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#21 TemplateRex

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 07:38 PM



Now I think of it. In many situations the outcome is no different from the current rule (depending on where is the flag/ how many spaces to the flag for both miners). There often is a lucky miner too… We might need some more complex situations on board editor after all…  Maybe the rule suggesting is not changing so much as you might think.

 

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Red to move can get to blue's flag in 9 moves with E5-E6 while blue needs 10 moves. So under the ISF-rules, blue exchanges F6xE6 and obtains a draw. Without this, red has to go around the lake and can only get to the flag in 11 moves. So blue beats red to the flag by 1 move. 

 

I wouldn't call this a lucky blue win though, blue has the two-squares advantage which forces the red miner to take the detour. If it had been a blue sergeant and an open red flag:

 

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blue would also win because of the two-squares rule. 


Edited by TemplateRex, 04 September 2018 - 07:43 PM.

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#22 Wogomite

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 09:01 PM

T-Rex is much smarter than me. He explained what I could not. Well done! This is exactly why giving a win to the advantage over the final exchange takes more skill...not luck.

#23 Wogomite

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 09:09 PM

I do agree with Nortrom that the rules are fine as they are, obviously they work well because so many live and online tournaments for this lovely game have been successful without applying the proper rules to the final exchange. T-Rex and I are only stating that for one, this is a rule so many have neglected and only demands more skill and two, applying this rule would reduce the amount of draws in favour of the better skilled players. It's a shame so many people are automatically against seeing the beauty of this rule though. They say ignorance is bliss but in this case, it's only causing some to miss out.

I will implement this rule as a house rule whenever I play on the board in my own home, I believe it will cause me to captivate a type of control in the end game that will only cause me to see this game at a deeper level. Who knows, it may even enhance my online play as well...with or without the current final exchange rules :)
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#24 Don_Homer

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 10:09 PM

T-Rex is much smarter than me. He explained what I could not. Well done! This is exactly why giving a win to the advantage over the final exchange takes more skill...not luck.

These are nice examples of T-Rex but I dont agree it proves that it takes more skill. You have to see what comes before, how the situation was born. The games costed both players 32 out of 33 pieces. What is the problem if it got into a draw? 

 

I will implement this rule as a house rule whenever I play on the board in my own home, I believe it will cause me to captivate a type of control in the end game that will only cause me to see this game at a deeper level. Who knows, it may even enhance my online play as well...with or without the current final exchange rules :)

If you apply the rule you will get more experienced with it and with the differences. Maybe you will get to some complicated examples. I wonder if it would change things much. I dont think the (first) example provided by T-Rex happens often. Im curious how you think after your experiences :)

 

I wouldn't call this a lucky blue win though, blue has the two-squares advantage which forces the red miner to take the detour. If it had been a blue sergeant and an open red flag:

It depends what happened before but I think its probably a Lucky win for blue (with your suggested rule). He is just lucky that red has to move first (unless something happened that influenced this - in my experience mostly its just luck who has to move first). 

 

In your sercheant example: the sercheant also wins when blue has to move first. 


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#25 Wogomite

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 10:28 PM

I agree with a lot of what you say Don but I don't think who moves first is all as much luck as you say. Take final pieces being a Marsh vs Spy for example, the player with either knows that placing their piece in front of the other loses the game. It is not luck as both players will be intentionally preparing for this outcome. The exact same principle applies to the advantage over the final exchange rule.

#26 Don_Homer

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 11:17 PM

I agree with a lot of what you say Don but I don't think who moves first is all as much luck as you say. Take final pieces being a Marsh vs Spy for example, the player with either knows that placing their piece in front of the other loses the game. It is not luck as both players will be intentionally preparing for this outcome. The exact same principle applies to the advantage over the final exchange rule.

Its the same luck as a sercheant vs a miner in T-Rex first example: If Reds miner was a sercheant he would lose. If Blue's miner was a sercheant he would have a draw. Its a coin flip. In my experience its often luck that you cannot prepare that get you in these situations.. What is your experience? You win most of these coin flip games at the end? 


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#27 GaryLShelton

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 11:47 PM

The idea to use a tempo-gaining or losing scouting move to obtain the two-squares advantage in endgames is not new. I've commented on this theme occurring in several YouTube videos. Right now, the 1 on 1 endgame with identical pieces is the only endgame where the two-squares rule does not matter. It makes a small percentage of games drawn that could have been decisive. Fewer draws is always better IMO.

 

If one is an astute player he might take advantage of this, I have agreed, but it couldn't possibly be until later in the game.  Even if that player has the only scout and could theoretically control the advantage, sometimes the pieces are all spread out all over the board so that nothing like such analysis could be done in real time live to determine whether one had the 2S advantage already or not.  

 

Maybe I'm discounting platinum players too much, but I don't think so.   I don't think anyone could look at a screen with multiple pieces  on both sides and quickly ascertain who has the 2S upper hand.  

 

If there are any one-on-one identical piece events like my one I posted about, they will very likely end up in either lake chases (draws) or HmmNess chases (draws also). The number of times one's final piece could strike the opponent's identical final piece would be rare in my opinion and completely dependent upon one player being trapped in two squares by bombs, so that the 2S did work against that player.  



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Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...931#entry468931


#28 Wogomite

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 12:03 AM

In my experience its often luck that you cannot prepare that get you in these situations.. What is your experience? You win most of these coin flip games at the end?

If I can be honest, I am continually processing and analyzing current situation along with known/unknown info and possibilities to come depending on all of it. I feel very un comfortable when I feel as though my opponent gains control of the board so I try to prevent a luck situation from accruing before it's too late by hiding info and keeping my options open. Of course due to equal skill, lotto or the occasional blunder I'm put in a bad situation, in these cases, I guess anything can happen but I still try to use what I have to prevent luck. I rarely lose to bad luck though unless it's a good lotto player. I don't think this game has much luck if you can stay patient.




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