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Are the top five the best five?


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#1 --Wogomite--

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Posted 16 March 2016 - 05:31 PM

 

Witherguy12, on 24 May 2016 - 6:32 PM, said:snapback.png

I think everyone generally is good. :) (At least most people I play) (The "losers" I'm talking about are none of you people). :)

 

I am sure many people appreciate your comment, I also agree with your point that most are generally good. I will have to say though that there seems to be a handful of players that consistently beat even "really good" players. A top and rare group of people that have found something not many have. Whether it just be insane patience, a 30 move advance superior spacial awareness, risk reward being maintained with constant maximum pressure, a combination of the bunch and more, some have learned to do it almost never deviating from the next best move game after game after game. I am not saying their skill level is mystical or unlearn-able to the average mind or that "really good" players can't play competitively with them. What I am saying, is that phenomenal consistency only resides with a handful of people. Just as Michael Jordan was to the "NBA", Babe Ruth was to the MLB, Messi is for la "League", and Barry Sanders was to the "NFL", I believe we have a rare amount of players just as good in the realm of Stratego.

 

I ultimately wanted peoples opinion whether Stratego.coms ELO have captured these players accurately? Does "Nick, Fleur, and Napoleons Clean Ranking" capture this more accurately? Are Tournament Ranking Points proof in the pudding or would some look at live tournaments and weigh in their opinions with those? Is it a combination of all of them all or none outright? 

 

No one voted in the "superstars" that I mentioned above. They flat out proved themselves! Therefor in what way can the strongest proof of these Stratego Champions also be observed?

 

                                                I have tried to keep an updated current top five of as many sources as I have access to

 

         

                                    Stratego.com ELO

1. Hielco--------------1265

2. Nortrom---------- 1106

3. Constrictor-------1083

4. Conqueror-Gr---1083

5. Sohal---------------1082

 

                                 Nick, Fleur, and Napoleon's Clean Ranking

 

1. Hielco-----------------1264

2. Nortrom--------------1106

3. Constrictor----------1083

4. Sohal------------------1082

5. Overlord_98---------1063

 

 

                                             (TRP) Masters Results 2015

 

1. Hielco-------46 (NL)

2. Playa1-------46 (NL)

3. Nortrom-----45 (NL)

4. Enigma------41 (NASF)

5. Spyros77---34 (GR)

 

 

                                      (WCO) 1st World online Championship 2015

 

1. Morx---------------52 (NL)

2. Nortrom----------51 (NL)

3. Hielco-------------49 (NL)

4. SEKERTZISS---45 (GR)

5. Garulfo-----------45 (GR)

 

Spring Tournament 2016

 

Champion: Nortrom (NL) 
Runner up: Hielco (NL)
Third Place: Overlord_98 (GR)
Fourth Place: MrBrainiac (NASF)
Tied 5th/6th: Aris1970 (GR)-Manning2Cruz (NASF)

 

 

Champions League 2016

 

Champion: Hielco (NL)

Runner up: Nortrom (NL)

Third Place: THEE_ASSASSIN (NASF)

Fourth Place: KARAISKAKIS (GR)

Fifth Place (Tied): Sevenseas (GB)

                           LAZZLO

                           HiImNew (NASF)

 

 

Winter Tournament 2016

 

Champion: Playa1 (NL)

Runner up: Grizzlybaer (GR)

Third Place: gpet0 (GR)

Fourth Place: Hielco (NL)

Fifth Place: DR_ELL SuPREME (GR)

 

 

(TRP) Masters Results 2016

 

Champion: Nortrom (NL)

Runner Up: Hielco (NL)

Third Place: Playa1 (NL)

Fourth Place: Overlord_98 (GR)

Fifth Place: mrbrainiac (NASF)

 

 

   (WCO) 2nd World online Championship 2016

 

Champion: Gkaros---52 (GR)

Runner Up: Hello124--50 (NL)

Third Place: Hielco-----47 (NL)

Fourth Place: Nortrom--46 (NL)

      Fifth Place: Wogomite--45 (NASF)

 

 

 

 

                                                                       Metaforge

 

 

                  2010                           2012                                              2013

 

1. lightwing (Nortrom)--20901           1. Hielco--------------------11092        1. lightwing (Nortrom)--6302

2. Hielco--------------------13630           2. Sohal---------------------8475          2. Hielco--------------------6282

3. NE-Pats010304---------8757            3. lightwing (Nortrom)-8174          3. Sohal--------------------5641

4. Sohal---------------------8074              4. BlasdeLezo------------6614          4. Gkaros------------------2439

5. Sadistic----------------- 7757              5. Gkaros------------------4925          5. BladesdeLezo--------2417

 

                                                          

                                                            Kleier

 

                             Ranking                                                                                     Rating     

 

                     1. Morx                                                           1. Morx

                     2. Nortrom                                                      2. Nortrom

                     3. Hielco                                                         3. Hielco

                     4. SEKERTZISS                                              4. Manning2Cruz

                     5. Losermaker                                               5. SEKERTZISS

 

                                                                          GRAVON

    

                              2016                                            2015                             

 

                          1. freddykreuger  (heilco)-1860                                  1. freddykreuger (heilco)--- 1856

                          2. sohal--------------------------1752                                  2. sohal--------------------------- 1726

                          3. losermaker-----------------1729                                  3. fonias---------------------------1689

                          4. fonias - (gkaros)-----------1694                                 4. garulfo--------------------------1648

                          5. flieger - (flieger_olaf)-----1648                                5. psychonaut--------------------1644

 

                              2014                                             2013                             

 

                          1. sohal-------------------1852                                           1. razoa(sohal)--1833

                          2. zach21(m2c)--------1747                                           2. acerimmer----1749

                          3. sadistic---------------1702                                           3. nochance------1739

                          4. fonias-----------------1700                                           4. fonias------------1706

                          5. psychonaut---------1694                                           5. zach21(m2c)- 1696                        

I will update popular alternate names into this list if these people go by anything more known to stratego.com users.

 

 

 


 

 

 

 

                                  

       


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#2 maxroelofs

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Posted 16 March 2016 - 05:46 PM

3 of the best 5 players are there.


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#3 Moriarty

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Posted 16 March 2016 - 05:50 PM

I agree with maxroelofs. 2 of the spots are debatable. If you could count M2C in and some of the inactive players in it would be better. Enigma, Constrictor, and Sadistic are around equal in skill. (You can see records on Gravon)


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#4 iron_maiden

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 12:19 AM

There are players at Gravon and Meta or at least there have been down the years who are superior to the likes of Sadistic and Enigma.

#5 --Wogomite--

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 02:02 AM

There are players at Gravon and Meta or at least there have been down the years who are superior to the likes of Sadistic and Enigma.

I would have to say that what you say is true and actually quite common knowledge. I think many people would not put the two of them in the top five even among users right here at stratego.com. This is a topic pulling out the deepest reasons why the best five players should not be placed in a box with elo or trp being what places them on a pedestal. I want to hear why the minds of the top five are justified as the best by skill level....for example I have played the best and many top players and have won without lotto many times, I have also lost without lotto many times. I would have to say out of all of my games played Sohal and Manning2Cruz are two players that come to mind for consistency. Anytime I play them I see minimal mistakes if any. They are strong attackers and don't rely on a defense to win them games but neither do they lotto in "hopes" of a good outcome when they attack. It is very methodical and information driven assault. I appreciate players like that.



#6 texaspete09

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 02:06 AM

My 5:

 

Nortrom

Playa1

Hielco

Sohal

Manning2Cruz


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#7 Moriarty

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:48 AM

There are players at Gravon and Meta or at least there have been down the years who are superior to the likes of Sadistic and Enigma.

I've been reading Sadi's posts on the gravon forum. You gotta admit he is epic


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#8 Astros 17

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 04:50 AM

I've been reading Sadi's posts on the gravon forum. You gotta admit he is epic


He has some amusing posts but he is a nasty person.


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#9 QueenofHearts

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 06:03 AM

What separates the top players from the others? Everything I am about to say is just an opinion and IMO it is confidence. You have 100 squares. The movements are finite, but bluffing and misdirection seem to put top players in a class above all others. That is both reputation and confidence. I can match up with decent players, but when I play platinum I lose confidence. I don't have the experience. I become overly defensive and they can see patterns my movement, they time delays between moves as well. They move let themselves get trapped. They have awesome intuition and many, many hours of playing experience at the top level, I have to tip my hat to all players who reach these levels of play. What do you think makes the difference between a lower platinum player and the elite ones?


Queenbee


#10 Moriarty

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 06:12 AM

You have 100 squares.


92 1x1 squares ^_^
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#11 iron_maiden

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 10:47 PM

Something else I think helps - the ability or desire to play long game after long game. I prefer to play weaker opponents not because I'm more likely to win (the drop in points is more severe for a loss so you can't just rely on that anyway) but because I don't especially enjoy the long games. Against top players, it nearly always is a long game (30+ mins) if you're in there competing.

When I do play a top player its because I've checked to ensure I have the time, I'm not going to get interrupted and that I feel mentally fresh enough - I gear up for a long hard game and 90% of the time that's what you get. I've beaten the top players, including Heilco but its always tough and you can often come away empty handed. That takes mental stamina and resilience.

From Gravon I would agree Playa1 is excellent - down the years there are players such as DC.Annies (who I think has won the board game world championship before) Wussy and AceRimmer (who spent years in 1st place until Hielco and Sohal arrived). At Meta you had LightWing who is highly acclaimed (but banned for life from Gravon I think, unsure why). Gentleben was another, but I think he's a player here and not cracking thetop 10 or anything so perhaps he isn't quite at the very top level.

Another measure is how these players fare in other forms of stratego. The quick game here isn't ranked sadly but gravon has rankings for barrage, duell (which is the quick game) and Ultimate Lightning. AceRimmer seems to be excellent across the board. Each game requires slightly different skils and play making to win at, but if you are elite at everything then you have to be classed very highly on the all time list for Stratego itself, rather than what we're discussing which is the normal classic game of 40 pieces. I know some people who are great at this but can't play the mini games to save their lives, so someone who can get to 1st place in multiple disciplines has to be highly regarded.

Edited by iron_maiden, 17 March 2016 - 10:50 PM.

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#12 Fairway

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 11:31 PM

He has some amusing post but he is a nasty person.

Bingo.

 

p.s. your signature is funny. I like it.


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#13 Enigma

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 12:42 AM

What separates the top players from the others? Everything I am about to say is just an opinion and IMO it is confidence. You have 100 squares. The movements are finite, but bluffing and misdirection seem to put top players in a class above all others. That is both reputation and confidence. I can match up with decent players, but when I play platinum I lose confidence. I don't have the experience. I become overly defensive and they can see patterns my movement, they time delays between moves as well. They move let themselves get trapped. They have awesome intuition and many, many hours of playing experience at the top level, I have to tip my hat to all players who reach these levels of play. What do you think makes the difference between a lower platinum player and the elite ones?

 

There a lot of key elements that separate out the truly elite players (win pct > 85%) from everyone else, but I think the most important factor is their intuition.  They simply think the game better than anyone else.  They can figure out your pieces before they are seen.  When they see the identity of 1 piece, they can figure out what the other pieces are around that one very quickly.  They know when and where to lotto, almost never hitting bombs.  They know what to do in any game situation and their processing speed is extremely fast.  They can sense where your flag is based on where your pieces were identified.  Keep in mind that these players all have many years of experience and probably well over 10,000 games played.

 

Other things you will notice among them:

 

-Strong on both attack and defense

-No mistakes (never any unnecessary risks, takes risks at the appropriate time)

-Never forgetting pieces that were seen

-Never letting pieces get trapped and never giving away a piece for free (all information acquired is later used to capture a piece)

-Never letting you get to their flag

-Never hitting bombs (except with miners)

-Strong setups

-Consistency - almost never losing to weak opponents

-Effective against any style of play (shuffler, lotto, etc.)

-They will capitalize on any mistake you make - your game has to be perfect to win, and usually also need to get a bit lucky


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#14 --Wogomite--

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 02:00 AM

From Gravon I would agree Playa1 is excellent -  At Meta you had LightWing who is highly acclaimed. Gentleben was another, but I think he's a player here and not cracking thetop 10 or anything so perhaps he isn't quite at the very top level.

LightWing is Nortrom and Gentleben is Constrictor. Both in the top five here at stratego.com

 

And I will add that the top three ranked players makes me smile. I think it is a very appropriate top three.


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#15 GaryLShelton

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:35 AM

Something else I think helps - the ability or desire to play long game after long game. I prefer to play weaker opponents not because I'm more likely to win (the drop in points is more severe for a loss so you can't just rely on that anyway) but because I don't especially enjoy the long games. Against top players, it nearly always is a long game (30+ mins) if you're in there competing.

When I do play a top player its because I've checked to ensure I have the time, I'm not going to get interrupted and that I feel mentally fresh enough - I gear up for a long hard game and 90% of the time that's what you get. I've beaten the top players, including Heilco but its always tough and you can often come away empty handed. That takes mental stamina and resilience.

 

Tonight as I write this I'm at 626 and you're at 627, iron_maiden.  We are almost dead even, except for the one little, minorly important tidbit of fact that you mention about beating Hielco one time.  That's a nice feather in your cap, iron_maiden!  :)

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment about playing higher players.  I am hopeful many times of getting a lower player because I just don't think I have the stamina to play.  But you don't always get that choice here.  I just hope it cycles an extra time or two during its search because I know that means it's going to be someone lower...usually.  And I just go, "ah...an easy game..."  Of course, it never pays to get too cocky, but sometimes it is just nice to know you won't have to sweat it too much.  I totally agree that that is nice at times.  The higher games always take a long time for me also, as you say, though I often play them an hour long or better.  



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#16 Moriarty

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:42 AM

Gentleben was another, but I think he's a player here and not cracking thetop 10 or anything so perhaps he isn't quite at the very top level.

 

Gentleben is Constrictor :)

5th I think


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#17 Moriarty

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:43 AM

He has some amusing post but he is a nasty person.

He is not a nasty person to his fans ;)

 

Ditto on that Fairway. I like your siggy


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#18 GaryLShelton

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:53 AM

astros'  old signature was much wittier and cooler with the 60% thing...what was that again?



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#19 Astros 17

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 04:08 AM

He is not a nasty person to his fans ;)

 

Ditto on that Fairway. I like your siggy.

There are many types of people who talk trash on this site. Some will do so when they lose or get an unexpected win, others will say vulgar things to everyone just to annoy people and finally some people are nasty on a more complex level with the intention to upset and be hurtful of others because they enjoy it. Sadistic falls into the final category. His forums posts are amsuing but the things he said to players privately are appalling.

 

astros'  old signature was much wittier and cooler with the 60% thing...what was that again?

https://www.youtube....h?v=pjvQFtlNQ-M


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#20 Lonello

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 10:18 AM

If we compare with Gravon, best not to forget Losermaker (up there on Gravon + the last tourneywinner over here).


Lo




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