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TheOptician vs doublea60 discussion


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#1 TheOptician

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 07:52 AM

Moderator note: this discussion follows a posted decision against TheOptician's claim for ATW in the reporting topic here: http://forum.strateg...697#entry475697
Here are the image links to the two screenshots in question:
https://imgur.com/KWiwrLJ

https://imgur.com/LgZLrz1

It has been moved here to clear up the reporting thread of a longer discussion. GLS
.

Firstly let me say I wouldn’t make this assertion out of nothing. There was chat which made me aware that this player knew my ‘main account’ (ie he is a forum reader) and was aware of the draw refusal guidelines (when I informed him of the 10 minute rule he replied ‘no, really theoptician?!!!’)

I didn’t capture this chat because he surprised me with his own draw request before I had screenshotted the chat (and I would have had to reject his draw offer to enable me to make that screenshot). Anyway I can’t prove any of this so I withdraw the first two paragraphs of this post.

———

This doesn’t qualify as a clear draw in your book? You can discern from the two screenshots that there has been 8 minutes of time wasting. That’s 8 minutes of continuing to play in a clear draw situation, which I would define as time-wasting.

Do you disagree that it is a clear draw, or you disagree that 8 minutes of continuing to play in a clear draw situation is time wasting, or do you agree with both but find the proof inadequate?

I ask because the reasoning given below seems to be related to the ELO (and thus experience) of the player:

>It doesn't seem Macchiavellian of the opponent in this game so much as the dumb luck of a much lower ranked player than yourself.

I don’t think you would have made this opinion had you looked at the players record (W284-L73, 591ELO, 76%)

Please could you clarify your position?

Thanks

#2 GaryLShelton

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 08:47 AM

TheOptician, first all, you have no second refusal screen. Therefore, you do not have any time at all between two refusals. It's not quite, but that's nearly an automatic no case maker.

Also, you have no defeat screen, which IS an automatic no case maker.

Secondly, and this is where skill comes in, so I have much less credibility here than yourself, but against a platinum player would you not have certainly lost this game? You've only got two movable pieces versus three, two of which are miners. How would this not have ended in a double chase against a more skilled opponent?

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Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#3 TheOptician

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 10:22 AM

TheOptician, first all, you have no second refusal screen. Therefore, you do not have any time at all between two refusals. It's not quite, but that's nearly an automatic no case maker.

Also, you have no defeat screen, which IS an automatic no case maker.

Secondly, and this is where skill comes in, so I have much less credibility here than yourself, but against a platinum player would you not have certainly lost this game? You've only got two movable pieces versus three, two of which are miners. How would this not have ended in a double chase against a more skilled opponent?

This isn’t a draw refusal case, it is a time abuse case. Do the same rules you quoted apply?

A player can abuse time for 9 minutes and then offer a tie. You’ll never get a defeat screen in this case.

I couldn’t lose because my piece can just move from A column to C column and back again forever.

#4 GaryLShelton

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 02:19 PM

This isn’t a draw refusal case, it is a time abuse case. Do the same rules you quoted apply?
A player can abuse time for 9 minutes and then offer a tie. You’ll never get a defeat screen in this case.
I couldn’t lose because my piece can just move from A column to C column and back again forever.

.

TheOptician, you have taken a draw refusal case framework and tried to make it fit upon an ATW accusation. The draw refusal case fails in that attempt for the reasons I laid out above.

Here I'm telling you it doesn't work for an ATW case either. If you offer a tie then your opponent has an opportunity to try to figure out how to win. He can't be accused of not attempting that without due time passage. 10 minutes is the gold standard for draw refusals, yes, but it is well-known that the MT will often be flexible in this rule. 8-9 minutes is usually sufficient if no progress has occurred. Had you asked him for a draw again at that 8 minute mark and he refused, then you likely would have had your draw refusal. But to interpret a fellow who hasn't accepted your draw request after 8 minutes as a time waster is simply not allowing the rules to apply to both parties equally.

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#5 TheOptician

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 02:42 PM

I interpreted it as such due to the first two paragraphs that I wrote but had to withdraw due to lack or proof.

I don’t have a problem with the verdict, just your original grounds for no case (which were ELO related).

I notice you didn’t give an opinion on whether 8 minutes of continuing to play in a clear draw situation is time wasting?

#6 GaryLShelton

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 02:43 PM

TheO, besides all else here I think with even me playing the other side with two miners against your two pieces plus an extra movable piece for me, there's no way I would have not won that game. How is it that he could not move the miner on C8 over toward your colonel to force the colonel to double chase it?

It was not a clear draw.

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#7 KissMyCookie

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 04:18 PM

...


Edited by KissMyCookie, 26 April 2019 - 04:30 PM.


#8 maxroelofs

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 04:26 PM

This is not a clear draw, it depends on what the 3th movable piece is. It is very hard for Theo to get a draw here if playing a platina. If the movable piece is in the corner, then yes, draw, but can't deduct that from the screens.

 

As for the rest of the discussion, I'm staying out of that. :)


Edited by maxroelofs, 26 April 2019 - 04:28 PM.

To watch stratego videos: https://www.youtube....HOHXWONQMsVcOLA

#9 UnladenSwallow

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 04:44 PM

Obvious tie depending on timetamp evidence.
-piece in corner must be mner and piece in centre a non-miner
-last miner must be pinned in corner, if not then the opponent can win easily (even Gary could win that :) )
-so with suitable amount of time elapsed it is clear miner is in cirner and thus it is a tie
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#10 UnladenSwallow

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 04:47 PM

Alternatively the flag could be open with the opponent not wishing to reveal this for fear of losing.

No matter, it is confirmed miner is not elsewhere with >4 min time evidence

Edited by UnladenSwallow, 26 April 2019 - 04:48 PM.


#11 TheOptician

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 06:36 PM

The miners are in the top left and bottom right.

#12 GaryLShelton

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 02:12 PM

That positioning of the miners would indeed make the game a draw. It's unfortunate this was not shown in the evidence. Although it would alter nothing the final verdict to have this fact proven, no original evidence indicated the exact positions of the miners except the words "Double A 60 has both miners pinned."

To establish their exact locations would have required screenshots showing the major chasing the upper corner piece at least once to indicate that miner's movement and position. With what was given, that location is not clear, though I can appreciate US's Colombo detective work and conclusion.

The trouble is nothing here satisfies the other requirements of either a draw refusal case or an ATW one.

Without a 2nd draw refusal screen and a defeat screen, there is no draw refusal case, clear or otherwise.

And an ATW case fails because the opponent is within his rights to "delay" (so-called) the game up to the no-progress limits of a draw.

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#13 GaryLShelton

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 02:52 PM

All the above said, to be clear, if all the parts of the evidence had been in place this would have operated on the rules of a clear draw since that would have been the case in this game.

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#14 TheOptician

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 03:39 PM

>That positioning of the miners would indeed make the game a draw. It's unfortunate this was not shown in the evidence. 

 

I find that viewpoint astonishing. Lets say the miner is in the middle lane. If so, it only needs to walk down and take the flag unchallenged. Yet in 8 minutes that didn't happen. This gives you your evidence. Not even my granny's cat would have failed to win that game - had the miner been in the middle lane.

 

Given that I've just heard the worst reasoning I've ever heard, I'd like to repose the question:

 

'In the case of a clear draw (as is absolutely clear in this case), at what point do you consider that the opponent is engaging in the practice of time-wasting?'


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#15 GaryLShelton

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 04:45 PM

TheOptician, that you have requested a draw puts this squarely in the draw refusal camp of complaints.  As long as the draw refusal case is still alive, your opponent cannot be accused of wasting time.  The fact that he realized the draw situation and offered his own tie request after 8 minutes shows he is not as much of jerk as many we see here regularly.

 

If you are so put out by the fellow wasting your time, and you believed that this situation was a clear draw, you have no one else to blame here for time wasting but the mirror man. Quite simply, had you illustrated the position of his second miner by showing its evasion in screenshots, as I described above, and then finished out the other simple requirements for a clear draw refusal case (second refusal screen after 5 minutes + defeat screen), you could have brought a much harsher punishment on this fellow than ATW, and much sooner.  A clear draw refusal is satisfied after only 5 minutes and would mean a -113/+13 1st draw refusal penalty, not a mere 50 point penalty + one-week ban for the opponent. 

 

We cannot make cases for anyone. It is up to you.  If myself and three much higher ranked players on the MT did not see what you say, then it was not very obvious.  Considering our case load it is not unreasonable to request that you prove your case more clearly.   



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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

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#16 TheOptician

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 03:10 PM

My opponent knew it was a draw before I offered the tie. He realised this when I trapped his first miner in the bottom right corner and his second miner in the top left. I gave him a couple more minutes to let it settle in, then offered a tie - which he refused.

Now at that point - he knows it is a draw, yet he declines. This is not a case of him realising - 8 minutes later - that it is a tie. This is a case of him knowing that he can waste 10 minutes of my time.

Look, I submitted this case knowing it was beetle. I never expected MT to convict. Forget the specifics of this case - I’m trying to get you to answer a general question, and so far you’ve ignored it twice.

Let’s try again: In the case of a clear draw (ie where screenshots are sufficient to illustrate a clear draw) - how many minutes have to pass before you consider that the opponent is deliberately wasting time?

There is a loophole in the system. Currently you require players to play on, take loads of screenshots, and wait 10 minutes and get two draw refusals.

If an opponent wants to waste your time then currently they can reject the first offer and make you dance around.

What I am suggesting is - where a clear draw is extremely obvious (and proven) - that you should accept screenshots of a draw refusal 2 minutes apart. Let’s cut down on the completely unnecessary time that is currently required.

Please don’t tell me that this was not a proven clear draw - that’s beside the point. Just imagine it is.

#17 GaryLShelton

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 05:58 PM

TheOptician, you need to pull whatever it is in your ears out. I have not ignored you at all but told you twice the deal. Exactly. If you have a clear draw, it operates according to clear draw rules. They were announced very publicly here:
http://forum.strateg...-5-minute-rule/

I have stated twice in the above conversation that you could have followed the 5 minute draw rules if you felt this was a clear draw. Of course, this would have to be proven to the MT, along with all the needful supporting screenshots (2 refusals + defeat), but I'm quite certain you have established here, albeit with more deduction than should be necessary, that the draw was clear.

Therefore, the reason you wasted time beyond the 5 minute mark is unknown to me. You very plainly had the opportunity to end this game after five minutes by fulfilling the clear draw requirements set out above. Do not blame the MT for giving you the opportunity for a 5 minute clear draw and you not taking it.

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#18 TheOptician

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 07:24 PM

I’m not blaming MT - the decision was fine. I’m just trying to get an answer to this question

(Take 4)

In the case of a clear draw (ie where screenshots are sufficient to illustrate a clear draw) - how many minutes have to pass before you consider that the opponent is deliberately wasting time?
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#19 GaryLShelton

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 08:17 AM

I’m not blaming MT - the decision was fine. I’m just trying to get an answer to this question
(Take 4)
In the case of a clear draw (ie where screenshots are sufficient to illustrate a clear draw) - how many minutes have to pass before you consider that the opponent is deliberately wasting time?

.
Technically, there will be never a decision reached that the opponent is wasting time. It is a draw refusal case; not an ATW one. That semantical point aside, the treatment for clear draw refusals is explained in the announcement I provided the link to above.

There we say that the clear draw procedure is similar to the no-progress draw procedure where 10 minutes is the gold standard. For clear draws that gold standard is only 5 minutes. That said, the flexibility for the 5 minutes for clear draws has not been sufficiently tested as it has been for the 10 minutes in the no-progress draws. In the latter we have adjudicated no-progress draws after as little as 6 minutes of proof, but that is a huge outlier and still very risky. I did not approve that case myself. 8-9 minutes is smarter and a generally safe bet for a victim, provided the opponent is not attacking.

For a clear draw? You had better stick to the full 5 minutes is my recommendation. I personally will be a lot less flexible on the 5 minute clear draw standard than the 10 minute one, where I personally have upheld them in as early as 7 minutes with a dormant opponent.

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931





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