Jump to content


Photo

Piece value contest


  • Please log in to reply
77 replies to this topic

#1 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,746 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 11 November 2018 - 12:54 AM

It has been a while since a positive contest was held on the forum. It's time for a new one. No crossword puzzle this time :).
 
Intro
This contest is about initial piece values. Every piece has it's strength (rank) e.g. EU numbering marshal = 10. I'm sure most players would be happy to trade in three sergeants (3*4 = 12) in exchange for the opponent's marshal at the start of a game. We can safely assume that strength does not equal value. How much is each rank (or piece) worth in your opinion?
 
Deadline and procedure
All entries must be submitted by personal message title of the message must be "PV Contest" (not capital sensitive). With the WCO going I have loads of PM's going on. I want to be able to search/filter easily, this is best achieved if everyone uses the same topic title.
 
Entries must be submitted before monday 19th of november 2018, 23.00 GMT.
 
Only the last entry from a player will be taken into account. Edits are not preferred. Rather make a new message inside the existing PM so that it will give a notification.
 
Entry requirements
Entries must contain raw values. Formulas or whatsoever will not be taken into consideration. If you want to use an excel sheet for example, it is ok to use formulas, as long as the presentation layer exclusively contains raw values.
Small example: Say you want to deduct 20% of value for a known piece, I don't want to see unknown marshal = 80. Known marshal = (unknown marshal *0.8). I simply want to see unknoown marshal = 80. Known marshal = 64. If you calculated that using a formula, that's fine. 
 
You may make it as easy or complicated as you like. If you want to put difference values to known or unknown pieces, you're free to do so. Find the 2nd colonel worth more than the first? go ahead, make it as complicated as you like.
 
Allowed ranges of values and numbers
The maximum value you're allowed to use is 1000. The lowest is 1. A maximum of two decimals is allowed. 1.33 is ok, 1.33 is not. I don't want to see 1.330 either. (I'm fine with either the "," or "." being used as decimal separator) The flag is ignored. Anyone entering the flag is automatically disqualified. Only "normal" numbers 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/0 are allowed. Submitting for example roman numbers will result in disqualification.
 
Reminder
The piece values are about the starting values. A miner may be more valuable in the late game when there are a low amount of pieces left. Again, focus on what pieces would be worth at the start of a game.
 
External files
If you want to present your results in a spreadsheet, word document, PDF or whatsoever, it will be your responsibility that I can open the files without trouble. Tip: Make a screenshot(s) to acompany any file links you may want to use - using plain text in the PM is fine too.
 
No copying/stealing/plagiarism
Original creation requirement; copying someone else's work (e.g. from Stratego AI documentation, theses etc is not allowed).
 
Winner choosing
The winner will be a subjective choice by me. Things I'll look for:
 
- Complexity (the more thought and effort put into it, the better).
- Realistic (comes down to how much I agree with it).
- Other small, at this moment undefined, things. These may be added on the go - If you have any suggestions towards criteria, feel free to suggest.
 
Extra requirements
It is mandatory to:
1) Make a public post in this thread stating you've submitted an entry after submitting your entry (post bumping purpose). Of course it is permitted to ask questions here too.
2) Not share your entry, anywhere, with anyone until the deadline has been reached. (except by PM to me...).
3) By participating, you agree that at the end of the contest, the inputs of all entries will be published including the accountname who made the entry.
4) Work alone. No collaboration allowed. (see 2)). This also includes (public) debate about values.
 
Minimum amount of entries
If there are, somehow, less than 5 entries once the deadline has been reached, the contest will be void.
 
Prizes
Prizes (the winner must choose one of the following within 1 week after the winner has been announced): 
 
1) A free hour (60mins, to be done within one session) of Stratego coaching over Skype (only for players who have never reached 800 ELO or above on stratego.com (secrecy required)).
2) You get to pick the next Nortrom's blog topic (excluding game theory).
3) You will hear an exclusive story about one of the legendary live WC 2015 games I played, including the setup and preparation (secrecy required).
4. You're free to suggest something else - I will have the final say in whether your suggestion is accepted or not.
 
Questions
Any questions? go ahead and ask.
 
Nortrom

  • texaspete09, Fks and TemplateRex like this

"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts

 

eOMDNAj.png


#2 TemplateRex

TemplateRex

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 790 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Sergeant

Posted 11 November 2018 - 01:30 AM

Great topic, I'll give it a shot :) One thing to think about is how you will publish the results, given that people will use different scales. In chess, it is conventional to express everything in pawn units. E.g. https://en.wikipedia..._relative_value Note the many great old masters have entries in the table. Can we standardize the Stratego piece values in terms of e.g. sergeant's units? I.e. just put value(sergeant) = 1.


I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#3 astros

astros

    Stratego TM

  • NASF Committee
  • 926 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Sergeant

Posted 11 November 2018 - 01:49 AM

Astros, I'll try to give a better model if I have time
  • Nortrom likes this
Cheesecake

#4 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,746 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 11 November 2018 - 02:41 AM

Add: only the last entry from a player will be taken into account. Edits are not preferred. Rather make a new message inside the existing PM so that it will give a notification.

"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts

 

eOMDNAj.png


#5 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,746 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 11 November 2018 - 02:46 AM

@TR the entries will be published as submitted. I'll think about whether to add any text that a contestant may have provided or not.

I don't care what scale you use. If you want to use sergeants as "standard" you're free to do so. If you want to use a colonel as "standard" again, be my guest.

I think most straightforward is using a point system rather than "12 sergeants". You could have 58 sergeants and 100% lose against two lieutenants. In chess this is different due to other winning condition AND the possibility of promoting to a queen. 6 pawns will probably beat a bishop and a knight (what say you, Roeczak? ;))

"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts

 

eOMDNAj.png


#6 Napoleon 1er

Napoleon 1er

    General

  • Honorary members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,844 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 11 November 2018 - 11:48 AM

Sorry, I'm not sure to understand clearly what we are supposed to put in PM. Is it possible to have an example of how you would like to see the proposals?


  • Don_Homer likes this
If you don't know where you go ... you have a lot of chance to arrive elsewhere ...

#7 Don_Homer

Don_Homer

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 902 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Spy

Posted 11 November 2018 - 04:53 PM

If it is ''initial piece value'' how is that combined with ''second colonel'' and ''third sergeant''? In this way I agree with Napoleon. Stronger, I think there is no perfect answer, no perfect formula to make because of the dynamic of the game. Its all relatively. Dependent of which pieces gets hit during a game other pieces get stronger and the ''absolute value'' is different every game. This is why the game is so great. 

 

 

And what is the difference between ''Stratego coaching'' and ''game-theory'' and why is the latter taboo? 


Molto Bene, Thats a nica Donut !


#8 TemplateRex

TemplateRex

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 790 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Sergeant

Posted 11 November 2018 - 05:33 PM

@Don_Homer Suppose you have to play the following game: both players setup their initial position, and then they have to bid: which piece are you willing to take off the board in order to know your opponent’s marshal location? Highest bidder wins and gets to know their opponent’s marshal and remove the piece they bid. If your opponent bids "captain", are you willing to bid "major"? If not, then you value marshal info between a captain and a major. Similar bids can determine the info value of other pieces.

Material value can be determined in the same way. E.g., normalize an unknown marshal’s value to 100, which piece compensation would you need to be a marshal down and a general up? (All other pieces unknown and at their initial positions). A major? A captain? And how much compensation for general down and a colonel up, etc.?

You could also analyze 80,000 Gravon games and compute the ELO ratings of the various piece material and info values using regression analysis. :)

I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#9 Don_Homer

Don_Homer

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 902 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Spy

Posted 11 November 2018 - 06:05 PM

@Don_Homer Suppose you have to play the following game: both players setup their initial position, and then they have to bid: which piece are you willing to take off the board in order to know your opponent’s marshal location? Highest bidder wins and gets to know their opponent’s marshal and remove the piece they bid. If your opponent bids "captain", are you willing to bid "major"? If not, then you value marshal info between a captain and a major. Similar bids can determine the info value of other pieces.

Material value can be determined in the same way. E.g., normalize an unknown marshal’s value to 100, which piece compensation would you need to be a marshal down and a general up? (All other pieces unknown and at their initial positions). A major? A captain? And how much compensation for general down and a colonel up, etc.?

You could also analyze 80,000 Gravon games and compute the ELO ratings of the various piece material and info values using regression analysis. :)

My bid at the beginning will be different than my bid when some pieces are off the board. Nortrom is talking about a 3th sercheant, you can not lose a third sergeant before you lose 1st and 2nd serge, which suggest pieces are off the board already. 

 

For the Gravon analyses, we can better leave that to you ;) 


Molto Bene, Thats a nica Donut !


#10 TemplateRex

TemplateRex

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 790 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Sergeant

Posted 11 November 2018 - 06:20 PM

My bid at the beginning will be different than my bid when some pieces are off the board. Nortrom is talking about a 3th sercheant, you can not lose a third sergeant before you lose 1st and 2nd serge, which suggest pieces are off the board already. 
 
For the Gravon analyses, we can better leave that to you ;)


Marshal lotto a4-a5-a6xa7xa8xa9xa10, hitting 3 sergeants before dying on a bomb. Seems still very close to the initial position for the values of marshal/sergeant and bomb info not have changed too much. But say, hitting 3 miners might be a different matter...

I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#11 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,746 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 11 November 2018 - 10:03 PM

Sorry, I'm not sure to understand clearly what we are supposed to put in PM. Is it possible to have an example of how you would like to see the proposals?

Use whatever format you like. It's an open thing. Do as you see fit. If you want to limit to:

marshal = xx

general = xx

colonel = xx

 

You're free to do so.

 

If you want to differentiate between which number of piece, you're free to do so. You'll probably not care so much for losing/revealing a first bomb. A second bomb and so on you may value slightly higher. That is up to you. If you want to differentiate between known pieces and unknown pieces, again, you're free to do so. It's up to you.

 

You're free to make a difference between a spy w/o marshal on the board or with a marshal on the board. You're also free to combine this with any other condition (open flag, have a marshal of your own etc) - Totally up to you.

 

If it is ''initial piece value'' how is that combined with ''second colonel'' and ''third sergeant''? In this way I agree with Napoleon. Stronger, I think there is no perfect answer, no perfect formula to make because of the dynamic of the game. Its all relatively. Dependent of which pieces gets hit during a game other pieces get stronger and the ''absolute value'' is different every game. This is why the game is so great. 

 

 

And what is the difference between ''Stratego coaching'' and ''game-theory'' and why is the latter taboo? 

See above example regarding bombs. You would probably have less issues playing with minus one bomb from the start opposed to minus two. At the end of the game, the bombs (not directly serving any purpose) may be worth less. Hence, initial value. Say you were to value a colonel as 150 points, and a bomb as 25.

 

I would happily exchange my colonel for your (6*25) 6 bombs. Equal value. To counter this, you are allowed to say:

Bomb 1 = xx

Bomb 2 = yy

Bomb 3 = zz

Bomb 4 = pp

Bomb 5 = qq

Bomb 6 = rr

 

But again, you're not required to do so. A sergeant may offer no real significant difference whether it's the first or 4th you lose. This doesn't apply to all pieces. You are allowed, but definitely not required, to assign different values based on this.

 

 

I'm not interested in writing game theory at the moment, simply don't have the time or motivation for it currently.

 

My bid at the beginning will be different than my bid when some pieces are off the board. Nortrom is talking about a 3th sercheant, you can not lose a third sergeant before you lose 1st and 2nd serge, which suggest pieces are off the board already. 

 

I used sergeants because I didn't want to spoonfeed everyone.


"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts

 

eOMDNAj.png


#12 TemplateRex

TemplateRex

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 790 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Sergeant

Posted 11 November 2018 - 10:23 PM

See above example regarding bombs. You would probably have less issues playing with minus one bomb from the start opposed to minus two. At the end of the game, the bombs (not directly serving any purpose) may be worth less. Hence, initial value. Say you were to value a colonel as 150 points, and a bomb as 25.

 

At the recent Dutch Live Championships, I overheard two former world champions (more titles combined than you!) discuss the minimum piece compensating the info on the flag location or all 6 bomb locations. Their opinions were consistent with yours, to say the least ;)


I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#13 TemplateRex

TemplateRex

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 790 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Sergeant

Posted 12 November 2018 - 12:10 AM

I submitted my entry.


  • Nortrom likes this

I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#14 GaryLShelton

GaryLShelton

    Flagbearer

  • Moderators
  • 6,371 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Spy

Posted 12 November 2018 - 12:31 AM

A long time ago a guy named SuperDrew and his Siamese twin PsychoPatty were big into trying to establish a piece value calculation at the end of the game to determine the winner at a point where the game would automatically end. (Either time or moves without capture.) Of course, this context is about initial values but those guys would certainly contribute if they were still around. 😎
  • Don_Homer likes this

i77rs4m.jpg

The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#15 Napoleon 1er

Napoleon 1er

    General

  • Honorary members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,844 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 12 November 2018 - 10:51 AM

Sorry to ask more questions but it is still not clear to me. Shall we give the optimal value for each of the 39 pieces on the board (flag not being considered) at the beginning of the game up to max 1000 points for each piece? So theoretical maximum is 39000, right?
Also piece value may depend on the setup. As you can imagine a Marshall sealed behind bombs is worth less than a Marshall free to move, right?

And also you say that the total value of your army at beginning of game is important, but at beginning of game no pieces are known, so how shall the remark that a known marsh is worth less than an unknown marsh be integrated? At beginning of the game there are only unknown pieces?

Edited by Napoleon 1er, 12 November 2018 - 10:56 AM.

If you don't know where you go ... you have a lot of chance to arrive elsewhere ...

#16 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,746 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 12 November 2018 - 11:06 AM

Theoretical maximum would be 39000, yes. It doesn't make sense to give all pieces a value of 1000, but you're of course free to do so. 

 

Also you're not required to use 1000. If you want to use 500 as maximum or 20, again, you're free to do so.

 

Look at it like this: Sometimes in chess a player is given a one point handicap, which is equal to being a pawn down (often the B pawn to my knowledge). If one were to play with one knight less, there'd be a 3 point handicap. Queen would be somewhere between 9-10.

 

If you have three pawns (3x1 point) vs a knight (1x3 point) the game is considered equal, granted that there are still plenty of pieces left on the board of course.

 

In stratego, 3 miners will always beat a lone marshal (excluding lucky flag hits) in an end game. 3 pawns will most likely beat a knight too. At the beginning of a game, 3 pawns for a knight is a fair exchange. A marshal for 3 miners is not.

 

 

 

Regarding info: What piece would be break-even point for you to reveal any of your pieces. If you consider a sergeant to be 300 points and you find the knowledge of a marshal to be worth 250 points, you're basically saying you think it's a good exchange to reveal your marshal for a sergeant, since you're gaining 50 points.


"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts

 

eOMDNAj.png


#17 TemplateRex

TemplateRex

    Captain

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 790 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Sergeant

Posted 12 November 2018 - 11:47 AM

Sorry to ask more questions but it is still not clear to me. Shall we give the optimal value for each of the 39 pieces on the board (flag not being considered) at the beginning of the game up to max 1000 points for each piece? So theoretical maximum is 39000, right?
Also piece value may depend on the setup. As you can imagine a Marshall sealed behind bombs is worth less than a Marshall free to move, right?

And also you say that the total value of your army at beginning of game is important, but at beginning of game no pieces are known, so how shall the remark that a known marsh is worth less than an unknown marsh be integrated? At beginning of the game there are only unknown pieces?

 

Basically the Stratego equivalent of this brilliant essay on chess by GM Larry Kaufman. 


  • roeczak likes this

I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#18 Napoleon 1er

Napoleon 1er

    General

  • Honorary members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,844 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 12 November 2018 - 01:09 PM

Thanks for the explanations but what is it what someone needs to win this contest? Isn't it the highest value of your army after swapping with another one's army? For example if I have one scout with a value of 1000 and another one has a marsh for 600 and a gen for 400, can I swap my scout for his marsh and Gen? What is it that you need to win this contest?
If you don't know where you go ... you have a lot of chance to arrive elsewhere ...

#19 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,746 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 12 November 2018 - 01:19 PM

You need to come up with the most realistic and detailed as possible values for pieces.

 

Detailed means difference between known/unknown  or the value of info etc.

 

You're also welcome to submit an entry only containing piece values, ignoring info. You'll still hold an advantage, quality wise, over someone that submits an info based value list that is completely off.

 

The closer your entry is to "perfectly balanced" the better I will like it - even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

 

If you rate general = 900,  sergeant = 400 I think it's safe to say the balance is far off.

 

A higher value army can still lose to a lower value army. A marshal + general will beat 2 colos, 3 majors,4 captains, 4 lieutenants, 4 sergeants. You don't have to take into account for such extreme situations.

 

Just like a two miner army will beat a lone marshal. Don't focus on these kind of things. Focus on what a realistic value would be for a specific piece.


"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts

 

eOMDNAj.png


#20 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,746 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 12 November 2018 - 01:21 PM

In short: If you have a truly amazing piece value list and not submit an info one, you'll still score better than a decent value list and a decent info value list.

 

In other words, submit what you think is right. Submitting things that are deemed unrealistic will cost you. Hence, you're allowed to make it as complicated and big as you like.


"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts

 

eOMDNAj.png





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users