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Piece value contest


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#21 Wogomite

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 03:45 PM

An earlier post said that 3900 would be the highest combined value but if I have a different value for known marsh without spy, known marsh with spy, unknown marsh with spy, unknown marsh with out spy...then if I show this detail with all pieces which to me would be realistically representing piece value, wouldn't there be a potential of much higher then 39 pieces being valued...which Napos 3900 could really be much MUCH more than that.
The biggest thing deterring me from trying to figure out piece value is the vast amount of combinations and scenarios, for example four srgts while there are no luiets on the board would be rated much higher than if there were lueits, or rather one known lueit in the vacinity or not the vacinity of my sgts...do you see my dilema, to me to appropriately delegate piece value, it would take a whole lot of time to consider, maybe ten hours or more to properly demonstrate most situations. And then to write it out for you, maybe many more pages than you care to read. Am I missing something or is this what you are looking for?

#22 Nortrom

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 04:08 PM

There's a reason why it's about initial values. Consider all 40 pieces (you don't have to give a value to flag). So all lieutenants, sergeants etc would be present. What value would you give those. Would you make a difference for sergeant #2 or sergeant #4?

 

The sgt/LT example you gave is not so important. The function of the pieces do not change much, if at all. A spy can be useful / useless as a slow moving scout.

 

You're more than free to come up with useful scenario's. I think SGT/LT isn't useful (i'll give you that) but variations with spy/marshal may very well be. 

 

I'll give you guys this tip: pieces used in Barrage / QA, may be interesting to look at.


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#23 Wogomite

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 05:14 PM

My lueit/Sgt example is a significant difference and does change the rank of the sgt. Consider a rank being that of what the opposition has, not what you have alone, and not the number of a piece. Without your opponent having lueits, a Sgt becomes a
half leuit if his opponent has sgts and a full luiet if his opponent has no sgts. Think about it, in this scenario, your leuit and Sgt has no difference. This is also the case if the highest piece on the board is a colonel, pragmatically it is now the marshal. Whether the colonel is a 10 or 8, it is now the exact same either way.
If what your asking for though is starting pieces, then it makes since but to say a marshal can have a different value in one circumstance but a Sgt cannot have a different value in a certain circumstance is what I don't understand. If the marshal can be known with a value different from an unknown one, this is a different value based on development...why would a Sgt not have a different value based on development as well.

I like this idea, I just don't know where to draw the line in distinguishing different values based on what? Just because a marshal is a key player, it should not be favoured in a change of value through development of any kind if a miner or Sgt cannot as well.
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#24 Nortrom

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 05:28 PM

Yes, but removing 4 LTs from game would not be "40 starting pieces". So, no, for this contest it is not significant.

I'm not interested in relative values for ordinary pieces. If you play with three Sgts that's it, no further complications.

Playing without a spy... would have a much larger impact. Because this can make a realistic and easy to spot difference , you are allowed to address this.

If a contestant feels the loss of a sergeant out of 40 pieces is a significant issue, you're allowed to address it.

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#25 Wogomite

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 05:57 PM

Ok, I understand, so you are looking for major things, not bit picky micro-detailed things. That makes it easier because the value of a single piece can change 100 times through a match, typically not drastically all at once however. You are saying the more drastic changes is what you are looking for I think.

#26 Don_Homer

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 06:25 PM

I'll give you guys this tip: pieces used in Barrage / QA, may be interesting to look at.

 

This triggers the old Don :). Unfortunately I have no time to make a good try. I think its quite time consuming. And I would be beaten by the TemplateRexes of this world anyway :D


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#27 TemplateRex

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 06:26 PM

This triggers the old Don :). Unfortunately I have no time to make a good try. I think its quite time consuming. And I would be beaten by the TemplateRexes of this world anyway :D.


Your understanding of the game is much better than mine, just give it a try!

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#28 Don_Homer

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 06:51 PM

Your understanding of the game is much better than mine, just give it a try!

 

As I said, its not the right time for me these months. Its a complex contest.

 

What is the purpose of this contest, Nortrom?


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#29 Nortrom

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 07:02 PM

In non-particular order:

 

- Entertainment

- Fruitful discussion(s)

- Game theory light. It's still a theoretical topic.

- Raising skill level

- Triggering thought process of some in a way they may not have thought about pieces/values before. Making a balanced set of values is quite complicated I think.


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#30 Don_Homer

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 07:06 PM

If this is game theory light.....  :unsure:


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#31 Nortrom

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 07:07 PM

Quantity wise, yes.

 

I think one could write a 10-pager on flag placement for example :).


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#32 Don_Homer

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 07:09 PM

Quantity wise, yes.

 

I think one could write a 10-pager on flag placement for example :).

Well I think this one is more complicated… 


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#33 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 07:10 PM

Again the value of a piece depends also on your opponent. For example a bomb has very value against lotto players but against somebody who you know never makes lotto a bomb value is low. Also a bomb sealing a flag is probably of higher value than another bomb.
So again my question from before who would win the contest if 2 participants would give exactly same values for all movable pieces but one would give a low value for bombs and the other one a higher value for bombs?
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#34 TemplateRex

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 07:14 PM

Quantity wise, yes.
 
I think one could write a 10-pager on flag placement for example :).


Looking forward to your memoirs ;)

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#35 Nortrom

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 08:04 PM

So again my question from before who would win the contest if 2 participants would give exactly same values for all movable pieces but one would give a low value for bombs and the other one a higher value for bombs?

Take a guess.


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#36 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 08:15 PM

there was already a discussion on this topic here: http://forum.strateg...alues/?p=438734

 

I think the right question is not only the value of each piece but the total value of your army


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#37 Nortrom

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 08:19 PM

The value of your army is the sum of the individual pieces you apply to them.

If you assign a score of 100000 on your marshal, your army will atleast be 100000. Sounds pointless.

 

 

 

Yes, the topic has been discussed prior - this time there's a small contest added to it.


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#38 TemplateRex

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 08:43 PM

@Nortrom: after the contest, can you also discuss what in your opinion are the most often made mistakes (in your opinion) that you encounter when doing trades? Do people value bomb locations too cheaply, do they over-estimate the marshal vs. general, do they give up the spy for too little, do they too lightly hit a known piece with one rank higher, is info for the high pieces under-estimated etc.?


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#39 Nortrom

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 09:51 PM

I'm not planning on it - I'm not a public school teacher.


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#40 TemplateRex

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 10:04 PM

I'm not planning on it - I'm not a public school teacher.

 

I see. I guess this is what you meant with "fruitful discussion", or would you label it "entertainment"?  :rolleyes:


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