" 



#229 scottrussia

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Posted 4 days ago

There is no need for a reply.

 

It is just an attempt to demonize.  I won't waste my time or effort.


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#230 queenbee1

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Posted 4 days ago

"It is just an attempt to demonize." Demonize who?

 

Maybe all is lost in America when it comes to healthcare discussions. We get what we get. It's just a dog eat dog world. I've got mine (and I do) so now you get yours. Why should I pay any more taxes to allow people who made bad choices access to anything for free? I am being dead serious and not sarcastic. Let's go back to the way it was in 1950's. No one should expect any entitlements and we should let the market dictate the terms. They can regulate themselves just like coal and oil do. The EPA is another bloated government agency we don't need.

 

There will be no new taxes we need to phase out Social Security and Medicare. Let's just repeal Obamacare and replace it with nothing. Problem solved. 

 

If we don't want to believe in Global Climate change I am okay with that too. If we want more coal jobs well fine let's have more coal jobs. Screw the climate as the creator will take care of it.

 

We also need to stop same sex marriages and close all options for terminating pregnancy. Force everyone to carry to term and if they get a back alley abortion, throw them in jail for the rest of their lives. 



#231 Fairway

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Posted 3 days ago

591e568fc6fd9.image.jpg

 

When Al Green realizes he is helping Conservatives.

 

http://www.huffingto...4b095bd896a11db

 

^^ Even though this is horribly slanted, it does get the point across.


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#232 Fairway

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Posted 3 days ago

This says it all:  Asked why details of the proposed healthcare bill were not being made public, a senate staffer replied "We're not stupid."

 

"We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it..." ~then-Speaker Nancy Pelosi, March 9, 2010.

Short memory? A lot of deception was involved in getting the "Affordable" Care Act pushed through.

I don't like the current efforts though. It is essentially trying to polish the Obamacare turd.
 

I Agree Walhall, the current bill doesn't do enough, it paints over obamacare.

 

Nancy Pelosi is so funny. Some dumb things she's said (since everyone loves to hear dumb things Trump says, you ought to like this too):

"It is almost a false argument to say we have a spending problem." February 10, 2013

"Every month that we do not have an economic recovery package, 500 million Americans lose their jobs." January 18, 2009

"Employers cutting hours is a good thing. It then gives that person time to pursue their dream and passions." September 22, 2013

"I believe in natural gas as a clean, cheap alternative to fossil fuels. It's cheap, abundant, and clean compared to fossil fuels." August 24, 2008

(Natural gas is a fossil fuel)


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#233 queenbee1

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Posted 3 days ago

Hey Fairway here is some historical trivia for you to look up. Who pushed through Obamacare? Who wrote it and who voted for it? I don't know, but you were still a child at the time and honestly I was too busy to care. I am not trying to be sarcastic. I honestly want to know. I just don't want to look it up.



#234 Lonello

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Posted 3 days ago

That was The Hillary, wasn't it? Or the FLOTUS as she calls herself.

 

She was the one with this agenda when Bill was President, but she lost the battle. Her party had to wait for Obama to finally implement it?

 

Anyway, you're right, Queenbee, that we have this medicare system in Europe forever now... I think nobody can imagine living without. But even here there's a prize for a human. If the treatment is too expensive, you won't get it. Maybe that line is drawn sooner in the US if you do not have the best of insurances though?! And what happened before... if you had no insurance but was diagnosed with a lethal condition when not treated, the doctors would simply give up at the spot? Only do first aid or something?


Lo

#235 queenbee1

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Posted 3 days ago

Lo I don't know what the price for a human being is in the US, but look at the anti-abortion movement. They want to jail the mother and kill the doctor. There are huge charity hospitals like the Shriner's Burn facility and Winnie Palmer's Hospital for women and children and of course St Jude's Hospital. I am sure that just about all Americans who can pay do so and in the end their price includes all those who cannot. What I would like is to see Euthanasia a right for the elderly who have alzheimer's and dementia. I go nearly every night to see my girlfriend and it breaks my heart. Watch a movie called "Just Alice" and it will pull your heart strings and they made it almost seem sterile.

 

I see them crying hysterically, confused and in pain. The worst is those who throw themselves on the floor and cry out "help me, please help me." She is not there yet, but the toll of losing what made her special is like a slow painful death for both of us and I am not alone. There are millions of families grappling with this horrific disease. At the end stage I couldn't even visit my father as what made him special was already gone. 



#236 Fairway

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Posted 2 days ago

Lo I don't know what the price for a human being is in the US, but look at the anti-abortion movement. They want to jail the mother and kill the doctor. There are huge charity hospitals like the Shriner's Burn facility and Winnie Palmer's Hospital for women and children and of course St Jude's Hospital. I am sure that just about all Americans who can pay do so and in the end their price includes all those who cannot. What I would like is to see Euthanasia a right for the elderly who have alzheimer's and dementia. I go nearly every night to see my girlfriend and it breaks my heart. Watch a movie called "Just Alice" and it will pull your heart strings and they made it almost seem sterile.

 

I see them crying hysterically, confused and in pain. The worst is those who throw themselves on the floor and cry out "help me, please help me." She is not there yet, but the toll of losing what made her special is like a slow painful death for both of us and I am not alone. There are millions of families grappling with this horrific disease. At the end stage I couldn't even visit my father as what made him special was already gone. 

Kill the doctor? The doctor deserves jail time for murder, but of course only after the Roe v Wade reversal (Hopefully!!)


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#237 queenbee1

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Posted 2 days ago

Kill the doctor? The doctor deserves jail time for murder, but of course only after the Roe v Wade reversal (Hopefully!!)

Fairway I was referring to those God fearing Christians who walk into women's clinics and take justice into their own hands by killing the doctor. I also remember the County Clerk in Kentucky? The one who was lauded as a hero for refusing to do her job by signing marriage licenses for same sex couples. I think we have evolved past that way of thinking. Most of us don't remember her name and I am not sure of what state she worked in.

 

I think Gay people have suffered enough over the centuries. We don't want to become like ISIS tossing them off buildings.

 

Americans have every right to be anti-abortion and practice abstinence, but I still don't understand why they want the state to outlaw a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy in a safe environment.

I don't condone the behavior. Is simply don't want them to go back to having unsafe health condition or abortions that endanger the life of the woman who feels this is her only option. Believing that children will not have sex, fathers won't rape their kids and for all men to not abuse women sexually resulting in a pregnancy is simply naive. 



#238 Fairway

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Posted 2 days ago

Fairway I was referring to those God fearing Christians who walk into women's clinics and take justice into their own hands by killing the doctor. I also remember the County Clerk in Kentucky? The one who was lauded as a hero for refusing to do her job by signing marriage licenses for same sex couples. I think we have evolved past that way of thinking. Most of us don't remember her name and I am not sure of what state she worked in.

 

I think Gay people have suffered enough over the centuries. We don't want to become like ISIS tossing them off buildings.

 

Americans have every right to be anti-abortion and practice abstinence, but I still don't understand why they want to the state to outlaw a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy in a safe environment.

I don't condone the behavior. Is simply don't want to go back to back alley abortions that endanger the life of the woman who feels this is her only option. Believing that children will not have sex, fathers won't rape their kids and for all men to not abuse women sexually resulting in a pregnancy is simply naive. 

If murder is morally wrong (who determines that anyway??) then states not only have the right to but are obliged to outlaw abortion.


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#239 queenbee1

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Posted 2 days ago

If murder is morally wrong (who determines that anyway??) then states not only have the right to but are obliged to outlaw abortion.

Morality if fluid. At one time in the US history it was moral to own slaves.

Kill the doctor? The doctor deserves jail time for murder, but of course only after the Roe v Wade reversal (Hopefully!!)

As long as Roe V Wade is the law the doctor or the patient deserve no punishment.

 

Once again we have strayed off topic and as this was supposed to be an analysis of Trump and not an analysis of Obamacare or unwanted pregnancy.

 

I don't know what the value of a life is, but apparently we feel compelled to place a value on life by enacting healthcare laws or failing to do so. Healthcare reform will meet with far more resistance than single payer, but what if government was taken out of the equation. Trump ran on repealing Obamacare and he can't seem to get that done without some sort of replacement. Any replacement will once again be government interference with the marketplace so I think government cannot fix a problem that is systemic. Repeal it and don't replace it. I am of the opinion that the government cannot fix healthcare.

 

I think the majority believe that Medicaid and Medicare are okay as long as they can opt out of it. The problem is no one can see the future and almost everyone cannot afford catastrophic care or skilled nursing at the end of life. I don't think there is a government answer for healthcare, but we are pretty much stuck with something for the elderly and the poor.



#240 Lonello

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Posted 2 days ago

What I would like is to see Euthanasia a right for the elderly who have alzheimer's and dementia.

It's kinda funny you would mention this, Queenbee. Just like the UK my country is in the works of making a coalition to form a government after the elections. In the first round it was stopped on topic of the refugee crisis. This next round actually is about euthanasia!

 

There's one party who strongly feels the way you do... it's compared with a Macron-like party (or Trudeau if you will). On the opposite are the evangelicals which leader was actually on last night's talkshow over here. They feel strongly against it so there seems to unravel an impasse on just this theme of euthanasia.

 

What's likely is that the very much beat up socialists get the last turn, if they do not reach a compromize in round two. What will happen to euthanasia then depends on the senate which is rightwing over here so I don't see your motion pass very fast, Queenbee, although we do have something in place already which is for people who suffer unbearingly. Not sure if that would go for people with dementia as they have no way to express their wishes anymore...


Lo




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