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Setup of the Week


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#41 Fairway

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Posted 3 weeks ago

Here is my setup of the week:

 

https://imgur.com/a/gaCQytn

 

This is the setup I used for awhile that you can find featured on my youtube channel in the Road to Platinum series and against vspy13 in our PROladder tourney game. This setup also beat Sorrow and Napoleon1er in a ranked games, and I played Jesus_Saves to a draw in our PROladder game with this setup. I also reached my all-time high ELO rating of 833 (Platinum Major) using this setup. 

 

I like to advance especially on the right side and also in the center with this setup. My first moves consist of advancing with the major in an effort to trade it off or take a captain for info. I will then bring pieces from behind the lake to continue my offensive on that side. Sometimes I will cover the general with a piece and sometimes I will leave it uncovered, after the major has been killed, depending on how liberally my opponent uses scouts. For example if I was playing myself I would always leave the general covered.  :lol:

 

I play defense only on the left side and let my opponent try to develop an attack. Almost all of the time my opponent's attacks fall short on that side as it is well constructed defensively. The spy and marshal are also meant to be unpredictable. Opponents will expect the marshal on your aggressive side, but upon discovering the general, often consider the scout on D3 to be the marshal. I have collected countless generals and colonels with the major on A2 as they assume the marshal is toward the center and waltz into my setup next to the marshal, and I use the major as bait. This can be viewed in my game against vspy13. I often bluff the sergeant on G3 as my spy, as well.

 

This setup is the only setup I have been able to use to get to 800 ELO and have not been able to return there since after moving on to different setups. I love to use this setup against 500-700 ELO players and it also works effectively up to 900 ELO players in ranked games, and possible even higher considering the impressive results against Sorrow, Napoleon, and Jesus_Saves. 


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#42 Sorrow

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Posted 3 weeks ago

No way I lost on sorrow :)

It’s a nice set up I think the spy would be better placed under the lake, simple swap with miner. It can make it more obvious but It protects against a blitz off the bat and I don’t believe it matters much.

As well put a scout in front of general instead of major. The major is actually hard pressed to be defended here by only a general and many players don’t mind taking with their own general in that spot. Might as well make it not obvious that you potentially have a piece there, for example Losermaker did this with a marshal and scout in the wco vs overlord.
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#43 Fairway

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Posted 3 weeks ago

No way I lost on sorrow :)

 

It was on Doubt, but I think you actually tried on that account back then (this was in March/April?) and you were rated 844 ELO, and your flag wasn't on the front row, it was sealed :)


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#44 Fairway

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Posted 3 weeks ago

It’s a nice set up I think the spy would be better placed under the lake, simple swap with miner. It can make it more obvious but It protects against a blitz off the bat and I don’t believe it matters much.
 

Also I forgot, funny you mention this, but this was the original location when I first made the setup. The spy got scouted too much (probably because I'm a noob :)) so I changed it, and a side effect to the location change was also that it became less obvious. You are a player that is good at guarding your pieces though so having the spy at H4 would probably suit your playstyle better than mine.


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#45 KnightofPepsi

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Posted 3 weeks ago

I like your setup a lot Fairway. The most successful one I ever used was very similar in nature. The combination of the not-so-obvious marshal placement as well as using the major as bait is a nice one. :)

 

Thank you for sharing.


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#46 Lord Invader

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Posted 3 weeks ago

The setup I present is actually one mentioned by Dobby125 in a post on his blog (Best Winning Percentage Stratego Game Board Setup on Gravon).   He had analyzed all the archived game setups from Gravon and this setup (presumably used by one person) had the best winning percentage: 90.62% (87-9-1).
 
This setup seemed really unorthodox and I became intrigued.  I wanted to learn if this setup really was ingeniously superior, or if the player using it had just been lucky, so I decided to conduct a little experiment to find out.  First I downloaded the StraDoS2 game viewer and watched many of the games in which this mystery player used the setup to get a feel for how he played it.  Next, I created a new account, Lord Steamroller, which would only use this setup, and gave it a go myself.  
 
The results are mixed.  I quickly raced up the leaderboard to Silver Marshal, beating a handful of Gold and Platinum players along the way. It was very effective against Bronze and Silver players. But I've hit a ceiling at about 500 ELO and it’s become difficult to advance further.  This might be due to the setup, or my skill (my main account’s ELO is currently 511 and my personal best so far is 541).
 
In any case, I think this setup and related tactics make for a very interesting Setup of the Week, and I’d be interested to hear what top players think of it.
 
Here’s the setup (US numbering):
 
triangle.png
 
Key Features
 
Unorthodox Flag position.  The flag is located at J2 and is encased an a “sideways tripod”.  Often when an opponent discovers the bomb at J3 they assume the right flank is the weak side and focus their attack elsewhere, which is exactly what you want.  The flag’s position actually turns out to be very safe and difficult for opponents to solve. Opponents also often hit I2, expecting it to be a moveable piece defending a corner flag.  I actually played one game where an opponent had diffused both J3 and I2 and in the endgame their Marshal had a choice of attacking J2 or J1 and chose the J1 bomb which sealed the win for me.  If you are unlucky enough to have an opponent's Miner diffuse J3, try to attack it from I3 with a low-ranking piece.  If you have to take it with a Colonel to preserve the win, by all means do what you must, but you’ll arouse suspicion.  And if J3 is diffused, make sure to (nonchalantly) place a Major or Captain somewhere in column J to block Scouts.
 
Marshal, General, Colonel and Spy.  These pieces are all clustered around the flag. This is both a strength, initially, and a weakness, eventually, if you don’t fan them out to cover your board.  Opponents do not expect this positioning, but you can get pinned down by an opponent’s Marshal if he attacks early down the middle.
 
Scout mill in the center.  Scouts are clustered in the center and are used to probe the center early.
 
Bomb “pad” behind Left Lake. This is used, along with the Sergeant at D2 and the Miner at C2, to create a fake tripod.  The Major at E2, ostensibly guarding this tripod, reinforces this notion.
 
Miners.  Miners are all kept tucked safely away until needed in the endgame.
 
Tactics
 
Majors as “Super Scouts”.  The Majors have a crucial role to play in this setup.  They have two jobs:
  1. Sweep up as many of the opponent’s lower-ranking pieces (Captain on down) in the early game to gain a sizable material advantage in the endgame.  
  2. Quickly reveal the opponent’s Marshal and General.
The player who used this strategy on Gravon used the Majors at F4 and A3 very aggressively, almost recklessly to achieve that objective.  Almost.
 
Opening.  The player who used this setup on Gravon was very consistent: he’d move the Scout at E4 in front of the adjacent Major and then shoot him to F7.  If he found a Captain, he would rush up and kill it with the Major.  Because of the 2-Square Rule, there’s no way for the Captain to escape.  I do the same.
 
If the opponent goes first and opens in the center, the Gravon player would immediately shoot the Scout at A4; if a Captain is found there, he’d move the Major at A3 up to kill it, and once again it can’t escape.
 
Worst-case scenario, your first Major is killed by a Colonel. If so, be a little more cautious with the second Major attacker.  Ideally, however, you find a Marshal, which can tell you a lot about an opponent’s setup, because if he had to use the Marshal to attack the Major, the other adjacent piece is lower than a Colonel.  You can also usually suspect that the General and Spy are on the other side of the board.
 
If you do find a Colonel with the Major at F4, bluff the hell out of it and you'll almost certainly find the Marshal.
 
If your opening Scouts find lower-ranking pieces, you move the next-highest rank up to kill it and find out what’s protecting it.
 
Remain unmoved on the right flank, no matter what you opponent does, simulating a bombed-in side.  Even after I4 and J4 have been scouted, leave them unmoved, as it will be nearly impossible for an opponent to break through.
 
Captains.  If your Majors are finding and killing Captains, keep your Captains unmoved as fake bombs for as long as possible.  This turns out to be quite effective.  Depending on how the game plays out, however, you may have to press them into service to grab scouting Lieutenants.
 
Scouts.  Use your Scouts as bluffs in the early game to allow your General to release at the right time and to find the Marshal quickly if he comes down the center.  You may need to use them as Spy bluffs.  Bluffing with Scouts is less then ideal, but they're your best option in the early game with this setup.
 
Two eyes for an eye.  After your initial attack, it’s important to try to grab at least one piece before trading off.  For example, if your Major in the center finds the opponent’s General, advance yours, and try to capture at least one other piece and then trade.  Keep doing this, especially if your Majors have gained a material advantage initially.  Do not, however, trade off Marshals, Generals, and Colonels before you reduce your deficit in Majors to one.
 
Inherent material advantage.  If things work according to plan, you should enter the midgame up both a couple Captains and a couple Lieutenants.  An advantage in Lieutenants is inherent in this setup, because yours are kept towards the backfield.  This advantage is crucial to winning the game.  
 
Advantages
  • The flag placement is a big advantage.  It’s unexpected, and because it looks like a weak side, opponents will usually not bother pushing through in the early game.
  • The right flank is impenetrable to a Marshal blitz.  Your Colonel can repel an initial incursion by attacking I4.  After that, by sliding your Marshal to I3 neither a Marshal nor a General can get past.  
  • The fake tripod on the left will trip up many opponents.  Also, in the endgame, if C2, D2 and E2 are open opponents will sometimes attack the bombs, thinking there can’t be three of them all in a row.
Disadvantages
  • The most obvious disadvantage is that the left flank is very weak against a Marshal blitz.  In that situation, the best you can do is to use a Spy bluff and move your General to the center to defend while you open up the right where you’ll probably have superior ranks.
  • Marshals attacking in the center can pin down your whole setup while an opponent’s General goes to work gutting you.  Your Marshal is not positioned to defend.
  • Miners can sneak down your right flank in the endgame and you’ll be in trouble unless you station a piece to defend, which can dilute the strength of your endgame attack.
  • Bluffing is difficult b/c Lieutenants are not readily available and you have to rely mostly on Scouts.
There you have it.  It’s actually a fun setup to play, though I'm not sure you'd want to use it to win the world championship.  I’d be really interested to hear what comments you might have. 

Edited by Lord Invader, 3 weeks ago.

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#47 Sorrow

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Posted 3 weeks ago

 

The setup I present is actually one mentioned by Dobby125 in a post on his blog (Best Winning Percentage Stratego Game Board Setup on Gravon).   He had analyzed all the archived game setups from Gravon and this setup (presumably used by one person) had the best winning percentage: 90.62% (87-9-1).
 
In any case, I think this setup and related tactics make for a very interesting Setup of the Week, and I’d be interested to hear what top players think of it.
 
Here’s the setup (US numbering):
 
triangle.png
 

Hi this is actually a pretty near replica of a set up I used to use with the flag tripod at "i1" instead. I was able to get a really good streak on Sorrow with it even beating Overlord. 

 

I think the unexpected flag spot is not worth the pieces that are needed to sustain that bluff. 

In a sense you have a captain sergeant and colonel to play with in the opening which is a pretty common theme but it is hard to hide and it will get pressured unless you're playing a very passive player. Once these pieces get exchanged you're under immense pressure that will hurt your development on other lanes to which your opponent will have better pieces situated for an attack to your defense or bluffs. 

 

The marshal would be 10x better off somewhere else since it is effectively worthless in this spot. To have a marshal and spy defending the flag and a colonel for the whole game is a tough situation that can easily be avoided by simply lowering the flag to a classic Vincent de boar spot "I1". 

All in all the rest of the set up is quite nice, They're many bluffs that are able to be made which leads to a pleasant game for both sides.


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#48 tobermoryx

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Posted 3 weeks ago

That setup looks awful to me. It's curious that it had the highest win % on gravon. I've never been a member of gravon but I read on their forum complaints that some players would build big win % by refusing to play the top players. I would suspect that here.

I think most players would do enough probing of 'the weak side' to establish it was as presented. As soon as you find a Colonel (which would be pretty quickly) you are gonna be curious about what else is there. As soon as it becomes clear the Marshal is there and staying there (as he'd have to ) no one is going to be interested in fake bomb tripods elsewhere.
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#49 Lord Invader

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Posted 3 weeks ago

That setup looks awful to me. It's curious that it had the highest win % on gravon. I've never been a member of gravon but I read on their forum complaints that some players would build big win % by refusing to play the top players. I would suspect that here.

I think most players would do enough probing of 'the weak side' to establish it was as presented. As soon as you find a Colonel (which would be pretty quickly) you are gonna be curious about what else is there. As soon as it becomes clear the Marshal is there and staying there (as he'd have to ) no one is going to be interested in fake bomb tripods elsewhere.

You may be on to something.  As I reviewed the mystery player's games on Gravon, I looked for opponents that had strong setups and tactics, like high Silver Marshal blitzers, for example.  But most of this guy's opponents had setups that would be laughable: Marshals that stayed back to defend open flags, Colonels tied up behind their own bombs, and once an opponent had four bombs in a diagonal formation that effectively divided his setup in two.  Some of their tactics were pretty abominable too.  There were a few good games, and the mystery player himself played a really solid game, but for the most part it seemed like he was playing a bunch of noobs.


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#50 TemplateRex

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Posted 3 weeks ago



 

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I've written a couple of Python scripts to search the 51 thousand Gravon games. The above game is the only one where this type of setup has occurred. Red won (no surprise, given the 3 bombed in blue sergeants). Look for classic-2006.7-4882.xml


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#51 TemplateRex

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Posted 3 weeks ago

You may be on to something.  As I reviewed the mystery player's games on Gravon, I looked for opponents that had strong setups and tactics, like high Silver Marshal blitzers, for example.  But most of this guy's opponents had setups that would be laughable: Marshals that stayed back to defend open flags, Colonels tied up behind their own bombs, and once an opponent had four bombs in a diagonal formation that effectively divided his setup in two.  Some of their tactics were pretty abominable too.  There were a few good games, and the mystery player himself played a really solid game, but for the most part it seemed like he was playing a bunch of noobs.

 

Just look at the games that he lost: there are quite a few memory errors and also basic two squares rule errors. He does know how to play with information advantage, but I doubt he would be a platinum marshall here.


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#52 TemplateRex

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Posted 3 weeks ago

The marshal would be 10x better off somewhere else since it is effectively worthless in this spot. To have a marshal and spy defending the flag and a colonel for the whole game is a tough situation that can easily be avoided by simply lowering the flag to a classic Vincent de boar spot "I1". 

All in all the rest of the set up is quite nice, They're many bluffs that are able to be made which leads to a pleasant game for both sides.

 

I guess you are referring to Setup 5 in appendix D of Vincent de Boer's thesis? (that's the only one where he as a bombed in flag on I1 at least). I just did a search of all 6 of his setups on Gravon. It didn't result in what I expected. The thesis was published in 2007, and there are no games prior to that using one of the 6 setups. However, in 2014-2015, there are 50 games, mostly with Setups 1 and 2, and the W/L/D score is 18/31/1. That's right, some joker managed to lose 31 out of 50 games. So it just shows that the Gravon games must be interpreted with care.


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#53 Don_Homer

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Posted 3 weeks ago

I've written a couple of Python scripts to search the 51 thousand Gravon games. The above game is the only one where this type of setup has occurred. Red won (no surprise, given the 3 bombed in blue sergeants). Look for classic-2006.7-4882.xml

Just for the information guys. At gravon you can click something like ''this game might be downloaded''. If you play unranked without a registered account I think you can not turn it off. Most ranked games are without this option (most players unvink it). This probably explains the low level games you are seeing. 


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#54 TemplateRex

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Posted 3 weeks ago

Just for the information guys. At gravon you can click something like ''this game might be downloaded''. If you play unranked without a registered account I think you can not turn it off. Most ranked games are without this option (most players unvink it). This probably explains the low level games you are seeing. 

 

Later this summer I will publish some more stuff about Gravon games. I found a set of 40 Gravon games on a poker forum that were annotated with Gravon nicknames, and these Gravon nicknames are not hard to relate to actual real life players if you browse the Gravon forums a bit :) I need a bit of time to actually match the setups of these 40 annotated games to the 51K anonymous games but then I will hopefully have a decent database of high quality games. (there were several Top-3 live WC names, including 2 former world champions).


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#55 Lord Invader

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Posted 3 weeks ago

Later this summer I will publish some more stuff about Gravon games. I found a set of 40 Gravon games on a poker forum that were annotated with Gravon nicknames, and these Gravon nicknames are not hard to relate to actual real life players if you browse the Gravon forums a bit :) I need a bit of time to actually match the setups of these 40 annotated games to the 51K anonymous games but then I will hopefully have a decent database of high quality games. (there were several Top-3 live WC names, including 2 former world champions).

Please keep me in the loop.  I'd like to see these games.



#56 Dobby125

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Posted 3 weeks ago

That player with that setup was really good.  He’s a solid player.   I think he’d be a top 150 player here.   I think most beginners should watch his games to learn how to play from behind.  I based my Major attack series partly on the way he played and the way ManningtoCruz played me in 1 game several years ago.

 

The player does most things very well.  I like that he’s an aggressive player.  He understands the value of information vs captured pieces.  He’s an excellent player when he falls behind.  In most games he’s down at least 2 Majors or a Colonel and Major.  He’s great at swapping 2 for 1 with pieces.  He almost always remembers a piece that has moved or has been revealed.  He moves only the pieces he needs to move.  He’s an excellent board reader and that helps him attack and lotto very effectively when he needs to.  He’s an excellent counter attacker.   He’s good at seeing traps at long distances.  Doesn’t miss many trapping opportunities.  The thing that impresses me the most is he almost always moves the Marshal at the exact right time.  And it fools his opponents a lot of the time. 

He usually attacks aggressively in the center and left side at the start of games.  I think it confuses many players that his overloaded side is his weak side.  The flag side then doesn’t get too much play.  He usually goes down 1 or 2 Majors at the start, but tries to get 2 or more pieces and information for his Majors.  At the end of most games, he’s usually up a lot of smaller pieces (mostly Captains, Lieutenants and Miners and down a Major).

 

He does not have many flaws.  I think he uses too many Scouts too early and has to rely on his board reading skills late in the game.  When his Marshal gets revealed early, he doesn’t play as well.  It's hard to comeback when you are down 2 Majors or more when your Marshal gets revealed.  He’s very good at lottoing, when he doesn’t have to.  When he’s forced to lotto, he’s not as lucky.   I also think he could play better defense when he’s finally ahead in the late game.  

 

His winning percentage is excellent.  He did play some bad players and won some easy games to pad stats.   Some opponents were AWFUL.  There were a lot of bad players playing then.  People can watch over 20,000 of the games on UltraStratego.com when they’re bored.  Not many of those games are rated 3, 4 or 5 stars by the viewers.  I don’t think the overall level of online play in 2005/2006 was as strong as it is today.  A lot of his games were tough challenges though.  If you watch at least 50 of his games, you should appreciate his overall play.  I have no idea if he was one of the top players on Gravon at that time, but he was a very good player.  Most of his losses were not that bad either.  2 or 3 times he quit after only a few moves.  Maybe the boss entered the office. Lol.   I couple of times he lost to a blitzer and lucky lottoer.  He also tends to lose if his Marshal gets revealed very early in the game.  It’s too bad they kept the names of players off of the Gravon archive games.  It would be nice to know who that player was.

 

What’s interesting is that flag setup won him a few games because it was so unusual.  Stratego Bob played the same Flag position (but flipped sides).  He too, was fairly successful playing that flag position setup.  I believe he setup the rest of the pieces differently.  Stratego Bob won a lot of close late games because the flag was in a weird spot.  It confused his opponents. Players would hit his bombs on B2 and A1 a lot in the end game.   Stratego Bob stop playing the flag setup because it appeared that some players knew where his flag was located from either alias scouting or by watching his videos on youtube.  It’s a hard spot to defend if they know your flag is there at the start of the game.

 

I never tried this setup.  I just never liked the flag position.  Thought it was too hard to defend.  But I love how he attacks at the start with his Majors.


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#57 Lord Invader

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Posted 3 weeks ago

That player with that setup was really good.  He’s a solid player.   I think he’d be a top 150 player here.   I think most beginners should watch his games to learn how to play from behind.  I based my Major attack series partly on the way he played and the way ManningtoCruz played me in 1 game several years ago.

 

Dobby, after playing 100+ games with this setup, I have to say I think his success has more to do with the quality of his opponents (or lack thereof) and a little luck rather than excellence on his part.  I would say he's solid, but I don't think he'd be near the top 150.  

 

I don't consider myself a great player, but solid low Gold.  And I found it very difficult to overcome a 2 Major deficit if your opponent's Majors remain hidden after the opening exchanges.  Once that happens - against good players - they'll just wait you out until their Majors rule the board, scouting carefully until they find your Marshal and General.  If a good opponent finds your Marshal relatively early you're in big trouble, and you're also in trouble if you don't find and kill at least one Major relatively quickly.  Finally, if your Majors and opening game don't build up a sizeable advantage it'll be very tough to make up the loss.

 

One thing I do like about this setup is it's certainly exciting to play.  You delight in seeing your opponents fall into the many tricks and traps, and it's great to see a Marshal blitzer get destroyed coming down the right (in one game an opponent brought both his Marshal and General down the right, and I spied his Marsh and "s'Marshed" his Gen on consecutive moves).  It's also exciting having Miners and Colonels attack your (opened) flag side in the endgame and seeing them guess wrong about the bombs.

 

It's a great setup if you're an adrenaline junkie.  :D


Edited by Lord Invader, 3 weeks ago.

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