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Public Discussion on Increased Penalties for DC


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#41 Don_Homer

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 03:34 PM

DH, what do you think?

Simple DC: First: Warning letter Second time: 10 points deduction Third time 50 points deduction and every time onward -50 points.
SR: Warning letter +10 points Seond time: 50 points Third time: Rating reset (It should be proven that is is not a connection problem and someone is just logging back in to play the game). And onward rating reset.
ATW: Warning letter + 20 points Second time: 50 points Third time: Rating reset and onward rating reset.


Edited by Don_Homer, 02 February 2019 - 03:36 PM.

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#42 Don_Homer

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 03:55 PM

Simple DC: First: Warning letter Second time: 10 points deduction Third time 50 points deduction and every time onward -50 points.
SR: Warning letter +10 points Seond time: 50 points Third time: Rating reset (It should be proven that is is not a connection problem and someone is just logging back in to play the game). And onward rating reset.
ATW: Warning letter + 20 points Second time: 50 points Third time: Rating reset and onward rating reset.

Forget about the ''one week off'' penalty. So this should be the last measurement I think for SR and ATW. And maybe make it longer when people wont learn.


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#43 Nortrom

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 04:41 PM

This would require record keeping.


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#44 GaryLShelton

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 06:41 AM

A player who loses to a sneaky rejoin is like this goalkeeper

 

Yes, this is funny.   But your nonchalance about the unsportsmanlike 2:30 waiting that is forced upon you by your opponent is not the rule, I daresay.  Most persons are bothered by this, albeit to different degrees.  Sure, if you don't mind waiting you should never get caught like your unfortunate soccer goalie.  But the SR penalty is applied for those who ARE bothered by the 2:30 waiting and have experienced the unfortunate goalie's lapse in attention.  Should we interfere with such stupidity?  Maybe not.  I could see that argument. As an old country doctor used to say, "There's no pill for ignorance."  

 

Nevertheless, the current MT sentiment is that Sneaky Rejoins are a very unsportsmanlike thing to do and we will hammer them.



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#45 josephwhite

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 06:12 AM

One thing that is missing from this discussion is what the fruit has been from the current disconnect policy. It takes time to post and time to keep records for the moderators. Has the past policy made any changes in behaviour? One would need to keep records to determine this fully, but there may be anecdotal evidence. Otherwise, disconnectors are doubly succeeding - wasting our time in the game and on the forum. What I mean by succeeding is either:

  1. People stop doing this practice because of the penalties
  2. People don't do it in the first place (harder to measure, except possibly by number of reports of this)
  3. People are penalised to the extent that we don't have to deal with them anymore (e.g. reset account will take quite a while to get back to the level to affect most of the people on the forum). Also, this is a form of revenge - they waste our time, we waste their time by having to go and play low ranked players for quite a few hours before they are at a level to challenge us again.

 

My concern is less with the person who disconnects once or rarely, but the ones who do this repeatedly to be a jerk. For example, one guy (Airmail, Eniak, thesi, Toreva, ithi, Poppins and possibly Fiddle, Crisp, oikog, Barrel) keeps creating new accounts and does this to be a jerk - I don't think he cares about ranking. As long as we can't stop him based on IP address or something similar, continuously resetting his account will at least ensure that he has to spend the time at low ranks before he can annoy us again.

 

Another issue with point deductions is that it means that people are playing a person at higher skill who has a lower rating. E.g. if you are 600 and someone is down to 400 due to 200 worth of disconnect penalties, instead of being equal on a win or loss, you will lose much more on a loss or gain much less on a win. At least if the person's account is reset, it will take him a while before he will even be matched with you.

 

Therefore, I would propose full reset after 3 disconnects and don't even bother with the point deductions. Alternatively, of the options listed, I would go with 3 or 4.


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#46 GaryLShelton

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:29 PM

I think, unfortunately, disconnecters, like the proverbial poor, will always be with us. Still, the reset penalty is appealing to me after a certain point. Two questions:

1) Would you feel that a reset is better than the simple ELO to 100 penalty?

2) Would you feel the reset should come after more 50 point dings? Say, 5 or 6?

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#47 josephwhite

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 09:45 PM

I think, unfortunately, disconnecters, like the proverbial poor, will always be with us. Still, the reset penalty is appealing to me after a certain point. Two questions:

1) Would you feel that a reset is better than the simple ELO to 100 penalty?

2) Would you feel the reset should come after more 50 point dings? Say, 5 or 6?

 

As mentioned above, can't we reset accounts after 3 disconnections and not even bother with 50 point deductions. You could give a warning after the first offense and then just reset after the 3rd offense. I think it would save both the mods and the admins a lot of time and be much more effective. I'm tired of reporting the same people over and over again and then getting disadvantaged in playing them at a rating that is below their skill level. At least by resetting, it will take them quite a while to build up again, so it will be timewasting revenge.


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#48 TheOptician

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 09:56 PM

As mentioned above, can't we reset accounts after 3 disconnections and not even bother with 50 point deductions. You could give a warning after the first offense and then just reset after the 3rd offense. I think it would save both the mods and the admins a lot of time and be much more effective. I'm tired of reporting the same people over and over again and then getting disadvantaged in playing them at a rating that is below their skill level. At least by resetting, it will take them quite a while to build up again, so it will be timewasting revenge.

 

Bang on.



#49 17761776

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 11:44 PM

I wouldn't apply any penalties at all.

Players disconnecting has never bothered me in the slightest.

 In my opinion, these disconnectors should be warned, then 20 points should be removed and added to the victim's account. Cheaters should be permanently banned after the 1st offense. Cheating clearly has no place in Stratego.


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#50 Fairway

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 11:50 PM

 In my opinion, these disconnectors should be warned, then 20 points should be removed and added to the victim's account. Cheaters should be permanently banned after the 1st offense. Cheating clearly has no place in Stratego.

Disconnectors are already punished with a 50-point penalty if proper evidence is brought against them.


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#51 17761776

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 12:02 AM

Disconnectors are already punished with a 50-point penalty if proper evidence is brought against them.

 Oh is this topic already over? My apologies


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#52 Fairway

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 12:09 AM

 Oh is this topic already over? My apologies

Not, not at all. You're fine. I was simply informing you of the current penalty in case you were unaware. This thread is to discuss a possible change in the current penalty.


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#53 GaryLShelton

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 01:53 AM

As mentioned above, can't we reset accounts after 3 disconnections and not even bother with 50 point deductions. You could give a warning after the first offense and then just reset after the 3rd offense. I think it would save both the mods and the admins a lot of time and be much more effective. I'm tired of reporting the same people over and over again and then getting disadvantaged in playing them at a rating that is below their skill level. At least by resetting, it will take them quite a while to build up again, so it will be timewasting revenge.

 

 

I personally am for a stiffer penalty than the current 50 point per event ding.  But I disagree mildly with you about the benefit seen by the 50 point dings.  For the people who do it once, it sticks with them that they lost 50 points. For the repeat offenders it does not, clearly, but if they keep getting hit you should eventually not see them in the computer's matchup process.  To speed up the process is something you are talking about and I agree, though I would still state that we should hammer on the 5th event, not the 3rd.  And I would give it every time that person commits the offense again, until sunset erases the penalties.  The bad guys are going to get reported 5 times.  Dinging severely on 3 is going to catch a lot more innocents in the process.  

 

Nortrom has expressed concern over the amount of work keeping track of the number of offenses would mean, but I believe it's worth trying myself.  The search ability in the forum works well enough, and I think by the time offenders are at 5, we're going to know them anyway.

 

To explain the difference between a "reset" and an "ELO to 100" penalty, the former includes the latter but also a zero-ing out of the w/l stats as well.  So a reset is a stiffer penalty than ELO to 100 and will bother those who may not care about ELO but care about their win percentage and number of victories.

 

The trouble is, there are people who don't want DC penalties increased in the slightest, and there are others who, in fact, want no penalty at all.  



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#54 scottrussia

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 05:15 AM

Gary,

 

IMO, the efforts to combat abusive language/behavior on the site has been pretty successful.  Occasionally I see nonsense from someone in the chat box but its much less of an occurance than it was several years ago.

 

Likewise, the efforts to combat disconnecting hasn't been successful.  In fact, I experience more disconnecting now than a few years ago.  If there was an automated way that the site alerted moderators to disconnecting - you'd find yourself overwhelmed.  I'm typing this message while I'm waiting for the clock to wind down (probably to about 20 seconds) and then the disconnect will happen.  5 games in a row this morning.  I can't see that its worth putting any more effort into this.  As I posted elsewhere its too much work to report these folks.  There are players on this site that take the entire setup time EVERY time I play them.  Should they lose... its let the clock run down and disconnect EVERY time.  Unless your prepared to cancel their accounts after 1 warning then the behavior will continue.

 

Since we all know there will be no button to automate the reporting process, I'd suggest simply dropping the effort - continue to handle cases of abuse and free up a lot of time for those that volunteer as moderators.


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#55 josephwhite

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 07:14 AM

Gary,

 

Not that many people are reporting disconnectors, as its quite an effort. Therefore, it takes a while for active disconnectors to even get 3 strikes, let alone 5. What could be done is allow a grace period of a week or so, as it is possible that people could disconnect multiple times in the same day, not knowing that it is an issue and then get reset before they were even warned. However, if the rule is 3 disconnects in over a week period, the person would have had plenty of time to be warned and change behaviour.

 

I think that by taking out the 50 point deductions, you will reduce a lot of admin time (for mods and admins), which will allow you to focus on keeping tabs on how many people have disconnected/wasted time.

 

I'm not convinced that the current policy has deterred people much, but I do think it will be a deterrent when people get reset. Even if one doesn't care about ELO or win/loss, it will mean that they will have to spend many hours playing 100-300 ranked players before they can be a nuisance at higher levels again. Therefore, it is the ultimate time-wasting revenge.


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#56 Jesus_saves

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 08:47 AM

I like the idea of giving these time wasters a time wasting revenge, good point Joseph.
and reporting of these guys should be possible by all who take part in tournaments without these time anoying pictures....


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#57 TemplateRex

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 11:46 AM

I really enjoy it when someone disconnects. I especially enjoy the disconnectors who reconnect in the hope I have clicked away my browser window. I take 30 seconds of my own time and then I move. Usually they resign immediately then. To me, it's the ultimate reward of having thoroughly frustrated your opponent. I would never report someone for it.


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#58 GaryLShelton

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 04:25 PM

My point about the diversity of opinions has just been confirmed. In the immediate 4 preceding posts we see two people who want disconnecters punished and two who do not, with shades of gray on top of that.

I know reporting things takes time. Unfortunately there's no other way. Do we give up until Jumbo presents us an automated option? Do we stop because there's really no offense here, as TR feels?

I personally am more in the Joe camp and so want to give kudos to all who have reported disconnecters. It isn't exactly easy.

Are there more disconnecters than will ever be punished? Probably. But let's don't quit because of that.

josephwhite, we have to ask admin to make even the warnings to players, so tacking on a 50 point penalty at that time isn't much more work for the admin. Might as well ding them 50 points to make it stick. Besides, there are all sorts of reasons someone would not receive the warning letter admin sends out. They're going to see that point decrease. If they're honest, that is all it will take.

scottrussia, you'd probably find yourself in far less discourteous company if you allowed your rank to improve back to platinum again. Your forum avatar shows mid bronze today. The goal of our punishments of these guys is to send them down to you, especially if a reset option is adopted. Get back up to where you can again and I'm sure things will improve.


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#59 GaryLShelton

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 04:45 PM

josephwhite, if we pass one, once a player reaches the severe penalty of reset he will continue to receive that same penalty every time he DC's. If an alias connection can be proven, then that alias could be reset as well. We'll make these guys all Sisyphus's.

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#60 scottrussia

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 05:38 PM

Gary,

To be clear.  I'm totally in favor of punishment for disconnecting and time wasting.  What I'm saying is given the results of the current effort (and the amount of effort and time required of those being disconnected on), that the effort should simply be suspended unless your willing to start cancelling accounts.

 

If the site owners ever decide to revisit the game, then I'd hope that they would provide some remedies that require less work for players.  I'd certainly click on a button that sent a report of a disconnect to an administrator.  But I realize that its not likely to happen.  

 

But given that I am not one of the people that spends the time and effort to report, I think the opinion of those that do should carry more weight.


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