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Public discussion: Video content rules


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#1 Nortrom

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 10:59 AM

Dear players,

 

Within the MT we have been discussing the topic of video sharing and requirements for permission. Our options vary between not requiring any permission and requiring explicit written consent... and everything in between.

 

Things we've thought about: 

1) posting videos publicly without express BattleChat permission is not allowed.
2) posting videos publicly where BattleChat permission is requested but no negative response is received is allowed.
3) posting videos publicly is allowed and no permission is needed.

 

What we would like to have here, is players stating their opinion about the matter. We kindly request players make one post explaining their own view on this topic, hopefully that'll give us some other insights that we hadn't thought of before. We heavily prefer reading several thoughts over players trying to convince each other, so please keep it to that.

 

Note that this would apply to all ranked/friendly games, but that tournament games (friendly game) may use different consent requirements, in such case, we'll follow the organizing party's requirement. Last but not least, this is about sharing video content, not recording.


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#2 Nortrom

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 11:06 AM

I'm personally in favor of the second option which reads "posting videos publicly where BattleChat permission is requested but no negative response is received is allowed.".

 

Posting without consent just doesn't feel right. There are plenty of players who have no objection, that's great, some do for various reasons.

 

Video content makers shouldn't feel too restricted by a video content rule. Explicit written consent would be quite a challenge. By asking, I feel the other has the option to respond. If choosing not to, for whatever reason, this player waives the opportunity to object. 

 

Of course a player later may ask his opponent to delete the video, but the MT should in that case not interfere.


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#3 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 12:37 PM

First of all I would like to thank you for opening this topic. Personally I'm in favor of option 3: posting video is allowed and no permission is required.
First of all as long as a video does not provide personal data such as person name, address, email or anything similar there is no legal reason to not allow it. An account name is not considered a personal data (otherwise Napoleon 1er would be my "personal" data ) . Second point : it is the producer of the video who shall have the right for final decision on what to do with the video, not his opponent. Like a journalist is making a video of a war in Syria, this same journalist (or his journal) has the final right to decide what to publish and what not, not the people in Syria. Third point: showing videos, specially of top notch players is a very good help/training for less skilled players. It helps promotion of Stratego. 4th point: showing videos of yourself playing is finally also a help for you to improve. As other people will discover your setups and play style it forces you to always invent something new to get better. I can personally witness that having people knowing my setups helps me a lot with continuous improvement.

Really hope there will be a great majority of people supporting this vision so that MT will finally decide to allow videos publishing without any restrictions (except the legal ones) .
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#4 Losermaker

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 12:37 PM

I think a player should be allowed to ask and post if there is no objection for very similar reasons to what Nortrom has given.



#5 Morx

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 12:52 PM

Strongly going with number 2. Just because a lot of players do not respond at all in battle chat.

 

If I knew everyone knew how to read and write in English I would support number 1

 

I do not want any of my setups or play style on Video, associated with my unique user id to it.

 

Morx


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#6 Jesus_saves

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 01:25 PM

I support Nortroms view for point 2. Some players don‘t want their settings being made public, so they can object. A player who make a game public by video should be obliged to save the prove of no objection by print screen of the chat box.

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#7 TemplateRex

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 01:36 PM

I personally am in favor of the third option: posting videos should be allowed without the opponent's permission.

 

Rationale: First, as a matter of principle, I believe that I own my own games (in the copyright sense) and should be free to do with them as I see fit. Second, "the no public video posting without permission" default is detrimental to the good of the game. This game is too beautiful for its most exciting content to kept hidden away.

 

"No public posting" is also the end of a very broad spectrum of various ways of sharing info. One can restrict both the content and the audience:

  • Content: one can publicly share publicly share video fragments, publicly share diagrams with analysis, or reconstruct the opponent's setup.
  • Audience: one can also share within smaller circles, e.g. with one's friends, trainer/coach or club members (e.g. during a training session).     

Does the "no sharing without permission" rule also extend to these restricted forms of sharing? I would find that incredibly oppressive. And if not, where to draw the line?

 

However, I do recognize the great lengths that top players go through to design and fine tune their setups. Of course they want to reap the benefits from these time investments for as long as possible. However, protecting this for eternity goes against the benefit of the game. IMO, Stratego without YouTube / Twitch / written analysis cannot be taken serious as a mind sports. What good is it to win tournaments or titles if there is no record for posterity? 

 

So I would propose the following site rules:

  1. All games can be freely recorded and shared without the opponent's permission.  
  2. Players can privately (in battle chat) and mutually agree not to share, enforcement by MT (video evidence required by the plaintiff).
  3. Tournament games (WCO, all the other long running leagues) are embargoed until after the tournament has finished. After the tournament, the same rules as for regular games apply (see point 1). 

So top players can play in the WCO with a handful of tailor-made setups but they should not expect to be able to use these beyond the 10 games of such a tournament. 

 

Possible counter arguments:

  • Opponent's will data mine my games, I can be exploited. Not likely, watching videos takes time, there is no game record from a database that can be statistically analyzed.
  • I will have to invent new setups all the time. Good, isn't the infinite variety what makes this game great?
  • and so on and so forth :)

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I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#8 UnladenSwallow

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 01:43 PM

In favour of #3.
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#9 rgillis783

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 03:19 PM

I myself like #2 - I was asked yesterday if it was ok to record and I declined. The player respected my opinion as far as I know. I have bumped into more than a few players who did not understand English they will respond with a ? mark or reply in their native lang. Google translates well enough for a few words to get across. I am not sure there is much anyone could do if recorded/posted. I do like to be asked and I think it is more about manners with me. NO - ONE would want to see my weak azz set ups anyway ! B)



#10 UnladenSwallow

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 03:46 PM

I have bumped into more than a few players who did not understand English

 

Exactly.

 

So why is #2 a sensible option if there are swathes of people who do not understand English? It's like saying I'm going to post in Chinese and if you don't understand it or don't reply to me in Chinese, too bad, because I'm going to upload regardless. 

 

Additionally something like #2 would completely kill off any kind of live streaming event like the ones Max (Silverhammer) et al publish. I don't believe we should be so restrictive with video content. Never before have I seen a community that is so prohibitive to producing videos. 

 


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#11 astros

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 04:24 PM

3, this isn't really the MT's purview unless their is inappropriate content in the videos. Players already get shamed if they post without permission.
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#12 rgillis783

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 06:13 PM

Exactly.

 

So why is #2 a sensible option if there are swathes of people who do not understand English? It's like saying I'm going to post in Chinese and if you don't understand it or don't reply to me in Chinese, too bad, because I'm going to upload regardless. 

 

Additionally something like #2 would completely kill off any kind of live streaming event like the ones Max (Silverhammer) et al publish. I don't believe we should be so restrictive with video content. Never before have I seen a community that is so prohibitive to producing videos. 

I my self like #2 Swallow as I stated because if some one is non-English they may know to try Google translate. If I received Greek-cyrillic I may try to translate/understand or Asian characters. Nowhere did I ever state any of this is sensible. My preference also gives me option to bail on match if I know it is being recorded . You also posted about live streams which I also enjoy. I think of these as a bit different in that they are "LIVE" streams ! No one mentioned it would be posted on YouTube after stream is over. I understand some do post it others no. So if you wish other wise Swallow more power to ya ! This is open forum still as far as I know. Please show some respect for others opinions. 

 

I will not add more to this --sry I made second post but wanted to clear the air as they say 


Edited by rgillis783, 28 December 2018 - 06:41 PM.

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#13 Tilor

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 06:54 PM

I am fine with either option #2 or #3. I do not think option #1 is good at all. 

 

Personally, I have no problem with people recording games against me. I do understand the desire of the few at the top to stay there. However, the vast majority of games played here do not involve the elite players and the decision should not be made for them alone. 

 

On tournaments, I do feel that the video shouldn't be released until after the tourney. 


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#14 GaryLShelton

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 09:38 PM

A stranger walks up to your house.  Should he:

 

1) knock on the door or ring the bell and patiently wait until you respond and come to the door to let him in?

2) knock on the door or ring the bell and when there is no answer just simply open the door and enter?

3) simply just open the door and go inside?

 

I personally cannot believe anyone even questions this.  1) is the only reasonable choice.  



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#15 TemplateRex

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 09:48 PM

A stranger walks up to a public bar.  Should he:

 

1) knock on the door or ring the bell and patiently wait until you respond and come to the door to let him in?

2) knock on the door or ring the bell and when there is no answer just simply open the door and enter?

3) simply just open the door and go inside?

 

I personally cannot believe anyone even questions this.  3) is the only reasonable choice.  


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I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#16 murph878

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 09:58 PM

Option 3.

I was initially drawn to and loved the game because it was so cool to see how talented some of the OG legends are in the old videos. I wanted to be them. Without any videos being posted nowadays I feel like it does a disservice to popularizing the game.

Also I look at it kind of like poker. People were able to sweat the high stakes games going on and people made videos without consent all the time.

It's not like the guys at the top aren't gonna see their videos posted and make adjustments.
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#17 Losermaker

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 10:27 PM

On tournaments, I do feel that the video shouldn't be released until after the tourney. 

Tournaments would go by the tournament organizing parties' rules.



#18 Don_Homer

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 10:32 PM

My strong preference is: ''1) posting videos publicly without express BattleChat permission is not allowed.''

 

I already argumented why in earlier discussion. Unpredicatability, surprise, mystique en secrecy are great and vital parts of this game.

 

Furthermore I believe somebody that not knows English has an equal right for privacy and protection of his playing style and setup,


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#19 Oracle

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 11:02 PM

In my opinion the best method for the community would be a solution between option 2) and 3) .

 

Only in case of friendly and ranked games, no competition ones!!!

Option 2.5) Posting videos publicly is allowed, but this intention has to be announced at least one minute before the game starts.

I expect less than 5% of the users do not know English at all



#20 tobermoryx

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 03:28 AM

Wasn't there some other stratego site where ALL games were viewable to anyone ? Didn't most of the top players use to play there? 

 

I agree with Rex that it doesn't help promote the credibility of the game if matches are only heard about as a result and never seen. Imagine if a top chess player tried to stop people from knowing what moves he had made...

 

If someone is using the same set up over and over they will suffer for it whether or not it is on You Tube.

 

I don't get Gary's analogy: If a stratego game is the house then it is jointly owned by the two players, and either of them can let in anyone they like.
 


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