Jump to content


Photo

MT Announcement - Double/Multiple Chasing Enforcement


  • Please log in to reply
114 replies to this topic

#21 Napoleon 1er

Napoleon 1er

    General

  • Honorary members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,812 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum General

Posted 08 July 2018 - 07:15 AM

Informing the opponent in chat that these are illegal moves sets the starting time. 5 minutes or x moves after that the chased player can surrender snd show defeat screen. MT shall then judge if the chased player would have had a clear win or not. In case the situation is not a clear win MT can decide to give a draw.

Edited by Napoleon 1er, 08 July 2018 - 07:16 AM.

If you don't know where you go ... you have a lot of chance to arrive elsewhere ...

#22 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,652 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 08 July 2018 - 12:09 PM

Making it a draw, when one made illegal moves, is a reward if anything.


"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts


#23 Wogomite

Wogomite

    Captain

  • Honorary members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 882 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum General

Posted 08 July 2018 - 01:59 PM

Making it a draw, when one made illegal moves, is a reward if anything.

Do you mind elaborating further? Is losing my chance to win also part of the reward? An incentive with a draw is probably still going to force me to spend 3 hours waiting my opponent out in certain scenarios, awarding a rightful win would in those circumstances allow me to avoid the atrocious behaviour and save me 3 hours. I don't see why mt would care to make it 1/2 better for the victim while they can simply award the rightful win to make it 100 percent right for the victim.

I understand profs reasoning that awarding a win will cause some trolls to abuse that as well, trolls are everywhere and will exploit anything they can, let's serve the victims with mt decision, not focus on the few trolls. Are you here to serve and support the masses? If so, award us the rightful win for a d/m chase. Anything other than a win does not make mts new trial period worth it. At that point, they are still allowing a victim to stay the victim.

Atleast with draw refuser, that is what the victim wants and is GOING for. In a d/m chase, the victim neither wants or is working towards a draw, a ******** abuser is robbing him from it! I don't see how someone can (while cheating) take away someone's chance for a win and the organizers be ok with it? This is absurd!

#24 Napoleon 1er

Napoleon 1er

    General

  • Honorary members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,812 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum General

Posted 08 July 2018 - 02:31 PM

Making it a draw, when one made illegal moves, is a reward if anything.


Ok to punish illegal moves but not with win or lose, if the chased player cannot win then it is abusive to give him a win for being chased. MT shall simply decide if it is clear win and if not then give a draw. This is notwithstanding any separate punishment for the chaser for multiple chasing
If you don't know where you go ... you have a lot of chance to arrive elsewhere ...

#25 Wogomite

Wogomite

    Captain

  • Honorary members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 882 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum General

Posted 08 July 2018 - 02:40 PM

So without a clear win then it should be ruled a NO chance of a win? Not sure that makes since when it was not the players fault that was chased.

If the concern is players not warning chasing offenders of the rules before trying to get a win the solution is simple...
If the victim does not give clear instruction of the crime and punishment for the d/m chase offense, then there is no case. With the added dialogue, there is reason to award the win just out of principle for what the victim had to endure; decent time on match, putting up with the chasing abuser and the hassle to upload everything...a win is easily deserved with all that effort.

Why punish a player that has to endure all of this with a draw? It was not the victims fault and as long as he had a SHOT at a win, he should be treated fairly and awarded a win.
  • GaryLShelton likes this

#26 KissMyCookie

KissMyCookie

    Major

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,217 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Spy

Posted 08 July 2018 - 04:00 PM

So without a clear win then it should be ruled a NO chance of a win? Not sure that makes since when it was not the players fault that was chased.

Why punish a player that has to endure all of this with a draw? It was not the victims fault and as long as he had a SHOT at a win, he should be treated fairly and awarded a win.

 

Although I understand your concerns, Wogomite, and in spite of the fact that these are good points to bring up for discussion, it seems to me that the majority of Draw Refusal cases that are brought up in the forum are by players who understand the rules, recognize a draw situation when it is just that (yes, there are other times which are not quite so clear), and then are forced to endure the frustration of not being able to leave a game without making screenshots/video and then filing a report. Now, couple this with players who are intentionally making trouble, or are so ignorant of the rules that they refuse to end the game (most players flat out refusing to end the match with a tie, in my opinion, are troublemakers), are also often at the bottom of a double chase/multiple chase scenario. Of course, a well seasoned player may try to seize upon this opportunity to use this trial period of D/M Chasing to manipulate an illegal action with an outcome in their favor.

 

In the end, this is a trial/study period and I can say that I do put my trust in this current MT to be able to scrutinize and reach a proper decision based upon the quality of the evidence presented–the clearer the evidence, the more favorable for a solid decision. I really have trouble imagining that someone could fool Nortrom, tobermoryx, and MTinsley, and then add to the mix Maj. Nelson's game-skill and the experience of GaryLShelton, I don't see a panel of five that will reach a bad decision on this topic, but a panel of five that would be very, VERY hard pressed to reach a "wrong" decision.

 

Time will tell. :)

 

P.S. If you personally, Wogomite, are palying a match and you get the nasty surprise that someone is trying to use this rule to manipulate a match against you, you then need to get your video and screenshots working to build a defense case–you would certainly know what to do!  :D


Edited by KissMyCookie, 08 July 2018 - 04:02 PM.


#27 Wogomite

Wogomite

    Captain

  • Honorary members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 882 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum General

Posted 08 July 2018 - 04:21 PM

Well written KMC and you are right, the goal of MT is to run things smoothly and protect us which they are good at. I should show a little more trust in them shouldn't I? :)

 

I just ask that MT is lenient with allowing a POTENTIAL win to be recognized when making your case to case verdicts.



#28 Napoleon 1er

Napoleon 1er

    General

  • Honorary members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,812 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum General

Posted 08 July 2018 - 07:26 PM

Imagine a case where the chased player is left with 2 miners and the double chasing player is left with 2 captains (double chasing the miners) and one unmoved unknown sergeant. Now whatever the reason is for the opponent to double chase the plaintiff cannot win, so game shall end in draw. ... in all logic the same penalties as draw refusal shall apply while it is wrong to grant the win to the plaintiff.
If you don't know where you go ... you have a lot of chance to arrive elsewhere ...

#29 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,652 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 08 July 2018 - 07:36 PM

2 capts and one sergeant would almost, always, win vs 2 miners anywy.


  • GaryLShelton likes this

"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts


#30 The Prof

The Prof

    Colonel

  • Honorary members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,515 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Scout

Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:30 PM

Informing the opponent in chat that these are illegal moves sets the starting time. 5 minutes or x moves after that the chased player can surrender snd show defeat screen. MT shall then judge if the chased player would have had a clear win or not. In case the situation is not a clear win MT can decide to give a draw.

 

Why should he surrender when he can request a draw?  If it is a clear win then the MT can change the draw to a win, and if not then no adjustment would need to be made.  But if the player surrenders then the MT will have to request admin for some type of adjustment whether or not it was a clear win.

 

I understand Wogomite point about the victim of chasing sometimes being prevented an opportunity to win a game they otherwise could have won.  Though I think my approach would provide more incentive for players to educate their opponents about the rule, I strongly support the MT's effort to do something about d/m chasers whether they decide to award wins to victim of chasing in all cases or only for clear wins.  In either case, as chasers start to get punished the incidence of d/m chasing should become less for everyone.  Thank you to the MT for taking this on.



#31 Churruca

Churruca

    Bomb

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 38 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Lieutenant

Posted 14 July 2018 - 04:39 PM

Hey, I played against TRIVOL and he chased me several times.

 

I think that with the rule of 3 movements, it is easy when you move between 3 squares, a easy mistake or missclich makes you unable to move again and the chaser gets the piece. 
 
I told him in the chat.
 
Finally he stopped doing it, but he tried many times before.
 
FYI

nyibn.jpg

If you come to know that my ship has been taken prisoner, say that I have died


#32 GaryLShelton

GaryLShelton

    Flagbearer

  • Moderators
  • 6,249 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Lieutenant

Posted 17 July 2018 - 10:47 PM

Guys, the enforcement on double / multiple chasing is going to be a lost game on the perpetrator. Surrendering the game and the resulting defeat screen will be required to prove this. 25 points will be awarded to the victim of double chasing in successful cases. This will be the difference between a loss and a win in any game.

Counter chasing is not double chasing and is nowhere limited/prohibited by the ISF. If two people wish to alternate in chasing each other (i.e., counter chase each other) until Judgement Day, there's nothing to stop them. For sensible people they will break off from such ridiculous exploits, but just as there's no pill for ignorance, there isn't any rule against such movements either. Both players are in the wrong and both players are in the right. On this site we do have the answer of a draw refusal procedure so at the most any problem of counter chasing should last only 10 minutes for the unwilling victim.
  • Wogomite likes this

i77rs4m.jpg

The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#33 GaryLShelton

GaryLShelton

    Flagbearer

  • Moderators
  • 6,249 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Lieutenant

Posted 17 July 2018 - 10:50 PM

Thanks to The Prof for the correction on the threatening vs. attacking language in the announcement.

i77rs4m.jpg

The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#34 GaryLShelton

GaryLShelton

    Flagbearer

  • Moderators
  • 6,249 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Gold Lieutenant

Posted 09 August 2018 - 01:35 PM

The Losermaker case against xXDLXx for double chasing brings to focus the interesting question of punishing a double chaser when the victim (Losermaker in this case) wins the game.

If Losermaker had quit the game, he would have been awarded 25 points to correct the situation, and xXDLXx would have been punished at the first level in the penalty scheme. But since Losermaker had the audacity to go ahead and win :), should anything happen to the double chaser in his game?

The announcement in the first post of this topic indicates we would do nothing as it clearly states a defeat screen is required. Losermaker does not need us to award him the win against xXDLXx, but should that take xXDLXx off the hook for any penalty?

i77rs4m.jpg

The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#35 Wogomite

Wogomite

    Captain

  • Honorary members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 882 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum General

Posted 09 August 2018 - 02:42 PM

No, it should not. Let me ask you this, does a drunk driver that has caused no one or thing harm or damage deserve to be let off the hook even with evidence in court that he was drunk driving? Of course not, he will be punished for his crime, if nothing else, to teach him a lesson so that he may not do it again in the future. This is for multiple reasons, one of which is to hope that this person will know better the next time so that no one has to suffer from his bad decision making before he gets in trouble. Allowing this evidence to go "overlooked" is only to encourage a d/m abuser that you can get away with it sometimes. I don't believe anyone found with evidence against them should go unpunished. Obviously losermaker needs nothing awarded towards him but I do believe the abuser should be treated as though losermaker did lose because if it was up to him, losermaker would have lost which was his intent using a method of cheating/abusive behaviour. A crime is a crime regardless of the success rate of a criminals desired outcome. If a man fails to murder a man, does he not get a charge of "attempted murder" which holds a hefty prison sentence. A fail means nothing, an attempt means everything. 


  • Fairway and Fks like this

#36 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,652 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 09 August 2018 - 02:51 PM

For a case/conviction:

 

- A defeat screen is required. By playing alternating moves (e.g. giving up a piece / position) you waive the right to make a case out of this  ( http://forum.strateg...g-announcement/ )

 

I wouldn't object to make a judgement based on the presented evidence, but the above clause makes it not possible to hand out a punishment. 

 

Perhaps that is something that could be changed, but it is a different discussion.


"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts


#37 TheOptician

TheOptician

    Marshal

  • Tournament Manager
  • 3,449 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 09 August 2018 - 03:25 PM

The requirement of a defeat a screen (in my opinion) should only apply to players wishing to retrieve points. If the case is made to report bad behaviour only, then what is the possible justification for this clause? (I suspect when it was introduced the author was only thinking about points).

A defeat screen is completely irrelevant to whether or not a player has committed an offence.

It is like having the rule:

'We will only prosecute offenders whose victim bought an ice-cream the previous week'
  • The Prof likes this

#38 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,652 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 09 August 2018 - 03:46 PM

A player may have returned after a legitimate disconnect during a bad position in game.


"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts


#39 TheOptician

TheOptician

    Marshal

  • Tournament Manager
  • 3,449 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 09 August 2018 - 04:53 PM

I don't see how that is related to a case for double chasing requiring a defeat screen?
  • rgillis783 likes this

#40 Nortrom

Nortrom

    General

  • WC Online Team
  • 2,652 posts
  • Coat of arms
  • Platinum Marshal

Posted 09 August 2018 - 05:01 PM

You are right, I was confused with another topic (disconnects) which was discussed within the MT again today :).

 

Anyway, a defeat screen is required as a means to ensure the player did not attempt to play out the game in a different way, and also as a means to know how much points should be restored/deducted.


"Rock is overpowered, paper is fine" - scissors

See this thread for live gaming updates

See this thread my blog posts





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users