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#21 Fks

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 04:44 AM

Stratego's popularity has been hurt greatly from the lack of streamers and content creators posting videos. Fortnite pays “Ninja” to play Fortnite for a reason. I personally found stratego.com from Maxroelofs youtube videos.

I feel as long as you mention your recording it should be able to be posted tournament and non tournament alike.

With live streaming it is a bit difficult to ask for permission so I am unsure with how to work that out. (I have never asked although certain players knew beforehand and I have told some after the game but have always deleted my live streams after it was done to not hurt my opponents that had no idea there set up was out there for people to see.
It’s obviously tough when people see how you play but I believe where at a time where we have a chance to raise Stratego up to an actual player base and that involves having content creators of all skill levels if not we could just stick to the same 40 guys in tournaments for 2019
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#22 GaryLShelton

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 08:00 AM

I don't get Gary's analogy: If a stratego game is the house then it is jointly owned by the two players, and either of them can let in anyone they like.

.
Although I agree that changing setups is essential and one YouTube posting is not going to end the world, that's not the point. tobermoryx, you well express the faulty logic of the freely posting side. This is not a public house. You do not have a right to my setups just because you play me. I own my setups; you own yours. My door to this 'house' is my door alone. It is not my opponent's. And mine is not his.

Why is it such a big deal, guys to ask for and get permission in BattleChat before posting a game? We're not talking about recording games; that will happen and there's nothing anyone can do. But if a video is to be posted or shared in any way, how many seconds does it take to type into BattleChat, "I'm recording our game. Do I have your permission to post it on YouTube or share it with my friends?" And then wait for a positive response. It takes nearly zilch time. How is this seen as:

1) a difficult thing to require? Basic English skills are all that's needed.

2) a huge impediment/hindrance to posting stratego videos and spreading the word of stratego?

Governments are instituted among men to protect life, liberty, and property. The rights to my own private setups (my property) should trump any desire for making it easier on video-ers to post them publicly. If we let videos go public without this one simple protection, we are not guarding the community well.
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#23 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 10:02 AM

Gary

The point is not whether it is easy to ask permission or not but who is the ultimate decision maker for deciding to post the video or not, is it the video maker or is it the other player?
Take example from real life, for example a soccer game. At begin of the game you see 2 teams of 11 players and from the positions on the field you can guess who is more defender and who is more attacker but only the teams know the tactic they will play and what will be the effective role of each player. This is like a "secret" part of the setup. Video are made and who makes the video has power for deciding to publish it or not. Then after the game trainers and specialists analyze the effective tactics of the teams to explain why they won or why they lost. This is then a lesson for improvement for future games, so that the whole soccer community is a level ahead than before. Secondly these videos contribute a lot to the promotion of the game. Without videos soccer would never be as popular as it is. If we really want to help Stratego getting more and more popular we have to make more and more videos.
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#24 Nortrom

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 10:34 AM

Soccer has mega contracts. If you pay me, say, € 1000 per game, you can publish all you want.


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#25 TheOptician

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 12:03 PM

There are a couple of assertions/assumptions floating around that I would question.

1. The producer of the video should be able to do what they want with their recorded game.

This is not a one-way street. As some have already said, filming your computer screen does not give you any rights to publish. You do not have the right to come into my house and film without my consent. I would be within my rights to confiscate your camera at the door. A virtual battlefield raises more complex issues concerning ownership, but there are two players (not just one) who have equal claim.

If one player does not want a particular set-up revealed to an unquantified and unknown audience, then they should have the option to opt-out of a published recording. Otherwise they are only getting one ‘use’ where they could have expected many uses.

As there is no ‘opt-out’ option available, then the next best thing is to be given notification of recording. This gives the opponent a chance to use a set-up that they do not mind being published.

2. Videos contribute to the promotion of Stratego.

Do they? What is the evidence for this? How many of us came across Stratego by finding a video online? Are we over-estimating the role that videos of matches plays in promotion?

———-

I would choose:

Permission to record must be asked for in the video (and no reply is considered as no objection)
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#26 KissMyCookie

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 01:54 PM

First of all I would like to thank you for opening this topic. Personally I'm in favor of option 3: posting video is allowed and no permission is required.

 

Is this because you made a video of a game you had with Nortrom, then you asked for permission to publish, and then it was denied? Didn't you make a post to Yellowhat, after he posted a match between playa1 and honjekapitein, asking if he had gotten permission to publish?

 

http://forum.strateg...go/#entry468075

 

With so much flip-flopping, I am really confused by your conflicting posts, Daniel.



#27 Yellowhat

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 02:12 PM

I'm in favor of #1.


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#28 GaryLShelton

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 03:05 PM

There's nothing confusing about Dan's posts, KMC. He simply wants the same rules applied to everyone. If you say he asked Nortrom to post their video, then I laud that fact instead of just publishing.

TheO, as I read your post I feel that you are calmly expressing yourself in your typical way, steadfastly marching down the road of logic. And as I roll with those wheels I feel you will arrive at the same conclusion as myself. According to your first comments/premise:
 

You do not have the right to come into my house and film without my consent. I would be within my rights to confiscate your camera at the door.

.
Taking this as foundational to your position, I would ask how can you arrive at the position that it's okay for a video to be published without permission after saying that permission should be required? The path you start on does not seem to allow for such a sharp turn in the road. How do you arrive at the destination you do? I feel almost wrecked in a ditch over this conclusion.

How do you balance "You do not have the right to come into my house and film without my permission." with a conclusion that says permission must only be requested but not necessarily responded to?

Can a non-response equate with the granting of permission? How many people don't chat, they don't even say 'gl'? And though we're just talking basic English, how many don't speak English as a first language and would find the matter too complicated for them, linguistically?  Or how many will just be confused by the question?

 

Should we just say "too bad, so sad, you had your chance to respond and say no" to these people? What kind of chance is that?

We do require all players to speak a modicum of English to arrange games in a tournament, that is true, but surely that cannot transfer to the opposing players here in this other issue. Their main burden shouldn't be to speak English in BattleChat but to play games civilly.

So I say again, permission not granted is not permission.



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#29 GaryLShelton

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 03:29 PM

Take example from real life, for example a soccer game. At begin of the game you see 2 teams of 11 players and from the positions on the field you can guess who is more defender and who is more attacker but only the teams know the tactic they will play and what will be the effective role of each player. This is like a "secret" part of the setup.

.
Dan, that's a nice try on twisting things up. 😄

Of course, strategy and smarts are not "secret" in the same sense piece setups in stratego are, or both players would show all their pieces before playing. Your soccer example matches with chess and a hundred other sports and games, yes, but not stratego.
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Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#30 Dobby125

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 04:10 PM

There are a couple of assertions/assumptions floating around that I would question.


2. Videos contribute to the promotion of Stratego.

Do they? What is the evidence for this? How many of us came across Stratego by finding a video online? Are we over-estimating the role that videos of matches plays in promotion?

 

 

Here are a few comments from my youtube channel:

 

I learned a lot! Thanks
Reply · 2 
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I just checked your channel and there a lot of stratego vids, nice! You earned a new subscriber.
Reply · 1 
photo.jpg
 
 
top marks Dobby for calling the pieces by their name so I can understand what you are talking about , others have a really bad habit of calling them 6 , 8 , 3 very irritating as we do not all use American numbering. Also good narration , you would be my favourite now
Reply · 2 
photo.jpg
 
 

 

where do I download this game?
Reply · 
 

 

Interesting matches man. Been watching a few :) Will most likely bring me back into the game again
Reply · 1 
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I hope you will do other stratego recording games like that, it's intructive
Reply · 1 
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This just helped me win a game. What video software are you using? I like the way it let's you go back moves. Mine doesn't do that.
Reply · 1 
 

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#31 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 06:10 PM

Theo,

 

As I wrote somewhere above, video shall of course not provide any private info such as name, address, picture, inside of the house etc... We agree on that privacy principle. Whoever violates this is legally liable for it. But a video form a stratego game is not at all private information nor personal data. The fact that you accept to play online indirectly prooves that you agree with the risks of online playing, one of these risks is to have a video of your game on youtube without your consent. So it is clear that the person who has the ultimate "power of decision" on the publishing or not of a video is the video maker, not the opponent. For friendly or ranked games there is nothing illegal doing it and nobody here has power to remove video from youtube unless the video maker himself.

Now for tournament games it is right that tournament rules prevail and if tournament rules say that video publishing is not allowed if the opponent objects to it then such rule has to be respected. My point is that this rule shall be changed because there is nothing illegal (if it is then please provide the law and the law clause that states it) in publishing video of online games on youtube, so who is TC to declare that these videos are not allowed?

 

Regarding the role of videos in promoting stratego I guess there is no doubt of it. Many times I'm matched with unknown players who write me in chat that they've seen my videos and this gives them an incentive to play online. Imagine that soccer games would not have been shown on TV . Do you really believe soccer would have become what it is without video/TV? WIth stratego we are very far from it of course but we shall all fight in that direction and promote the game as much as we can. Not only me, templaterex, dobby, Unladenswallow or Astros shall support option 3 but all stratego fans and TC and MT shall help for it! ... just join us :) !

 

1. The producer of the video should be able to do what they want with their recorded game.

This is not a one-way street. As some have already said, filming your computer screen does not give you any rights to publish. You do not have the right to come into my house and film without my consent. I would be within my rights to confiscate your camera at the door.


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#32 Yellowhat

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 06:37 PM

I think that the expansion of the stratego community is less important than protecting people's privacy and property inside it. What's more, enabling players to post every game they play won't attract that much extra players. You can watch hundreds of stratego games now if you want and that number is still growing. There are more than 20 stratego channels available. Stratego is being promoted on YouTube, you don't have to change the rules for it.


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#33 Fairway

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 06:52 PM

Personally, I'm in favor of option two. When I record my videos, I always ask them in battlechat if they approve of it. If I do not receive a response, then I upload it anyway: they didn't object, and too many people don't even look at battlechat in the first place. 

 

If anyone who, in game, did not respond to my battlechat request, but later objected to the video being uploaded, I would remove the video immediately.

 

#1 is not a good option, simply because too many people don't look at battlechat. And because a lot of people don't speak English. Oracle claims that less than 5% don't speak English, but you'd be surprised how many different language responses I've received after typing someone "gl".

 

#3 is a little extreme. It would definitely help the growth of the game, no doubt. But I'm not sure if its the best solution. I can respect someone if they ask me not to upload, but personally for me I would never refuse anybody who wants to upload a game with me.

 

 

Ask for videos' correlation with the popularity of stratego, just take silverhammer as an example. He's the most popular stratego streamer/uploader, and I'm sure his channel has brought multiple people to the game (just search the account called "bronzehammer"...). I personally will say that maxroelofs' videos brought me to this website. Uploading videos in general contributes to the player base of the site and the popularity of the game.


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#34 NTactical-Reboot

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 06:57 PM

In the Dutch volleyball league, some recently introduced rules apply:
A. On all levels both parties must explicitly consent to being recorded, otherwise recording the match is prohibited (even if one player does not consent). Note that this is more extreme than prohibiting publishing; as private sharing cannot be tracked nor regulated. This rule was a result of new EU privacy laws (just like that cookie wall).
B. Within the top leagues, i.e. international and the top 3 national leagues, recording the match is MANDATORY.

Note that as a result of both rules follows that if a player does not consent to be recorded, he/she cannot participate on top levels.

Just some food for thought. As for my personal opinion; I am not actively playing atm (just lurking the forum due to very limited time), but I naturally have a slight preference for not being recorded. This implies that I do not segregate between recording and publishing; as private shares cannot be controlled/regulated.
Since private recording and private sharing cannot be prevented, and videos *might be* beneficial to the popularity of Stratego, my vote goes to (3). If there could have been any form of actual control over this my vote would have gone to (2), but hey, we're on the internet here ^^.
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#35 TemplateRex

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 07:14 PM

In the Dutch volleyball league, some recently introduced rules apply:
A. On all levels both parties must explicitly consent to being recorded, otherwise recording the match is prohibited (even if one player does not consent). Note that this is more extreme than prohibiting publishing; as private sharing cannot be tracked nor regulated. This rule was a result of new EU privacy laws (just like that cookie wall).
B. Within the top leagues, i.e. international and the top 3 national leagues, recording the match is MANDATORY.

 

A is because images of persons is considered personal data subject to privacy laws. 

B is because of match-fixing and dispute concerns. 

 

A does not apply. But B does apply, e.g. the WCO encourages both players to record to settle disputes.

 

Regarding A: I don't think people have a legal right to holding their setups private once they have used them in a game. People want all kinds of things they don't have a legal right to. UEFA wanted to limit the number of foreign players to 3, but the Bosman ruling forced them to abandon this. 

 

If I play in a live Stratego tournament, I don't think anyone can forbid me to post a game analysis here or on a blog. If I play a game here, no one can forbid me to publish this. If a player would take me to court over publishing a game video, they would have to show damages. Good luck with that.

 

If I were to ever reach a playing level worthy of showing on YouTube, I'd do so without asking anyone's permission. However, as a matter of courtesy, I would notify future opponents of such recordings and publishing. Also, if a player insists, I would agree to keep his player id secret in a video or game analysis. But that's not an opponent's right, but merely a courtesy. 


Edited by TemplateRex, 29 December 2018 - 07:15 PM.

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I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#36 KissMyCookie

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 07:37 PM

There's nothing confusing about Dan's posts, KMC. He simply wants the same rules applied to everyone. If you say he asked Nortrom to post their video, then I laud that fact instead of just publishing.

 

You're wrong, Gary. Of course there is something confusing in Daniel's multiple posts.

 

In one post he questions whether Yellowhat got permission or not to publish a video–this would indicate that he is of a mind that requires videos may not be published unless the publisher is given permission.

 

Then, he states that he wants to support the platform that NO permission is necessary.

 

So which one is it? He wants it both ways, and thus I submit, his position IS confusing, because...he has taken to both sides of the coin.


Edited by KissMyCookie, 29 December 2018 - 07:38 PM.


#37 GaryLShelton

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 07:55 PM

Robert, how is the fact he questions Yellowhat posting a video and obtaining permission for that video the same as espousing that step of permission? He does not espouse it.  There is zero confusion on his position.  He just makes an observation of the posting of Yellowhat, who does espouse it, clearly.  I don't agree with Napoleon but I think what should apply for everyone in debates is the American ideal of "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."    


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#38 Napoleon 2ème

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 09:21 PM

HI guys

 

I'm for option numer 3, let me explain you why :

 

I know many players don't like to be recorded because then players can see how they play and can get an advantage, but it would also allow several players to come on the top and maybe make big changes in the leaderboard. Many players probably take notes of how their opponents were playing and even try to record their setups, so I don't see where is the difference with sharing the game himself because player A could explain to player B how player C plays and it wouldn't change.

 

It has been told that it would be a great promotion for the stratego game (online) and probably bring new players on the site. If I want to go on a place on holidays, I prefer to see what people think about that place, hotle, people, ... and see some pictures instead of going randomly and hoping to find a place I like.

 

Another point is that the game would be shared on youtube, so I don't see why the MT could allow or not someone to post a video there (without offense).

 

I also think that many people would be interested in seeing tournaments game especially from players who have won, maybe unexpected victories ect…

 

I think rule 3 should be applied, but we could add that the opponent can ask not to post the video before some time because he wants to use the setup again…. (maybe a player can ask that the video can be posted maximum 2 month later (?). In that case it would mean that a player who doesn't want to share many of his setups would have to create 6 setups per year which is pretty reasonable from my point of view.


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#39 tobermoryx

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 09:50 PM

 You do not have the right to come into my house and film without my consent. I would be within my rights to confiscate your camera at the door. A virtual battlefield raises more complex issues concerning ownership, but there are two players (not just one) who have equal claim. 

 

 

A better analogy is not an uninvited guest bringing a camera to your house, it would be your wife putting a video of your house on You Tube, as a person with just as much rights to do so as yourself.

 

In any case this 'my house' thing makes no sense. Effectively 2 people have agreed to go to a neutral venue and play a game. 



#40 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 10:14 PM

You're wrong, Gary. Of course there is something confusing in Daniel's multiple posts.

 

In one post he questions whether Yellowhat got permission or not to publish a video–this would indicate that he is of a mind that requires videos may not be published unless the publisher is given permission.

 

Then, he states that he wants to support the platform that NO permission is necessary.

 

So which one is it? He wants it both ways, and thus I submit, his position IS confusing, because...he has taken to both sides of the coin.

there is nothing confusing in asking Yellowhat if he got permission to publish the wco game hondjekapitein vs Playa1. First of all how is it Yellowhat to publish such game and not one of the 2 players? This may indicate that Yellowhat was present physically on the side of one of the 2 players during that game, possibly helping that player but of course there is no evidence of it. It would be good if Yellowhat clarifies that point for avoidance of doubts.

2nd point the rules are clear: during wco recording game is allowed but publishing requires authorization of the other player ... in that particular case Yellowhat needed authorization of both players and knowing Playa1 is not one who likes his games beeing published I believe my question was fair.

If you read again my posts above you will see that I'm clearly for option 3 but also clearly for having the tournament or wco rules beeing respected, there is no inconsistancy nor confusion in there, only for those who want to see such confusion.


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