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Double/Multiple Chasing Discussion, March 2019


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#61 GaryLShelton

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 06:16 AM

There should be an expectation that everyone is going to abide by the rules, not that they can ignore rules that their opponent fails to remind them about.

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Concerning the rule about the BattleChat warning, I consider the above the best reasoning in a nutshell for its elimination.

But I also feel this same sentiment should apply to the enforcement of d/m chasing as well. We should have the expectation players will follow the rules. If we set the offense recognition point high enough, there shouldn't be any qualms about convicting the guilty--and awarding win points to the victim--in my opinion.

Edited by GaryLShelton, 08 April 2019 - 06:21 AM.


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#62 tobermoryx

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 06:21 AM

Gary, you have probably given more thought to this than anyone else, so you should just go ahead with whatever penalties you deem appropriate.


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#63 scottrussia

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 08:42 AM

Gary

The real problem for most players is its just too much time and effort to report all the nonsense.

 

Just for a disconnect.  I have to do a print screen, open an application to save the print screen, paste, then name the file and save.  Now I go back to the game and wait for the clock to run down.  Then do it all over again.  THen I have to open the files and white out my setup and resave both files. Then I have to go to a site on the internet and save the two files there (and I can't remember my password).  Then I go to the forum and ask for a case to be opened.

 

That's all well and good, except when the guy comes back and now I've forgotten what was going on while I'm pasting and saving screens.

 

For abuse I've got to do a similar routine, only during the game - which means increased likelihood of forgetting pieces.

 

Now I grant you that I'm probably on the low end of the scale when it comes to technological savvy and am very slow at all this stuff.  But it just makes it work and i'm not playing stratego to do work.  Double chasing and draw refusal - not even close to worth the effort.

 

Unfortunately, I've noticed a much higher percentage of disconnects recently.  Also I play a higher percentage of "fake" accounts.  Both of which tell me that regular folks (ie those just here for enjoyment) are leaving and the folks causing trouble remain.  I would expect that at the very top folks don't want to lose ELO points, but once your below that top tier I don't think it really impacts people.  

 

Anyways, I wouldn't worry too much about double chasing - it happens and its frustrating.  But since the site also allows continual chasing to "save" a piece when I have earned the advantage, its as if your only penalizing half the instances anyways. But you know what - a much more important issue is that scouts should NOT be able to attack from afar!!!!!

 

You could announce that your just sticking to handling cases of abuse and it would be all the same to most of the players on the site.


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#64 GaryLShelton

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 01:03 PM

Gary, you have probably given more thought to this than anyone else, so you should just go ahead with whatever penalties you deem appropriate.

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While I appreciate such a double vote of confidence (with TheO liking your post) the structure of the penalty schedule is not the issue on the table, but rather the question of when to recognize the offense. It is true that the 5/25 idea has been around for awhile, but it is also true it has not been addressed seriously since The Prof was on the MT back in 2015.

TheOptician gave us 10 minutes when only 5 were required in the case that launched all this. Therefore, the question stands, Is he and everyone else happy seeing 5 minutes with screenshots or 25 moves with video concretized as the dual level to base an award of victory points off of? Or should the threshold be higher for either category?

If no one has objections then the 5/25 will remain as our working gold standard. And as such will be legalistically enforced, along with the rest of the structure mentioned above, including the present penalty schedule and the elimination of the BattleChat warning requirement.

The rules that get established are like a marriage, guys. They are worth putting in a little heart to press for perfection. It is you guys who will be voicing any dissatisfactions to the MT when they are enforced.

So speak now....

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#65 Nortrom

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 01:10 PM

The entire treshhold discussion has always been kind of pointless. Once it is recognized that  D/M is going on, action can be taken against it.
 
Yes, we need to have some sort of treshhold.. but there also is the clause, I believe, which says that if people are " close " to it, trying to avoid the 25/5 (or whatever), it will still be considered a D/M.
 
Just pick whatever number as a guideline and don't be too stubborn on it when it comes to enforcing the issue.

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#66 GaryLShelton

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 01:22 PM

Gary
The real problem for most players is its just too much time and effort to report all the nonsense.
 
Just for a disconnect.  I have to do a print screen, open an application to save the print screen, paste, then name the file and save.  Now I go back to the game and wait for the clock to run down.  Then do it all over again.  THen I have to open the files and white out my setup and resave both files. Then I have to go to a site on the internet and save the two files there (and I can't remember my password).  Then I go to the forum and ask for a case to be opened.
 
That's all well and good, except when the guy comes back and now I've forgotten what was going on while I'm pasting and saving screens.

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I must admit I'm not as aware of what to do on the desktop as the phone. On my phone I can just take screenshots with the flick of my wrist across the screen and I can then go on without any big hassle. I can deal with all of them after the game is over at my leisure.

Maybe someone knows how to do this on the desktop as well. That would indeed be helpful.

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#67 GaryLShelton

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 02:09 PM

The entire treshhold discussion has always been kind of pointless. Once it is recognized that  D/M is going on, action can be taken against it.
 
Yes, we need to have some sort of treshhold.. but there also is the clause, I believe, which says that if people are " close " to it, trying to avoid the 25/5 (or whatever), it will still be considered a D/M.
 
Just pick whatever number as a guideline and don't be too stubborn on it when it comes to enforcing the issue.

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Pointless, Nortrom? Hardly.

Yes, there can be flexibility in judgements. This is why there are guilty verdicts rendered after 7-9 minutes of draw refusal instead of the 10 minute gold standard.

But this matter of double chasing is somewhat different. Instead of setting a maximum 10 minute figure where the offense is 100% a lock, though it is often recognized earlier between 7-9 minutes, as in draw refusal, here we are setting a floor (a threshold) where below that figure the offense will NOT USUALLY be recognized. Yes, we do have some flexiblility built in for repeat offenders who approach this level but do not pass it, but enforcement against them will be the exception rather than the norm. The 5/25 mark will typically be when the offense is triggered.

Is it severe enough to award victory points at for everyone?

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#68 TheOptician

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 02:25 PM

Always victory.

Otherwise anyone in a close game may be able to force a draw by double chasing.

Against the rules is exactly that.

Imagine a football game where Shelton United are level with Nortrom Rovers - with 10 minutes to go. Rovers are on top and looking likely to score, so to make sure that doesn’t happen a player from Shelton United picks up the ball and starts running into the seating area, ignoring the whistle and dodging security guards.

The referee shouts at him to stop - and he doesn’t. So the ref says ‘right that’s enough - it’s a draw’.

#69 Nortrom

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 02:41 PM

" Shelton united " would imply a team of GLS's.. glad it is a hypothetical situation.

 

Nortrom Rovers does sound good though ;).


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#70 TheOptician

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 02:52 PM

By the way, for those wondering why the ref didn’t just show the player a red card - and/or add the appropriate injury time - this is because the referee is limited in this analogy like the programming on this site.
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#71 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 05:40 PM

Always victory.

Otherwise anyone in a close game may be able to force a draw by double chasing.

Against the rules is exactly that.

Imagine a football game where Shelton United are level with Nortrom Rovers - with 10 minutes to go. Rovers are on top and looking likely to score, so to make sure that doesn’t happen a player from Shelton United picks up the ball and starts running into the seating area, ignoring the whistle and dodging security guards.

The referee shouts at him to stop - and he doesn’t. So the ref says ‘right that’s enough - it’s a draw’.

 

how would you have judged this game of mine against Alfonso: http://forum.strateg...-2019/?p=474711

 

- if I had not broken the D/M chase after 25 moves as I did but after 5 minutes?

- if I had not broken the D/M chase and would have surrendered after 10 minutes?

- if I did as I did and broke the D/M chase?

 

MT decided that because i broke the D/M chase and got a victory my claim is not receivable, so alfonso has not been punished for D/M chasing, while if I had surrendered after the 5/25 rule alfonso would have been recognized guilty and punished for D/M chasing. Is it correct that the punishment of the D/M chaser depends on my action?


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#72 TheOptician

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 06:42 PM

The opinion I posted earlier in this thread was that the double chaser should be punished regardless.

#73 Nortrom

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 10:11 AM

By the way, for those wondering why the ref didn’t just show the player a red card - and/or add the appropriate injury time - this is because the referee is limited in this analogy like the programming on this site.

Yes, this is why the VAR has been introduced ;).


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#74 GaryLShelton

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 02:33 PM

Ignoring the fact it was a rather artificial double chase that you allowed because you could have won that game at any time*, Napoleon, the chase you showed was broken after 21 chasing moves in your video, not 25. Plus it ended in a victory for you.

Why the first condition of draw refusal should hold is an arbitrary matter but seemingly acceptable considering no one ("noone" still wrong ;) ) has spoken against it. Why the second condition of draw refusal should hold is because the MT has been of the opinion that draw refusal needs to be of a severe enough level to warrant the awarding of win/loss points for it since we cannot enforce the matter in a live way like a live arbiter or hard programming.

In those circumstances the award is merely the cessation of the behavior (Nortrom's exception noted). Here we operate after the fact and cannot stop minor infractions in real time. Because of this, we must ignore all very minor cases of d/m chasing, where a block of the movement would be the only proper response, and only look at those cases where the behavior is bad and would deserve the ELO/ban kinds of punishments that we can apply.

To this end we have felt a victory by the victim meant, by definition, that the d/m chasing wasn't bad enough to warrant any kind of MT action.

On the other hand, it was argued by TheO that the chase should be independent of the victim's actions once the double chase threshold has been crossed. While a fair point, I would contend we have a new rule here and should maintain the conservative approach. We've made a concession to accept tie screens in d/m chasing cases, and perhaps we can expand this enforcement even more later to include victory screens**, but for now I think we should require the game to end in a defeat or tie screen for the victim before the MT accepts the case.

Another problem with accepting victory screen cases would be the penalty schedule. What penalty would you like to see in victory screen cases? If the penalty now is "loss of game plus a warning" for the first two levels, then what would you have that change to since the culprit has already lost the game? What would you want to see happen, penalty-wise, for a 1st and 2nd offense?
__________

*We will have to include in the rule a provision preventing any guilty decision in artificial situations like that.

**The 5/25 plan needs to be put through the rigors of actual game cases for awhile before moving to accepting victory screen cases.

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#75 Nortrom

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 02:57 PM

Just send the instructional letter and move on.


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#76 GaryLShelton

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 08:36 PM

don mitsos brings up the question again of playing on after the offense has occurred. He reports a case today to the MT in the MT reporting thread that I copy below.

I had replied to him that because he won the game his case was a "non-starter" and wouldn't be opened. He felt that just because he won that shouldn't rule out his opponent getting punished. Of course, one of the key issues discussed in this topic was accepting a defeat screen and a tie screen, but not a victory one. Still, some of you may agree with don mitsos's point; some may not. To be clear, the standing policy at this time is to not hear cases that end in victory for the victim. Please comment below.

Unfortunately, at the time of this posting don mitsos hasn't posted a link to his video evidence due to technical problems. Maybe someone here can assist him to get that done?

Why would it be a non-starter? I don't claim any points, i just want him to be punished for something he did which is forbidden. During our game it is obvious he knew about this rule but he does not recognize it. 
In other words you have a player who knows about the rule ( which was MT made) and chooses to ignore it, showing with this behavior a lacks of respect to his opponent and to the MT and the rules MT applies. 
 
So are you sure you want to reward this kind of behavior?
 
The video is at MT's disposal, just tell me how to send it.



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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#77 GaryLShelton

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 09:10 AM

don mitsos provides a link to his complaint today. The video clearly shows he was double chased for more than 5 minutes and also 25 moves, but don mitsos actually went on to win the game.

The link to his video is here:
https://youtu.be/cGzOdfKWTPA

My position has always been to not accept victory screen cases. This may be the complaint where I change my mind. As long as the 5/25 threshold limits (either one) is hit, then I will move that we should recognize the offense. Having said this, I will remain very legalistic about the threshold. It won't be 4 minutes and 24 moves. The case will get denied by me if so. But if either the 5/25 numbers are met, then I now feel we should hear the case.

I also move that we clarify that we should have only punitive punishments for the d/m chaser if he already loses the game. In other words, everywhere the penalty schedule (see at bottom) includes "Lost game (and thus point deduction)" this language will have to be ignored in complaints where victory screens are part of the case. This would, in effect, mean that in the first two offenses a double chaser will only get a warning currently if he loses those games.

Further, we should stipulate that an ending screen should only be necessary if the victim wishes points to be restored to him.

What say you, TheO? Have I come completely to your side now?

1. Lost game (and thus point deduction) + Warning letter
2. Lost game (and thus point deduction) + Warning letter
3. Lost game (and thus point deduction) + 100 point deduction + Warning letter
4. Lost game (and thus point deduction) + 100 point deduction + 1 week game side ban + Warning letter
5. ELO to 100 penalty + 1 month game side ban + Warning letter
6. Permanent ban



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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#78 Nortrom

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 09:33 AM

Just send the instructional letter and move on.


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#79 GaryLShelton

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 03:44 PM

There's no such thing as an "instructional letter" in the penalty schedule.  There are, however, warning letters.  But to send one of those the accused has to be considered guilty.  Without accepting a victory screen there is no guilt upon which to send any letter.  Do you therefore agree that the guilt exists independent of the victory screen in this case?



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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#80 TheOptician

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 04:39 PM

>Do you therefore agree that the guilt exists independent of the victory screen in this case?

Yes of course


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