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#1 Nortrom

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Posted 13 September 2018 - 11:10 PM

In here, suggestions, discussions, feedback etc can be placed, as a means to keep the respective report threads for reports and also to further improve the community / MT relation.


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#2 Nortrom

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Posted 2 weeks ago

Thread is now no longer hidden and active.


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#3 astros

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Posted 2 weeks ago

It is unacceptable for the MT to even vote on resetting every player's account to 100. The MT's prerogative is to deal with unfair practices and abusive players. The MT has no right to alter players accounts just because they want to see a cleaner leaderboard.
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#4 Nortrom

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Posted 2 weeks ago

To add to the above: This very specific topic would not have passed without consulting the community. Internally, pros and cons were discussed.

 

Many popular games feature "seasons" or "ladder reset" as a means to keep things interesting. The erasing inactive and alias accounts would be a positive side effect, but definitely not the main reason.


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#5 TemplateRex

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I completely disagree with the video permission rules. I think it keeps the game small and obscure. IMO, it should be allowed to stream or publish any ranked game played on stratego.com. If someone wants to practice a setup (e.g. top players preparing for live WC or WCO), he/she should find a sparring partner, make a private arrangement not to record/publish and play a non-ranked game. Anything ranked game should be fair game (pun intended) to publish.

 

For those scared of leaking information: if there is an abundance of videos, nobody has the time to watch everything anyway, and since game histories aren't digitally available, data mining for patterns is also infeasible. On Pokerstars, last time I checked, you don't need permission to stream your table on Twitch. There is no reason stratego.com should be any different.


Edited by TemplateRex, 2 weeks ago.

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I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#6 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 2 weeks ago

It is unacceptable for the MT to even vote on resetting every player's account to 100. The MT's prerogative is to deal with unfair practices and abusive players. The MT has no right to alter players accounts just because they want to see a cleaner leaderboard.


Who has been reset to 100?
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#7 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I completely disagree with the video permission rules. I think it keeps the game small and obscure. IMO, it should be allowed to stream or publish any ranked game played on stratego.com. If someone wants to practice a setup (e.g. top players preparing for live WC or WCO), he/she should find a sparring partner, make a private arrangement not to record/publish and play a non-ranked game. Anything ranked game should be fair game (pun intended) to publish.
 
For those scared of leaking information: if there is an abundance of videos, nobody has the time to watch everything anyway, and since game histories aren't digitally available, data mining for patterns is also infeasible. On Pokerstars, last time I checked, you don't need permission to stream your table on Twitch. There is no reason stratego.com should be any different.


I agree with you... Please others join we need a majority to support this idea
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#8 TheOptician

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Posted 2 weeks ago

What is the logic behind purging forum aliases?

#9 Nortrom

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Posted 2 weeks ago

Avoiding confusion, keeping future polls more clean, preventing players from influencing discussions with multiple accounts.


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#10 Wogomite

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Posted 2 weeks ago

It is unacceptable for the MT to even vote on resetting every player's account to 100. The MT's prerogative is to deal with unfair practices and abusive players. The MT has no right to alter players accounts just because they want to see a cleaner leaderboard.


I agree with astros here. If anything, this should be voted on by the community, not MT. Why would mt assume a decision without asking the rest of us our oppinion. This decision effects more than the 5 of them.
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#11 Wogomite

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I completely disagree with the video permission rules. I think it keeps the game small and obscure. IMO, it should be allowed to stream or publish any ranked game played on stratego.com. If someone wants to practice a setup (e.g. top players preparing for live WC or WCO), he/she should find a sparring partner, make a private arrangement not to record/publish and play a non-ranked game. Anything ranked game should be fair game (pun intended) to publish.

For those scared of leaking information: if there is an abundance of videos, nobody has the time to watch everything anyway, and since game histories aren't digitally available, data mining for patterns is also infeasible. On Pokerstars, last time I checked, you don't need permission to stream your table on Twitch. There is no reason stratego.com should be any different.

I also agree with this. Again, this involves more than five mods. This is about the whole of the community.

MT needs to do less voting internally and more creating polls to allow public voting. Mods should be enforcing the rules like police, not creating them on their own.
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#12 Don_Homer

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I completely disagree with the video permission rules. I think it keeps the game small and obscure. IMO, it should be allowed to stream or publish any ranked game played on stratego.com. If someone wants to practice a setup (e.g. top players preparing for live WC or WCO), he/she should find a sparring partner, make a private arrangement not to record/publish and play a non-ranked game. Anything ranked game should be fair game (pun intended) to publish.

 

For those scared of leaking information: if there is an abundance of videos, nobody has the time to watch everything anyway, and since game histories aren't digitally available, data mining for patterns is also infeasible. On Pokerstars, last time I checked, you don't need permission to stream your table on Twitch. There is no reason stratego.com should be any different.

I strongly disagree with TemplateRex (and Napoleon 1er) here. I will explain why. The element that made Stratego such a great and distinct game is the fact that the pieces are hidden. You can surprise your opponent with new strategies which start with unique setups. I remember in my early days, starting with stratego and eager to learn from the best players around. For example I played Gpet0 (one of the great veterans) and he beated me badly with a pretty unique setup I had never seen before. That was great despite the losing. I remembered the key elements of his setup easily (cause it was a ''traumatic'' loss :)). And started to try it myself. With these strategies I became a better player on a very nice way. I think I would not enjoyed it so much if I just watched some videos of games from Gpet0 or other strong players. Its fun to surprise players and its no fun when your opponent knows exactly how you play and has an easy win because of it. Yes you have to differ your style etc. but not everybody does that or is able to do it. I still like it very much to play against players I never played before so you can surprise each other and dont know what to expect.


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#13 TemplateRex

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I agree with you... Please others join we need a majority to support this idea

 

I changed my signature to unilaterally grant permission to all my opponents to publish my games. I know, the mouse boasting about making the noise of an elephant ;)


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I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#14 rgillis783

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I changed my signature to unilaterally grant permission to all my opponents to publish my games. I know, the mouse boasting about making the noise of an elephant ;)

I will not extend myself quite as far on this subject as TR  but I am aligned with the desire to grow the game and pool of players .TR mentioned Twitch a few posts above. Twitch shows they have a Stratego channel but no content. I am not a user of this service so if I am wrong please let me know. I would think the owners of this site and or game would want to expand the popularity of the game.Video is one of the best ,quickest and most coast effective  way to do this. To address Don Homers concerns I would point out the many chess games that are out there on video.I can see every move Bobby Fisher made but I still lose. It is one thing to know ya opponents set up it is another thing to play that set up  and adjust to your opponent setup/attack. It would also force players like myself to not get to comfortable and vary or mix up my setups.  :)


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#15 GaryLShelton

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Posted 2 weeks ago

Videoing games cannot be stopped.  That is a possibility of technology.  However, publishing a game without permission can and should be stopped.  Individual games are the property of those involved in playing them.  Asking permission from one's opponent to publish a game is hardly a problem.  It's merely a few keystrokes.  If an answer is returned in the positive, then the game can be published.  If not, then no.  It's pretty simple.  If a guy publishing games online feels frustrated by this, that's too bad.  There are other fish in the sea.  Ask the next player.  All players should have to right to decide whether each and every game they play is published by their opponent.  And this permission must be requested AND given in the BattleChat where it is clearly visible for all to see. Every time.  

 

This said, the MT is not going to scour YouTube for infractions in this area.  We won't enforce any improper publishing of games unless there is a complaint by the opponent in the game.



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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604


#16 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I strongly disagree with TemplateRex (and Napoleon 1er) here. I will explain why. The element that made Stratego such a great and distinct game is the fact that the pieces are hidden. You can surprise your opponent with new strategies which start with unique setups. I remember in my early days, starting with stratego and eager to learn from the best players around. For example I played Gpet0 (one of the great veterans) and he beated me badly with a pretty unique setup I had never seen before. That was great despite the losing. I remembered the key elements of his setup easily (cause it was a ''traumatic'' loss :)). And started to try it myself. With these strategies I became a better player on a very nice way. I think I would not enjoyed it so much if I just watched some videos of games from Gpet0 or other strong players. Its fun to surprise players and its no fun when your opponent knows exactly how you play and has an easy win because of it. Yes you have to differ your style etc. but not everybody does that or is able to do it. I still like it very much to play against players I never played before so you can surprise each other and dont know what to expect.


I do understand your point about the "surprise effect" of not knowing your opponent's style but you are not getting better because your opponent does not know your style. Personally I think with all the videos I've published and the numerous games done almost everybody knows my style, so I'm getting better precisely because as people know my style I'm forced to play with optimal technique to compensate for the disadvantage of my known style.
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#17 TemplateRex

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Posted 2 weeks ago

Videoing games cannot be stopped.  That is a possibility of technology.  However, publishing a game without permission can and should be stopped.  Individual games are the property of those involved in playing them.  Asking permission from one's opponent to publish a game is hardly a problem.  It's merely a few keystrokes.  If an answer is returned in the positive, then the game can be published.  If not, then no.  It's pretty simple.  If a guy publishing games online feels frustrated by this, that's too bad.  There are other fish in the sea.  Ask the next player.  All players should have to right to decide whether each and every game they play is published by their opponent.  And this permission must be requested AND given in the BattleChat where it is clearly visible for all to see. Every time.  

 

This said, the MT is not going to scour YouTube for infractions in this area.  We won't enforce any improper publishing of games unless there is a complaint by the opponent in the game.

 

Can you explain why Stratego is different from poker? In poker you don't need permission to publish this. Before ~2003, poker was also pretty much a backroom game, but with the pocket cam in high stakes tournaments, both the audiences and the level of play skyrocketed. 

 

Also, do you need permission to post a board diagram and analyse your own games on the forum here? I would find that bordering on the ridiculous. 

 

In chess, top players also guard their opening secrets. Most GMs have 10 or 100 times the number of analyses than they have played games. Training games are often not disclosed. But once an opening idea is used in a ranked match or tournament, the game itself is a matter of public record. Competition takes place on the board, and off the board as well (in preparation and analysis). 

 

The WCO is a giant missed opportunity IMO. Reading 37 results like 6:1, 3:3 or 1:6 is meaningless. They could just as well have drawn lots or flipped a coin to decide on a result and the audience would not be any wiser. The tree falling in the woods without anyone to see it. Stratego as a mindsports cannot be taken seriously until the top players take themselves seriously and proudly show their achievements. 


Edited by TemplateRex, 2 weeks ago.

I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#18 GaryLShelton

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Posted 2 weeks ago

TR, although both poker and Stratego are games of limited information, in poker a player hardly has a setup with 40 pieces he's strategically placed.  He has five cards, and he won't even know his pieces (cards) until they are dealt.  The games are not the same, preparation-wise, for the player.  What does a poker player have to lose in a video?  Nothing proprietary.  A chess player?  Nothing proprietary again.

 

If a Stratego player wishes to have his games videoed, that is certainly his right.  If he wishes his board setup to be published, that is also certainly his right.  If he does not wish to have these things published out in the open, that is his right as well.  These rights don't lie in the hands of the guy doing the videoing.

 

I don't see the success of the game at large as important as the confiscation of the rights of the players to have their information revealed against their will. 

 

But I will go with you this far.  The whole issue is something that probably should have the votes of those most heavily affected by the matter if it is ever to change.  The platinum players are the main ones carrying the future of the game and if they would assemble and vote, I personally would definitely defer to their wishes.  Over the years there has been a general MT position to ban videos posted without permission.  The current announced position merely continues the past one.

 


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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604


#19 TemplateRex

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Posted 2 weeks ago

TR, although both poker and Stratego are games of limited information, in poker a player hardly has a setup with 40 pieces he's strategically placed.  He has five cards, and he won't even know his pieces (cards) until they are dealt.  The games are not the same, preparation-wise, for the player.  What does a poker player have to lose in a video?  Nothing proprietary.  A chess player?  Nothing proprietary again.

 

Don't you think that a poker player's hand ranges, bet sizes and so on is very important information, developed over many hours of practice and study? Or that chess players don't exhaustively analyse openings in the knowledge that they can only use a novelty once? Stratego is not that special compared to other games with respect to the amount of effort that goes into preparation for a single game. 

 

If a Stratego player wishes to have his games videoed, that is certainly his right.  If he wishes his board setup to be published, that is also certainly his right.  If he does not wish to have these things published out in the open, that is his right as well.  These rights don't lie in the hands of the guy doing the videoing.

 

If you enter a battle field, you yield this right to privacy in my opinion. In chess and poker you'd be laughed out of the tournament hall if you would enforce privacy of game records. It's one thing to keep yet undisclosed piece a secret, like in poker, where folded hands are not revealed. But the game record itself should be public.

 

I don't see the success of the game at large as important as the confiscation of the rights of the players to have their information revealed against their will. 

 

Sorry to be blunt, but I find this a very narrow view. In terms of culture and popularity, Stratego is like poker before 2000. A few dozen top players, no money and no knowledge base to speak off. Before the turn of the century, the main event at the World Series of Poker had 1M first prize money and ~300 participants. Nowadays it's ~8M for the first prize and 8 thousand participants. Dozens of high quality books, a lifetime of videos have raised the game to levels never dreamed off before. Few of the old champions would stand a chance at the current final tables. But even so, I doubt any of them would want to go back to the good old days of backroom poker for little money.

 

I'm not saying that Stratego has a future with big money (there is also the issue of the Jumbo trademark), but I think it can have a great future as a true mindsport and game of skill for a much bigger audience than is the case now. 

 

But I will go with you this far.  The whole issue is something that probably should have the votes of those most heavily affected by the matter if it is ever to change.  The platinum players are the main ones carrying the future of the game and if they would assemble and vote, I personally would definitely defer to their wishes.  Over the years there has been a general MT position to ban videos posted without permission.  The current announced position merely continues the past one.

 

You are neglecting the potential dozens or hundreds platinum level players who don't get interested in the game right now. 


I hereby grant explicit permission to all my opponents to record and publish my games as they see fit.


#20 Losermaker

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Posted 2 weeks ago

It is unacceptable for the MT to even vote on resetting every player's account to 100. The MT's prerogative is to deal with unfair practices and abusive players. The MT has no right to alter players accounts just because they want to see a cleaner leaderboard.

 

I agree with astros here. If anything, this should be voted on by the community, not MT. Why would mt assume a decision without asking the rest of us our oppinion. This decision effects more than the 5 of them.

We held a vote to get the general feel for what amoungst ourselves we thought about the topics, doesn't mean that all these majorities are final and you guys get no say. I said to the other guys that I would like to see peoples opinions in an open poll before making something like the video rules (3-2 and quite a bit of debate went into this) final. I guess that's why this thread was created ;)


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