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#1 Javier Flag

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 01:25 AM

Oh my gosh it's a new tournament newspaper created specifically for the PRO Series just what you wanted maybe I'm psychic

 

38 professional warriors have promptly promised to prowl the battlefields, propel and provoke their enemy into prolonged submission whilst protecting their flag (props provided) to prove their providence and probably prosper in the proper and progressive arena that is the PRO Series.

 

And if you thought that was a mouthful then wait til you see the 1st Round clash which the draw has kindly laid out for us as - Sniper - takes on OVERLORD.

 

As the action unfolds we'll keep you updated frequently or not at all with hilarious anecdotes and boring facts. I'll be pitchside to bring you gossip, news, rumours and stories - but mainly just re-caps after events have already happened as these aspiring brave souls take to the battlefield to climb the PRO Ladder.

 

This is Javier Flag reporting from a location.

 


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#2 TheOptician

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Posted 27 March 2019 - 10:13 PM

In the Big game of R1, - Sniper - landed a kill shot on OVERLORD to signal the start of a new rivalry....

 

Other 'surprises' were provided when LAZZLO took down panther65 (at the second attempt) and fighter68 defeated Moghedien

 

Tournament newcomer garlick had a plate that was too strong for Verti_GO

 

There were big name clashes as Napoleon 1er beat leppie and Sem van Geffen defeated Great Manos

 

Players with new names had a good time as Sorrow (Fks) beat Le Chuck and mirmidonas.gr (pasxalistz) won against andreas94

 

TC had a couple of wins to celebrate as Master Mind beat NebojsaN962 and TheOptician scraped a win over yiaver

 

It was a good round if your name began with H as hellinon conquered Fully134 and Henry domerkant vanquished nickoriginal21

 

Same applies if your name begins with J - there were wins for Jesus_saves against Kambia and josephwhite versus roeczak

 

Yellowhat celebrated victory over Kartoffelfresser by allegedly wearing a yellow hat; Grizzlybear didn't shave after a win over Capt.gunter; Fairway played golf after beating vspy13

 

Victories for Napoleon2eme over innergamer, and dutchkillers against Lisa07 wrap up this round-up wrap up.


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#3 Napoleon 2ème

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 11:19 AM

Sorry for this late question, but in the standings it is said that Moghedien is on stage 2 but here it is said he lost.... why?


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#4 TheOptician

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 01:31 PM

Moghedien is on Level 1 (see standings below)

http://forum.strateg...gs/#entry474152

However his opponent for Week 2 is on Level 2. This is because there are 19 players on each Level, and so in Week 2 one player from Level 1 (Moghedien) must play one player from Level 2 (Grizzlybear).
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#5 TheOptician

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 11:38 AM

9 PRO warriors got their first wins of the tourney to move to Level 2:

OVERLORD beat Capt.gunter
innergamer progressed after NebojsaN962 got stuck in traffic
leppie conquered panther65
yiaver overcame lisa07
Great Manos triumphed over Verti_GO
andreas94 advanced over vspy13
roeczak got past nickoriginal21
LeChuck tasted victory against Fully134
Kartoffelfresser was victorious against Kambia

With the Top 4 in this PRO Ladder qualifying for the PRO Final, players need to get a minimum of 4 wins to give themselves a chance, so the 18 players on Level 2 are still in with a shot.

10 PRO Warriors have back to back wins to reach Level 3:

Sem van geffen delivered hell to hellinon
TheOptician delivered sorrow to Sorrow
dutchkillers was taken down by a dutch Sniper
Swiss double joy occurred when Napoleon 1er and Napoleone 2eme beat mirmidonas.gr and Henry domerkant
Moghedien felt grizzly after defeat to Grizzlybear
Yellowhat dazzled LAZZLO
josephwhite found the scent to victory over garlick
Jesus_saves advanced against Fairway - the first game was a draw but then unfortunately Fairway got trapped in the closet and missed the replay
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#6 Napoleon 2ème

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 11:52 AM

TheO, I defeated Henry Domerkant, I think you repeated twice pasxalitz
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#7 TheOptician

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 12:54 PM

TheO, I defeated Henry Domerkant, I think you repeated twice pasxalitz


Thankfully it is an online newspaper and the PROpaganda does not have to recall one million printed copies.
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#8 Napoleon 2ème

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 03:13 PM

And fortunately it has no impact on the environment  ;)


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#9 josephwhite

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 08:56 AM

I have forfeited the game against Sniper as per my previous comment in another section:

 

http://forum.strateg...t-ups/?p=472991

 

I believe that Sniper is a multi-account player who is not declaring his aliases and thus I choose not to play him in tournaments. It's true, I can create a new setup and limit the risk of setup scouting, but I'm doing this as a form of protest against his playing in tournaments. I don't blame the TC as there is nothing they can really do about it without concrete proof, which I don't have.

 

As a compromise, I offered to play a game via Skype, but he refused. To be fair to him, he offered to play and forfeit himself if I thought he cheated in that specific game. For me, it's not about the specific game, but about his undeclared accounts and scouting setups (not proven, but my accusation).

 

Unlike other players who I believe have undeclared multi-accounts and possibly scout setups, Sniper is very polite and generally accommodating.


Edited by josephwhite, 04 April 2019 - 09:02 AM.

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#10 Jesus_saves

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 09:48 AM

Hallo Joseph, we have exchanged about this topic for a while in private chat... I find it unfortunate that you took this step, and I would like to explain why openly to the community.

Setup scouter usually have a bad character, a very bad character. The only way to gain an unfair advantage for them is to play with hidden names. If sniper would be such a kind of person. He would have smiled and accepted the victory against you without a comment.

Out of my perspective you give in your own statement minimum two good reasons why sniper is not the kind of person you accuse him to be.

First he offered you the victory. A bad character setup scouter would never do that, cause this shows very good character and is in direct conflict with your accusation... Think about this...

Second you say he is very polite, a bad character setup scouter is not polite.

Third, but this doesn‘t count too much I have analysed his game style from the 3 games which are online (one against myself) (by the way now you could claim I‘m also a setup scouter and game style scouter). I have played against numerous setup scouters, and often I loose against them when I play the first time against them. Cause I use standard defense setups against blizzers / 0 tie status, which they already know and have an easy win.... My conclusion of the games I can see from sniper in the internet is that I find no evidence at all of setup scouting. A setup scouter usually takes very risky hits often on unmoved pieces (cause he knows the piece standing there) I don‘t see this in Snipers games.

But what I can observe is somehow a brilliant gift in assigning values to pieces which have been moved in a special way but not shown yet. I have to admit I don‘t have this gift. As there is no sound in his games you see it with his mouse movements over pieces and then movements on the assigned value of the piece...

Overall I find it not fair to claim someone is a setup scouter without having proof, cause you dishonor a person with that in public.

My summery I like you very much, and I like John (Sniper) very much, and again I ask you to do what I have proposed, play 3 games in friendly mode with him with setups you have never used before and tell the public the results. And then settle the matter with him and take back your accusation in the public if you have no proof. That is my suggestion to solve this situation.

So again, I like you and I like sniper and no one should be accused publicly without strong evidence....

I hope you still change your mind and play against him, cause I don‘t want to have the final score not be the correct one, cause of thinks like this... The best should always win.

John

#11 - Sniper -

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 10:27 AM

Read -
http://forum.strateg...t-ups/?p=473001
http://forum.strateg...pers-statement/
- and watch some videos -
https://www.youtube....khmTwsZ6XSHvcaA
 
Sincerely do not have illegal undeclared accounts. Play to enjoy the game. Not to win. Certainly not by cheating.
 
No player may resign without a game. Will honor my words -> grant you victory if you still feel sincerely cheated. Without a public mess/statement -> you will have won. Rather enjoy a game and transfer victory in case of loss than see someone leave tournament on incorrect speculation and get dishonorable free win.
 
Will record and explain every move in public if you like.
 

Wed 8-10
Wed 10-12
Thu 6-8

Thu 8-10

And

 

 

Is there some other way you could protest - one that didn’t involve sacrificing your chance of winning this tournament and giving your opponent a free win?

I admire those who stick to their principles - however in this case the only one negatively impacted is yourself. I am unsure what this protest is hoping to achieve.

Please can I ask you to reconsider one last time. If your position remains the same then we will regrettably have to accept your forfeiture.


For the record. Consider myself the victim here -> Joseph has a choice here - I do not.

Am a legit - non-cheating - player here to enjoy games.

An enjoyable game gets taken away from me. Unjustly.

People accuse me of being alias - cheater - whatever. Unjustly.

Trying to prove myself by contributing videos with full explanations for everyone to see the reasoning. Beat Overlord in last two games when he was taking full 5 minute setup-time -> has to be new setup right? Also have full video with reasoning with it. Completely legit. Cheater cannot just do that. No permission to publish from Overlord.

Josephs forfeit actually works - it punishes me.

- Takes away my game
- Takes away honorable path to victory
- Reinforces public belief that I am alias or cheater.

All completely unjust. Have tried to prove myself. Made an offer in which I can prove myself.

- Got rejected -> do not even get the chance. What kind of principle is that? Punishing players you seem unable to comprehend? Or your other players for that matter.
 

I don't agree. I have conferred with other experienced players who also strongly suspect you of being an alias. Your refusal to use Skype further confirms this suspicion. Therefore, I forfeit.


Just plain narrow-minded. Have good reasons for it -
- Cannot due to my history - see my statement. Do not trust anyone. That is my principle.
- Skype spies on you.
- My laptop cannot handle Skype properly.
- Will be distracted by it - knowing to be watched - and cannot enjoy my game properly.

Very narrow-minded to let that reinforce your speculations. Which are narrow-minded themselves. Did not get any fair chance.

Without fair chance will have no choice to make a public statement about this and my rejected offer if questions arise. This is ridiculous and unfair.
Do you give permission to copy this PM - to let community judge themselves?

Considering leaving this and all future tournaments if the distrust is reinforced by unjust actions like this one by Joseph. Would do so before this final - so to have two more enjoyable games. But unlikely to accept dishonorable victory. So Joseph - it is working. Except that you are unjustly punishing and banishing a legit player without any fair chance. That will be on you.
 
Joseph should be punished. For consciously disrupting the tournament and putting me in a dishonorable position.

 

These were my replies to the matter. Did not get fair chance.



#12 josephwhite

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 10:37 AM

John (Jesus_Saves), I strongly believe that Sniper scouted my setup with a second account (or he got the setup in some other way that he has not disclosed). Also, there are other factors that reinforce my view.

 

See below the setup that I used against him. I don't record games, but I really wish I had done for this one.

 

eTEwjdx.png

 

In the game, there weren't a lot of pieces that had moved floating around. It was clear that he knew all my pieces from Major upwards. Every time I would bring out a piece, he would avoid it with the same or lower piece, but would be willing to risk his higher piece by moving next to it even though he couldn't capture it (unless he would chase it to capture it and/or other pieces, which he never did).

 

It made sense that he suspected my gen was a high piece, but it seemed clear that he knew it was a gen and not a marsh or col. What was odd is that he would risk his marsh to touch against pieces (witihout capturing, but would not risk it against my spy, which was in a very unusual position). He also clearly knew that my marsh was a marsh, even though I had moved it up a couple of spaces (it was next to my miner, I think, which is one piece above it), but he clearly knew that this was a weak piece and that the marsh was the marsh. This happened so many times that it was baffling. Eventually, he started to trade high pieces (gen for gen), (col for col), etc.

 

He was keeping the game close. What I don't understand is why he risked his high pieces just to gain limited information (e.g. move a marshal against another piece without capturing, all you do is confirm that it is not a spy). It's such a risk for so little reward. He could have easily just trapped a few pieces together and killed them, but he never did this. So on one hand, he was "great" at identifying pieces, but poor on capitalising on this information decisively. By comparison, other players like the Van Geffen's are good at "educated guesses" on pieces, but they will capitalise on the risk that they will lose a high piece, but gain a medium piece and also gain information.

 

The other issue for me is how he got so good at this "determination of pieces" with so few games played online. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't disclosed to playing other top players offline, but just mentioned he played it with friends.

 

The third issue is why he is not willing to expose his real identity to anyone (as far as I'm aware). Apparently, he lives in the Netherlands, but doesn't go to Live tournaments. He won't play via Skype or similar mediums.

 

Lastly, it seems that a number of other players are suspicious of his behaviour, as has been previously reported on the forums.

 

I admit that there is a small chance that I'm wrong, but for me, I believe my accusation beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

I think he comes across as a nice person, which makes him different than the typical person that I would suspect. I don't think being nice means that all is above board though.

 

Also, I don't think playing him multiple times will prove anything. All it will do is help me to understand his style better. I would create completely new setups, so he wouldn't be able to cheat anyway. My main concern is that he is not being transparent about his other accounts and thus should not be playing in tournaments.


Edited by josephwhite, 04 April 2019 - 10:43 AM.

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#13 TheOptician

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 12:43 PM

Speaking generally, TC (and indeed this site) has extremely limited means to identify aliases.

An alias can avoid all the known methods of identification by employing only a little care.

As you all know, TC cannot take any action regarding specific cases unless there is incriminating evidence. Patterns of play perceived by one player to be strange can’t qualify as incriminating evidence due to its subjective nature.

For this reason tournaments will always be subject to the possibility that aliases are present or that players have not disclosed all their accounts in the Alias Register - unless

One of two things happen:

1. The site employs an identification process
2. TC employs an identification process

Number 1. let’s face it will never happen

Number 2. faces a number of obstacles - not least admin permission - but it is possible. I would imagine that if TC did run a tournament that required identification then participants would drastically reduce (as many players quite rightly want to keep their identity private).

However it would at least be optional. Players not wishing to divulge private information simply wouldn’t play. That way you could at least have a smaller verified tournament where everyone knows who they are playing for sure.

Of course - it still wouldn’t eliminate set-up scouting - that could only be achieved by 1. Above.

#14 Jesus_saves

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 01:24 PM

Hallo Joseph,

You did send me this already. Anticipation in Stratego is important. From one game you can‘t judge that someone cheated. You are recording your games with whom you played what setting. To provide evidence please name the accounts you have in suspicion to be hidden accounts of sniper. If you can‘t provide evidence, and prove it I suggest that the MT should put you under penalty and withdraw you from this tournament. Especially if a mate reaffirms he has no other accounts, wrong accusations have to stop. This can‘t be tollerated, out of my perspective. This is not fair behavior. Sorry Joseph....

John
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#15 Napoleon 2ème

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 02:00 PM

Hi all

As I am new on the community I don't know much about the past but here I personally see accusations without proves. Considering sniper is on the top I suppose it clear that he is good at guessing.

I don't think that the fact he doesn-)'t want to use skype is a prove of having other accounts.. as with skype you can only see the face and hear the voice...

Greets
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#16 josephwhite

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 03:17 PM

I didn't say I have proof that he is cheating. Part of the debate is the fact that I don't have complete proof. In fact, I don't think that there is any effective way to prove that someone has a multiple account or is cheating. The best we could do is check IP addresses, which it seems we can't, and even this is not fullproof, as some people may be able to use VPNs, etc. to get around it. I've presented my case, and if I were on the TC, I agree that it is not sufficient enough to show that he was cheating (hence back to the debate of how does one prove this). However, I personally believe that he is cheating, and therefore don't want to play him in the tournament. I'd rather forfeit the game. If I'm not allowed to forfeit a game because I believe the opponent is cheating, then they can make the ruling to force me to withdraw from the tournament, as John has proposed. Alternatively, they can punish me for submitting "unsubstantiated allegations". Or they can just accept my forfeiture and we move on with the tournament. It's up to them and I'll accept whatever is decided.



#17 Jesus_saves

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 03:35 PM

Joseph, it would have been okay just to forfeit (even though i don‘t think it is the best solution...) without any comment. But you have accused sniper publicly of being a cheater, and this is not correct action from you, as you have no prove you harm his reputation. This is the difference in this case.

Out of my perspective this case would deserve a punishment for you, not for sniper as there is no case against him, just own perception.

If that helps both of you, I volunteer to act as an arbiter if you want to take up my proposal that you play with him 3 games. I can connect with two computers on each of yours and see both settings, follow the game, if you like I can make video recording of both and then we can mutually come to a conclusion.

But as long as you have no evidence I suggest you take your accusation back, that would be good sportsman ship...

This is now up to MT to decide, but we have to give sniper his good reputation back. He is a great player and doesn‘t deserve these public accusations.

Currently in the Netherlands there might be only 4 online players on Stratego.com who could be his cheating accounts and this is Nortrom, Spion, Hielco and Sem if we just look at Elo comparision. And all 4 of them are known to the public....

I have not yet seen a cheater reaching more then 1000 Elo points so far....

John

#18 - Sniper -

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 04:27 PM

Am dropping my former charge that Joseph should be punished.
 
Completely disagree with his actions - John described that well - thank you. But Josephs nuances and objective portrayal of the case let me put it to rest. Wont solve anything. Creates difficulties. Spent enough words on it.
 
Disrupted tournament remains. If I reach the final I will resign before playing it -> do not want dishonorable victory. And do not want to place losing finalist in position to have same sort of fake victory -> there should be honorable winner. Want to enjoy the remaining games though.


#19 TheOptician

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 05:09 PM


>If I reach the final I will resign before playing it

This also creates a less than ideal scenario, as it hands victory to a player without a game.

Please can you commit to seeing out the tournament, as we can’t have someone playing on the condition that they will resign should they win their next game.

In regards to TC taking any action we will discuss, but as Sniper has dropped any call for punishment then perhaps it is best this issue now rests.

#20 Napoleon 2ème

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Posted 04 April 2019 - 05:28 PM

I don't think Joseph should be punished for a choice, in the end he just decided not to play that's all, the reason is maybe not the best but there are no right opinion, as they are opinions
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