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Recent Racial Tensions


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#1 Fairway

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Posted 14 April 2020 - 05:04 PM

Posts in the 'jokes' thread that pertained to this discussion have been moved here.

 

 

 

(edit) Note: Nortrom originally posted the following picture in the 'jokes' thread:

 

https://imgur.com/a/RvvqFsB

 

That picture started a discussion pertaining to the recent racial tension issues, which you can see below.

 

As that discussion did not belong in the 'jokes' thread, I moved that post and all subsequent pertaining comments on the matter to this new thread.

 

Nortrom took exception to being named as the 'creator' of this thread, so I added a post of mine with this explanation so that it would show that I was the creator. 

 

Nortrom then changed the goalposts, saying that he did not wish to have any posts of his associated with this topic, which he did not care to engage in or be associated with. This request did not make any sense, beacuse it was Nortrom's own action of posting the picture that began this discussion in the first place.

 

Nortrom then edited his subsequent posts to remove the picture.


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#2 TheOptician

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 11:28 AM

This matter is not a joke and these points are not contradictory.

The point of the T-shirt is that racism is not ok.

The point of the sign is that staying silent ABOUT racism is not ok.
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#3 Fairway

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 12:31 PM

The slogan 'silence is violence' is a joke enough :D


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#4 TheOptician

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 01:05 PM

No it isn’t.

The point is that being silent against racism is to be complicit in racism. And it is this silence and complicity that contributes and ultimately enables racism to prevail.
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#5 tobermoryx

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 07:08 PM

Silence and complicity are not violent though.



#6 TheOptician

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 07:57 PM

Ok so maybe the sign should read Silence leads to violence. It’s a semantic point - not a great one imo.

#7 Fairway

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 09:55 PM

You know what's violent? Some cops wrongly abusing and killing suspect(s). Some people looting stores and shops to display their displeasure.

 

Silence isn't violent.


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#8 TheOptician

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 10:20 PM

I am not claiming that the word silence means the same as violence, obviously. 

 

I think you understand that - in certain situations - violence can be a consequence of silence.

 

p.s. looting ain't violence 



#9 Fairway

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 11:36 PM

p.s. looting ain't violence 

It absolutely is. Using these (hopefully peaceful) riots as an excuse to break store windows, go in, and steal whatever you want? That's sure as hell violence. There are riots in my city and there are shops and stores in my city that are broken into and looted during these riots. And the stores aren't always empty either, when they're looted. So that means the owner/workers are somewhere in the back cowering in fear while these looters take what they please.

 

That's violence, no doubt about it.


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#10 TheOptician

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 12:04 AM

I fail to understand why people can be so offended by rioting yet so unoffended by police brutality or the racism of society.

Ask yourself why one so offends you so much and the other leaves you ambivalent - and you might understand the meaning of the sign to which you take such an objection.
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#11 KnightofPepsi

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 02:20 AM

It is quite possible to be “offended” by both.
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#12 Dobby125

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 02:43 AM

14b91e85d313ca1ab5ad1c150df0f44a76d00f39


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#13 Losermaker

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 04:02 AM

No it isn’t.

The point is that being silent against racism is to be complicit in racism. And it is this silence and complicity that contributes and ultimately enables racism to prevail.

I would argue against this. As this is a somewhat controversial topic, please take what I say with a grain of salt. I think that the whole 'need' for active stuff against racism is partially fueling the fire further. Perhaps my experience is different in Australia to other countries, but over here they carry on about "the land always was and always will be Aboriginal land", "the need for apology to the Aboriginal people" and so on. Yes, racism does exist and it is an issue that some people feel the need to deal with through vocalization - but does it really help?
 
The whole point of such acts of speaking out against racism is to fight for equality and treatments of both white or black (or different cultures etc) the same way. At the same time though, I believe that these acts in a round about way separate the two races further and remind everyone of any separation that exists. Why can't people just get over it all? I have plenty of friends who are Aboriginal, we never once have to even think that the other is any different, they are a person and it just goes without saying. Neither of us feels the need to apologize or even bring it up cause it doesn't mean anything to us. We are simply mates and there is no need to make it stupid and talk as though there is a division between us when there isn't. The stupidity of not being silent and going through the streets as a white person claiming that "the land was and always will be Aboriginal land" is hypocritical when you live there and won't get off the land.
Yes, I think that racism is bad and it exists, but I do not think that not saying anything about it leads to violence/more racism. I think that my actions and how I treat people during my life speak against racism more so than if I go out and do some fake walk holding up a hypocritical sign about the land and everything being theirs and the need to apologize while I live on it and have nothing to apologize for. 
In short, I think that being vocal about an issue may actually help to keep the issue (separation) alive.


#14 TemplateRex

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 08:01 AM

Why can't people just get over it all? 

 

If you are talking about white people settling in Australia centuries ago, sure, people should get over it. Slavery also ended over 150 years ago. But racism didn't, and neither did government instituted racism, neither in the US, Australia or the Netherlands. 

 

WW2 ended in 1945, yet the few Jews that survived the Holocaust and came back to the Netherlands found themselves disowned from their real estate and didn't receive any compensation. Up until 50 years ago children born out of wedlock were forcibly removed from their teenage mothers and placed in orphanages or foster care. I think similar things were done to Aboriginal children in Australia. And civilized Sweden used to sterilize alcoholic or other "unfit" women well into the 70s. Married women were fired from government jobs into the 70s in the Netherlands as well. Gay marriage has only been recently been accepted in most Western countries, but obstacles to adoption, pension security etc. are still not completely gone.

 

People just don't get over such injustices. At least not when the generations who suffered them are still with us. It's good that the younger generations like you and your mates lead normal integrated lives. But I wouldn't be dismissive of older people's legitimate griefs. And they shouldn't just shut up. And as the endless stream of unprovoked American police abuse shows, things are still very different for young people of color in the US right now.


Edited by TemplateRex, 09 June 2020 - 08:03 AM.

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#15 Losermaker

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 08:17 AM

I agree that the injustice done to people because of colour or race is not a good thing, but that is not what I am talking about when I say "get over it all". I mean stop categorizing people based of skin colour like the recent "Black lives matter" thing. Such statements in the recent context suggest that black people are more vulnerable to mistreatment and miss the bigger picture. All lives matter. If you do bad things, committing crimes and doing terrible things, you run the risk of it coming back to you, regardless of skin colour or race. Why then protest that black lives matter when the exact same thing could (and does) happen to white people? the issue (IMO) isn't one of police racism, but human life. I invite you to take a look at this (if you haven't already) which pretty much sums it up for me.

https://www.facebook...73957870461345/

If you wish to discuss it further, I suggest we take it outside of jokes and into PM's :D.


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#16 TheOptician

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 09:35 AM

All lives can only matter once Black lives matter.

Read not that only black lives matter but that Black lives matter ‘too’.

Society currently doesn’t have racial equality - this is the point.
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#17 TheOptician

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 09:55 AM

It is quite possible to be “offended” by both.


You can tell by that person’s reactions how ‘offended’ someone is by each of these. When the very mention of looting sends you into a spin - yet a sign condemning racism causes you to argue semantics - you reveal which side means something to you.
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#18 KissMyCookie

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 10:14 AM

Let's focus upon the U.S.A. for just the moment. The fundamental misunderstanding of the slogan, "Black Lives Matter" is that those who object to this statement, somehow feel these protestors are not taking into account all lives because they have focused upon "black lives"–this is categorically false. As it stands now with the level of systemic discrimination predicated upon racist views, it is very clear that just about every other ethnicity in America has some level of tolerance given it (albeit not nearly enough) except the African American community. There is racism running rampant against all non-white ethnicities in America, not to mention religious prejudices, which are globally widespread. 

 

What the people supporting the "Black Lives Matter" movement are saying is this:

 

White caucasian communities are seen as people–their lives have value;

Hispanic communities are seen as people–their lives have value;

Asian communities are seen as people–their lives have value;

Middle Eastern communities are seen as people–their lives have value;

Indian and Pakistani communities are seen as people–their lives have value;

 

We are African Americans, and we are people, too. Our lives matter, too.

 

 

Yes, I think that racism is bad and it exists,

*but I do not think that not saying anything about it leads to violence/more racism.

(Your statement uses a double negative–here is your meaning without them...)

*I do think that saying anything about it leads to violence/more racism. 

 

This above statement is entirely incorrect. It is precisely what TheOptician has pointed out, and is an indisputable fact–"...being silent against racism is to be complicit in racism.

 

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”

–John Stuart Mill


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#19 Don_Homer

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 01:28 PM

This is an interesting discussion and good to hold. I hope an MT member can put it in a separate topic about black rights. I think this is broad enough to have a discussion about.

 

In my opinion a lot of racism is unconscious, this is a big part of the problem I think.


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#20 TheOptician

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Posted 09 June 2020 - 03:09 PM

Important topic Nortrom, thanks for creating.
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