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Double Chase Puzzle


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#1 TheOptician

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 08:00 PM

https://imgur.com/W1ss7Fv
https://i.imgur.com/6ntTkub.jpg
giagulas


I would like to elaborate on my case, fully aware that I have a 0% chance of getting a guilty verdict.

Firstly let me say that giagulas is a fair opponent - I have played him many times and have nothing against him whatsoever. As soon as I got into the position indicated by the first screenshot - he offered me the tie. This is because he knew that he could double chase to stop me winning - and importantly - he has no idea (like the majority of players) that double chasing is not allowed (on the forum). So as far as he knows he has done nothing wrong (and is probably thinking what a clown this optician guy is for not accepting the tie when he couldn’t win).

Now as it happens I messed up the second screenshot - it didn’t show the clock. And I only remembered to take the screenshot after I had offered the tie (thus obscuring the board).

So how does MT know that I was chased for 10 minutes? They don’t. For all they know I offered the tie immediately.

So what is my case?

Well, I am arguing that in the situation as presented in the first screenshot - that barring a monumental misclick - giagulas HAD to double chase to avoid defeat.

If Template Rex would like to do a puzzle which asks how giagulas can draw without double chasing, Id like to see that solution.

And in the situation where this is the case - why is any number of seconds or minutes of chasing necessary?

Edit: wrong thread, please hide.

Edited by GaryLShelton, 27 January 2019 - 09:26 AM.
Post moved from the reporting thread to this topic


#2 TheOptician

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 08:18 PM

https://imgur.com/W1ss7Fv

It is Green to play.

How does Blue tie the game without Double Chasing?

Variant 1. The blue piece in the centre lane doesn’t have the two square advantage on the green miner in the centre lane (ie the miner in the centre lane does not need to retreat)

Variant 2. The blue piece in the centre lane does have the two square advantage on the green miner in the centre lane (ie the miner in the centre lane must retreat)

Question to MT:

In the situation where Player 1 can avoid defeat only by double chasing (or by a monumental misclick from Players 2) - why is any number of seconds or minutes of chasing necessary to award the victory to Player 2?

(Note that the question is NOT ‘Should Player 1 be convicted of Double Chasing?’)

#3 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 10:47 PM

for variant 1 blue can break the double chase if, when green miner in center lane is on F6 and blue piece on E7, instead of double chasing blue moves E7-E8, if green moves F6-F7 then blue E8-E9, green F7-F8 then blue comes back E9-E8 etc... In such situation it is not double chasing but continuous chasing which means outcome of the game is a draw instead of victory for green.

In such situation green should try to force blue into a real double chase by bringing his center lane miner on the left lane in diagonal of the blue piece. ... note that this is the puzzle: can green force a double chasing situation in order to get a victory?

 

for variant 2 if miner is forced to retreat then there is no double chase, only continuous chase, game is a draw


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#4 TemplateRex

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 11:58 PM

for variant 1 blue can break the double chase if, when green miner in center lane is on F6 and blue piece on E7, instead of double chasing blue moves E7-E8, if green moves F6-F7 then blue E8-E9, green F7-F8 then blue comes back E9-E8 etc... In such situation it is not double chasing but continuous chasing which means outcome of the game is a draw instead of victory for green.
In such situation green should try to force blue into a real double chase by bringing his center lane miner on the left lane in diagonal of the blue piece. ... note that this is the puzzle: can green force a double chasing situation in order to get a victory?
 
for variant 2 if miner is forced to retreat then there is no double chase, only continuous chase, game is a draw


Your Variant 1: if green to move in the diagram goes 1. e6-f6 e7-e8 2. f6-f7 e8-e9 then not 3. f7-f8? but 3. f7-e7! and green wins, no?

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#5 GaryLShelton

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 05:35 AM

https://imgur.com/W1ss7Fv
It is Green to play.
How does Blue tie the game without Double Chasing?

It's not possible. The only option for blue in the situation as presented is to double chase..

Question to MT:
In the situation where Player 1 can avoid defeat only by double chasing (or by a monumental misclick from Players 2) - why is any number of seconds or minutes of chasing necessary to award the victory to Player 2?
(Note that the question is NOT ‘Should Player 1 be convicted of Double Chasing?’)

.
The answer is, of course, to allow for time to the opponent to recognize the situation and accept it. It's the same for clear draws. They aren't upheld the second they come into existence but rather after a certain time for the draw refuser to accept the draw in a civil manner. The times are arguably arbitrary but the current time limits of 5 minutes for clear draws and 10 for no-progress ones have served the community well for a long time now.



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Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#6 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 07:28 AM

Your Variant 1: if green to move in the diagram goes 1. e6-f6 e7-e8 2. f6-f7 e8-e9 then not 3. f7-f8? but 3. f7-e7! and green wins, no?


Then blue moves e9-e8 and then what does green?... Continue e7-d7?... Once in b7 green is forced to retreat to b6 b5 etc... Moves e7-f7? Blue has 2 square advantage... So how does green win?
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#7 TemplateRex

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 07:39 AM

Then blue moves e9-e8 and then what does green?... Continue e7-d7?... Once in b7 green is forced to retreat to b6 b5 etc... Moves e7-f7? Blue has 2 square advantage... So how does green win?


Green has 3 squares on the 7th row so 2 squares advantage is irrelevant. After 3. f7-e7 e9-e8 4. e7-d7 e8-d8 5. d7-c7 d8-c8 6. c7-d7 c8-d8 7. d7-e7 and the More Squares Rule prohibits 7... d8-e8 because blue would repeat a position during a continuous chase.
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#8 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 06:34 PM

right this would only shift the double chasing on the left but not change anything to the problem. But if when miner is on f6 blue moves e7-d7 and then comes back to e7 he has a continuous chasing of green miner with interuption of the threatening, so this is no double chase and game is a draw.


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#9 GaryLShelton

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 07:32 PM

...In such situation it is not double chasing but continuous chasing which means outcome of the game is a draw instead of victory for green.
In such situation green should try to force blue into a real double chase by bringing his center lane miner on the left lane in diagonal of the blue piece. ... note that this is the puzzle: can green force a double chasing situation in order to get a victory?

.
Napoleon 1er, the semantical difference you try to make between a double chase and a continuous chase is not found in the ISF rules. In fact, nowhere do the ISF rules even mention the words "double chase". In Article 11 "The More Squares Rule" they do define the term "continuous chase". In this term they cover what would be described as both single and double chasing but they don't specifically mention either one.

Whether there are two alternating 2x2 single chases where the chasee has the 2S advantage in each leg, or an alternating 2x2 box single chase (chasee has 2S advantage) with another single chase ranging over 3 or more squares (where the chasing piece in that leg will clearly have to stop at some point), the result will be the same. The double chaser will lose.
 

11.3
Definitions:
continuous chase: the same player is non-stop
threatening one or more pieces of his
opponent that is/are evading the threatening
moves.
chasing move: a move in a continuous chase
that threatens an opponent‟s piece that was
evading during the continuous chase.


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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#10 GaryLShelton

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 07:43 PM

for variant 1 blue can break the double chase if, when green miner in center lane is on F6 and blue piece on E7, instead of double chasing blue moves E7-E8, if green moves F6-F7 then blue E8-E9, green F7-F8 then blue comes back E9-E8 etc... In such situation it is not double chasing but continuous chasing which means outcome of the game is a draw instead of victory for green.
In such situation green should try to force blue into a real double chase by bringing his center lane miner on the left lane in diagonal of the blue piece. ... note that this is the puzzle: can green force a double chasing situation in order to get a victory?
or variant 2 if miner is forced to retreat then there is no double chase, only continu

.
If blue does what you say, then a single chase ranging over three squares will ensue as blue moves from E9 to E8 and makes its first threatening move, green then evades from F8 to F7, blue chases from E8 to E7, green evades again from F7 to F6, blue pursues from E7 to E6, green changes direction and moves back from F6 to F7, blue follows from E6 to E7, green then goes from F7 to F8, where blue is blocked from moving from E7 to E8 by RBP*. Blue must move differently.

*On this site RBP will not kick in but on the 10th chasing move by blue in the 3 square range, HmmNess will kick in and blue will be stopped then. Same ending. Blue will be forced to make a non-chasing move.



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#11 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 09:45 PM

ok but read 2nd post, if blue moves e7-d7 and then comes back he is always having one non threatening move after each 2 chasing moves, so it is no double chase and the game outcome is a draw instead of a victory for green?


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#12 TemplateRex

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 09:53 PM

ok but read 2nd post, if blue moves e7-d7 and then comes back he is always having one non threatening move after each 2 chasing moves, so it is no double chase and the game outcome is a draw instead of a victory for green?

 

I don't follow. Could you play out the variation in my last post here? Once green reaches the 7th row, he has 3 squares horizontally so eventually blue is diagonal to both miners. Green to move in TheOptician's imgur diagram always wins. With blue to move, the 2nd green miner runs stays behind the lake for a draw. 


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#13 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 11:27 PM

I don't follow. Could you play out the variation in my last post here? Once green reaches the 7th row, he has 3 squares horizontally so eventually blue is diagonal to both miners. Green to move in TheOptician's imgur diagram always wins. With blue to move, the 2nd green miner runs stays behind the lake for a draw. 

in variant 1, when miner is on f6 and blue on e7 then blue can move e7-d7 instead of a threatening move, if miner moves f6-f7 then blue moves d7-e7, then if f7-f8 then e7-e8 and miner has to retreat to original position. Because it is not a double chase game outcome is a draw.

In your example, in case blue moves e8-e9 and miner f7-e7, e9-e8, e7-d7 then blue can move miner g9-g10 and double chase, game would end in a victory for green due to double chase. So it wrong for blue to move down to e9


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#14 TemplateRex

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 12:12 AM

in variant 1, when miner is on f6 and blue on e7 then blue can move e7-d7 instead of a threatening move, if miner moves f6-f7 then blue moves d7-e7, then if f7-f8 then e7-e8 and miner has to retreat to original position. Because it is not a double chase game outcome is a draw.
In your example, in case blue moves e8-e9 and miner f7-e7, e9-e8, e7-d7 then blue can move miner g9-g10 and double chase, game would end in a victory for green due to double chase. So it wrong for blue to move down to e9


I missed that variation with e7-d7 that you posted earlier. Nice find. Also green can’t move e5-e4-d4 and use the 3 squares d2-d3-d4 to force blue off the d-file since blue an always interpose a g9-g10-g9 shuffle. So looks like a draw indeed.

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#15 GaryLShelton

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 05:46 AM

in variant 1, when miner is on f6 and blue on e7 then blue can move e7-d7 instead of a threatening move, if miner moves f6-f7 then blue moves d7-e7, then if f7-f8 then e7-e8 and miner has to retreat to original position. Because it is not a double chase game outcome is a draw.

.
Hats off again, Napoleon. :)
Blue moving from e7 to d7 is a solid move. At this point green has only one chance to get the double chase that I can see and it totally depends on luck.

Green must move from f6 to f5. This move should bring blue back to e7 because he's curious. Then green moves to e5 and blue moves back to d7. Green moves to e4; blue to c7; then green turns the corner to D4 with blue moving to b7. Green to c4; blue to b6. Green to b4; blue to b5. It's now a bad scene for green.
At this point the only hope for green is to have the fortune of blue backing green up a row and then having blue chase green over the three squares a4-b4-c4 (green moving a3-b3-c3 because blue would then get blocked moving back to a4 by RBP. If that happened, there would be two chases in the game and it would be d/m chasing again.

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#16 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 08:14 AM

... So finally what is the official outcome of that game assuming TheOptician has video evidence and giagulas would make the e7-d7 non threatening move every 2 moves? Is it really a different outcome than if all giagulas moves would be threatening moves?
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#17 Nortrom

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 08:56 AM

The verdict was posted five days ago in the respective report thread/subforum.


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