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Questions and Discussions Thread for MT Reports (2020)


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#41 GaryLShelton

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 04:08 PM

 
Will our current MT panel afford community members an open mind and an open channel to discuss potential issues about rules (wording, composition, execution), publicly or in PM, and can this community be assured that our voice is on par with the MT's voice? In other words, can we hope to avoid the nonsense attitude of, "We don't air our dirty laundry in public" rubbish?! That kind of attitude is what allows a community's simmering frustrations to explode.

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KMC, this is tiresome. The current MT will do what it will, but no group designated to do a job, even one that is elected, should have its deliberations open to the public. If said group is going to be a fully open book, as you are apparently asking, then why have the group at all? Why not just eliminate the Moderator Chat area and have the full public vote on every case?

If any group is to do the job it is chartered for, that group must have private discussions. This privacy insures more honest internal debates which, in turn, engender better decisions by that group.

Yes, if the group is not producing at least adequate results, if it is ineffectual, or even dysfunctional in doing what it was meant to do, then a change is in order. And with the upcoming system of elections, those changes will be regular and dependable. Just do not expect that group, or any other MT, to hold its court openly with the peanut gallery listening in to the debates and vendors selling popcorn.
__________

As for the draw refusal standard of ten minutes, it is true that a draw refusal can be manufactured, and in some cases like the one you relate, that can be less than ideal. My hat is off for a player who honestly declines to accept a draw if he feels it is undeserved under a fixed rule. That is admirable. However, as the offense of draw refusal was deemed early on to be the single most heinous violation that could be committed, the description of it and punishment for it, were all outlined long ago in the very first rules. Anyone who wants to can take benefit of it.

If the ten minute standard does not suit you, I ask you where would you have the line of draw refusal drawn? How would you draw it differently?
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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/
Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931

#42 Edmond Dantes 1844

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 04:27 PM

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KMC, this is tiresome. The current MT will do what it will, but no group designated to do a job, even one that is elected, should have its deliberations open to the public. If said group is going to be a fully open book, as you are apparently asking, then why have the group at all? Why not just eliminate the Moderator Chat area and have the full public vote on every case?

If any group is to do the job it is chartered for, that group must have private discussions. This privacy insures more honest internal debates which, in turn, engender better decisions by that group.

Yes, if the group is not producing at least adequate results, if it is ineffectual, or even dysfunctional in doing what it was meant to do, then a change is in order. And with the upcoming system of elections, those changes will be regular and dependable. Just do not expect that group, or any other MT, to hold its court openly with the peanut gallery listening in to the debates and vendors selling popcorn.
__________

As for the draw refusal standard of ten minutes, it is true that a draw refusal can be manufactured, and in some cases like the one you relate, that can be less than ideal. My hat is off for a player who honestly declines to accept a draw if he feels it is undeserved under a fixed rule. That is admirable. However, as the offense of draw refusal was deemed early on to be the single most heinous violation that could be committed, the description of it and punishment for it, were all outlined long ago in the very first rules. Anyone who wants to can take benefit of it.

If the ten minute standard does not suit you, I ask you where would you have the line of draw refusal drawn? How would you draw it differently?

 

I wasn't talking to you Gary, but if you do care to discuss something with me feel free to send me a PM.



#43 GaryLShelton

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 06:20 PM

I wasn't talking to you Gary, but if you do care to discuss something with me feel free to send me a PM.

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You can call a rose any other name, it is still a rose. Of course, you were talking to/about me. That goes without saying. That you have opened up a pubic conversation on the matter that you have, it does not follow that a pm is what I would send in response. Tit for tat is what you get in life. You have decried the draw refusal rules publicly and I have simply, and publicly, asked you what you would do to change them. Don't open the can of peas unless you are going to eat them.

Edited by GaryLShelton, 06 January 2020 - 06:24 PM.

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/
Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931

#44 Edmond Dantes 1844

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 07:42 PM

 Of course, you were talking to/about me.

 

No, Gary, I was not talking to you as I prefer to ignore you, but I was talking about things said. That is all.



#45 tobermoryx

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 08:22 PM

 

 

 

 

And what further convinced my ruling for not guilty was the fact that it is entirely logical to assume that it would take a silver player 10 minutes to 1) trap one of nonobadork's peices and 2) advance the miner to a potentially winning position in opponent's territory.

 

 

This is not good reasoning to bring in the different level of players.

 

The rules must be the same for all. I have draw refusal evidence against a player rated about 230. I gave him 10 minutes, he didn't do anything, so I told him I'd be reporting him and resigned. But I never got around to/couldn't be bothered to bring the case, and I shan't now as it is not fair to punish people for things that could have been reported 6 weeks before.

 

But might my case have been turned down as he 'only' had 10 minutes and was rated 230? Should I have given him 15 minutes maybe ? Also I had an actual draw with a player rated 105 the other week. The player offered the tie before I did, so was not any sort of troll. But if they had refused offers how much time might that have been worth ? 30 minutes ?

 

The MT should not be thinking about 'Silver players' etc, it is not relevant. If it is a consideration there should be some guidelines on how much leeway lower players are going to get. 

 

 

In this nonobadork case the opponent seemed to have plenty of time. There were 958 moves, probably at least 400 of them in the 10 minutes shown by the screenshots. Can nonobadork make it last that long by chasing/stalling ? Seems improbable to me.

 



#46 Fairway

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 08:23 PM

You're focusing very much on the fact that I said silver player. That wasn't the point I was trying to stress. How about this:

 

it is entirely logical to assume that it would take any player 10 minutes to 1) trap one of nonobadork's peices and 2) advance the miner to a potentially winning position in opponent's territory.

 

Either way, a whole lot of progress was made during the 10 minutes, no matter what level the player might've been, so it was pretty much impossible to rule guilty regarding the case.


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#47 Nortrom

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 08:33 PM

This is not good reasoning to bring in the different level of players.

 

 

 

Agreed, but:

 

"In accepting less than ten minutes of evidence, the factors that we consider will include: the nature of the draw situation, the actions of the draw refuser after a tie refusal, and the experience level of the players involved. But nothing is guaranteed in this area. If you want to be absolutely certain the MT will uphold your case, give us ten minutes of no-progress proof and a defeat screen."


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#48 tobermoryx

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 08:58 PM

You're focusing very much on the fact that I said silver player. That wasn't the point I was trying to stress. How about this:

 

it is entirely logical to assume that it would take any player 10 minutes to 1) trap one of nonobadork's peices and 2) advance the miner to a potentially winning position in opponent's territory.

 

Either way, a whole lot of progress was made during the 10 minutes, no matter what level the player might've been, so it was pretty much impossible to rule guilty regarding the case.

 

Well yes, you introduced the level of the player into the discussion.

 

 

Agreed, but:

 

"In accepting less than ten minutes of evidence, the factors that we consider will include: the nature of the draw situation, the actions of the draw refuser after a tie refusal, and the experience level of the players involved. But nothing is guaranteed in this area. If you want to be absolutely certain the MT will uphold your case, give us ten minutes of no-progress proof and a defeat screen."

 

I never did consider that when judging cases (other MT members did sometimes) and I think it should be removed from the rules.


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#49 Fairway

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 09:00 PM

Well yes, you introduced the level of the player into the discussion.

Because it's in the rules.

 

 

I never did consider that when judging cases (other MT members did sometimes) and I think it should be removed from the rules.

No matter the level of the player, had it been a 200 ELO or 1000 ELO player, the ruling would have been the same (not guilty) because of the amount of progress made. 

 

Even if the level of the player had been considered as a major aspect, then MT would have been acting in accordance with the rules and therefore the ruling would be fully justified.


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#50 GaryLShelton

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 08:26 AM

as I prefer to ignore you

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It's great we have a mutual feeling.
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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/
Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931

#51 GaryLShelton

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 09:14 AM

 
To be very clear, if the game had run for another couple of minutes, he would have won based on his current position, if he didn't do something stupid. However, he would have never achieved his position if it wasn't for the fact that I knew the 10 minute mark was about to come and I no longer cared because I thought I had a tie no matter what based on my understanding of the rules.

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This part seems to have been overlooked by some. You were cruising to a draw and felt the ending of the game assured. That's why your opponent was able to block off your one piece. It's unfortunate. Also, since you admit to the fact that you believe he was heading to your flag that cinches things.

This whole episode reminds me of a soccer video clip I saw somewhere on the site once. A chap had made a kick on goal and the goalie prematurely, it would turn out, ran off the field in joy that the shot had failed...all the while some very unfortunate rolling of the ball into the net goes on behind him while he's celebrating a win.

Better luck next time sealing up the deal.
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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/
Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931

#52 TheOptician

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 10:35 AM

That'll be this one

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=lMQ-lwTi7WU


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#53 Edmond Dantes 1844

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 12:02 AM

Quote from something Nortrom (Moderator) posted:

 

Black = Case in original state, nothing done yet
RED = Case opened, under review
Green = Case handled

 

Having reviewed some of the complaint threads, it seems that this is a very effective way (the color coding) of keeping order in these threads. It is very easy to see each case, one by one, and I am happy not to see clutter.

 

I would imagine it allows all of the MT panel to have more ability to navigate these threads...yes?



#54 Fairway

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 12:03 AM

I would imagine it allows all of the MT panel to have more ability to navigate these threads...yes?

So far, I would agree with this, yes, it is very helpful for us at least. Glad to see the idea is working so far ;)


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#55 Wnehme

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 01:37 AM

Can you tell me in a small explanation what is the difference between degree letters?
For example if someone use son of wh*** in chat without being provoked and repeated what will he get?

#56 Fairway

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 01:39 AM

Depends on a lot of things, like provocation, quantity, how it is used, etc.


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#57 Wnehme

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 10:02 AM

What about degree levels? What are the punishment that are associated with each level?

#58 Edmond Dantes 1844

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 11:03 AM

What about degree levels? What are the punishment that are associated with each level?

 

I think you would have to refer to Fairway's previous answer at:

 

http://forum.strateg...-2020/?p=489203

 

I imagine an illustration might be if one player chatted to the other that they were a "rotten jerk", that by itself is fairly benign although not nice. If however, the player kept hurling this insult several times, perhaps a dozen times more and then some, it may merit a warning letter as it starts to become an abuse...kind of like knocking at one's door...doing it two or three times and then leaving is fairly normal behavior...but then incessantly knocking with no end in sight would be a kind of abuse.

 

Now, apply this to harder language, you can see how a single insult can become progressively more and more abusive.

 

If you take someone's marshal with your spy and then you chat, LOL!!!, and the other player calls you a single name once (and it is not an f-bomb), chances are that if you reported it, MT would consider the possibility that the "LOL!!!" was a provocation of sorts...it also goes to what follows in the entire Battlechat, if the entire exchange is available. If only a portion of the Battlechat is submitted, and there is a suspicion that evidence which might point against the plaintiff has been intentionally hidden, MT would be likely to discuss this matter too.

 

In short, there really is no single simple answer to your question, but I am sure the MT, if contacted directly in PM might be more detailed in their reply...it is not really good form to publish publicly what words are considered acceptable and not acceptable.



#59 Nortrom

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 11:34 AM

The degrees mostly vary on:

1) Amount
2) Severity

1st is a warning
2nd is one week off
3rd is two weeks off
4th is four weeks off
5th come with a permanent ban. All others come with a warning too.

There is no standard, so these rulings are somewhat subjective. MT personell changes also have to do with this.

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#60 VENOM88

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 07:06 AM

If a player refuses to attack and also refuses a draw is this considered a violation of some sort?


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