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2018 WTT - Round 2: United Kingdom vs Rest of the World


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#41 Losermaker

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Posted 2 weeks ago

yes I understand that, but my point is that what he did is not really "communicating" with your opponent. Merely giving times without replying to any response that is given is not the kind of communication that gets a game played. I will not argue against the commitee's decision, and I understand that its Ukboy's first tournament so we have to give him some slack for that. However as I said, perhaps a rule where after a certain number of days, if it doesnt look like the game is going to get played, have both teams main player and alternate obliged to post times, or extend round duration to 10-14 days.


Edited by Losermaker, 2 weeks ago.


#42 josephwhite

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Posted 2 weeks ago

http://forum.strateg...ngdom/?p=457151

 

ukboy007, on 25 Jun 2018 - 12:47 AM, said:snapback.png

Monday 19pm GMT
Saturday 21am GMT
Sunday 21am GMT

Happy to play on mobile and can take screen shot if need be
Thanks

 

Ukboy, I'm available now (1530gmt) until 17gmt, if you are able to play our match.

 

I have a visitor staying at my place tonight from the UK, of all places, and I don't think I can make it for the 18gmt time. However, I may make it, if it is not too discourteous to the guest.

Monday 19pm GMT
Saturday 21am GMT
Sunday 21am GMT

Happy to play on mobile and can take screen shot if need be
Thanks

 

Ukboy, I'm available now (1530gmt) until 17gmt, if you are able to play our match.



#43 Unladen Swallow

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Posted 2 weeks ago

UKBOY has arrived and is online so he will play the game with Josephwhite at 18GMT. 

 

Please be aware he plays by phone sio can not read green chat messages. Please send him a battle invite. Thanks!


Edited by Unladen Swallow, 2 weeks ago.

I used to play against a few drunken idiots in College and University. I just recently discovered this game online, playing my first matches against real-world opponents. After 100 games, I'm now one of the top 10 players in the world. 


#44 astros

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I beat Loco Luc


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#45 Unladen Swallow

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Posted 2 weeks ago

Have two screenshots from astros and myself.. showing UKBoy online and ready to play. Josephwhite was unresponsive.

 

Astros opened a game with UkBoy just to be able to chat with him; UKBoy plays via phone, and can not use the private green chat boxes there. UKBoy was ready to play from 18:00 to 18:17 GMT, (13:17 CDT as shown from astros' computer)

 

As we are short on time, I would like to request the victory be awarded by default for team GB, as Josephwhite was not here at the agreed time. 

 

https://imgur.com/a/3Xfx9at

 

https://imgur.com/a/0Knizcf


Edited by Unladen Swallow, 2 weeks ago.

I used to play against a few drunken idiots in College and University. I just recently discovered this game online, playing my first matches against real-world opponents. After 100 games, I'm now one of the top 10 players in the world. 


#46 josephwhite

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I couldn't make it at the time, as mentioned. This is a good case in point of why I have generally dropped out of tournaments - it can be so inconvenient to arrange times to play. There are often conflicts with higher priority activities.



#47 josephwhite

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Posted 2 weeks ago

As astros pointed out, ukboy007 did post his availability, but on a different topic. josephwhite was aware of that, since he replied that these times didn't suit him.

 

Major Nelson, I think your handling of this situation was ridiculous. I gave multiple alternatives to find an appropriate time to arrange the game. I just could not make the default time. I never received one response from the opponent. I'm also the substitute, so gave a chance for the main player to play before even posting my first times. I'd rather quit this tournament than play under this management.


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#48 Losermaker

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I understand that it is hard to change things during a tournament and rules are rules. But what you have basically done here is not allow 1 player to even have a chance at playing. Say for example I get matched with an opponent who's default time for gameplay is at 02:00AM. I post three slots that are all within 01:00-03:00AM for him. All valid slots. Of course he cannot play at that time, he replies back with more times, shows full effort, but I don't say anything. I show up at the default time and get to take the win. This is why I believe tournaments are run better when the committee gives a result based on effort. Take the WCO as an example, some decisions are hard to make and some people get angry, but it normally turns out alot better than this.



#49 josephwhite

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Posted 2 weeks ago

Also, what makes this even more ridiculous is that I posted 3 timeslots, later changed and added one slot and subtracted another (one of the three had already passed without a response). I specifically said I couldn't make certain timeslots. Then, a post from the opponent comes afterwards (indirectly) with 3 timeslots, one which had already passed, and the other two which were at times that I specifically stated I couldn't make. Granted, the post was made previously in another forum, but I don't think this even counts as neither I, nor my teammates, had any knowledge of this post.



#50 Major Nelson

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I couldn't make it at the time, as mentioned. This is a good case in point of why I have generally dropped out of tournaments - it can be so inconvenient to arrange times to play. There are often conflicts with higher priority activities.

Monday 19pm GMT
Saturday 21am GMT
Sunday 21am GMT
Happy to play on mobile and can take screen shot if need be
Thanks

The Organising Committee has decided to extend the deadline for this game until the end of this week.

Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is.


#51 astros

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Posted 2 weeks ago

The Organising Committee has decided to extend the deadline for this game until the end of this week.


This is ridiculous. I specifically worried about this happening, so I asked how the OC would handle this situation in an advance. You guys committed to giving us the victory if we showed up at the default time and RoW did not. We provided screenshots to prove this, so the OC needs to follow through on their announcement.

I understand why RoW is upset by this decision. However, you need to enforce the rules that you write. If the OC is not going to do that, I do not see a reason to continue participating because the tournament has no legitimacy.

Edited by astros, 2 weeks ago.

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#52 josephwhite

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Posted 2 weeks ago

This is ridiculous. I specifically worried about this happening, so I asked how the OC would handle this situation in an advance. You guys committed to giving us the victory if we showed up at the default time and RoW did not. We provided screenshots to prove this, so the OC needs to follow through on their announcement.

I understand why RoW is upset by this decision. However, you need to enforce the rules that you write. If the OC is not going to do that, I do not see a reason to continue participating because the tournament has no legitimacy.

 

Astros and Unladen Swallow, I'm losing respect for you two. Personally, I don't care about the win, just the fairness. If the win is so important to you, then take it. Astros, your statement completely contradicts what you said to me in a chat.



#53 Master Mind

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Posted 2 weeks ago

Extending this game is best for the tournament as a whole (although it might not be for some individual players), so the OC will stick to this decision.


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#54 astros

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Posted 2 weeks ago

Astros and Unladen Swallow, I'm losing respect for you two. Personally, I don't care about the win, just the fairness. If the win is so important to you, then take it. Astros, your statement completely contradicts what you said to me in a chat.

  

Extending this game is best for the tournament as a whole (although it might not be for some individual players), so the OC will stick to this decision.


Joseph, what I told you was off the record but not contradictory. Yes, I probably would have looked into giving an extension because you showed significant effort in trying to arrange the game. That said, it is not Team UK's responsibility to accommodate other players. Two players, Balorion and you, were not able to play at the default time and that ultimately falls on your team and not ours.

I am not arguing that an extension is not best for the tournament. I am upset because the OC said that they would handle this incident in a specific manner if you were unavailable. When that came to pass, they initially followed through but then decided they did not like that outcome and changed it.

A fair tournament committee cannot make rules and then change them mid-tournament because they dislike how things are playing out. Perhaps the initial ruling was poor, but changing it after the fact is patently unfair to Team UK. In my view, the only acceptable resolution is for the OC to restore the initial result.
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#55 josephwhite

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Posted 2 weeks ago

  
Joseph, what I told you was off the record but not contradictory.

 

Astros, integrity is about being consistent, whether on or off the record. I respected your view "off the record" stating that you sympathised with our situation but that you would not argue our case publicly as it would be against your team's interest. I would assume this means being silent on the issue publicly, as opposed to fighting for something that you don't agree with.

 

Yes, I probably would have looked into giving an extension because you showed significant effort in trying to arrange the game. That said, it is not Team UK's responsibility to accommodate other players.

 

I disagree. I believe that it is our responsibility to find times that are mutually agreeable, even more so when I explicitly stated that I couldn't make the default time. There was no effort on your side to accommodate. It seems you would rather win at all costs than enjoy playing competitive games.

 

Two players, Balorion and you, were not able to play at the default time and that ultimately falls on your team and not ours.

 

Note that I'm the backup, so I don't think we had any other option. Again, it speaks to the desire to win at all costs.

I am not arguing that an extension is not best for the tournament. I am upset because the OC said that they would handle this incident in a specific manner if you were unavailable. When that came to pass, they initially followed through but then decided they did not like that outcome and changed it.

 

This is the only comment that you made that I think is reasonable. However, the TC may not have understood the whole context until we raised an issue after the fact. Regardless, I think they were acting in the best interests of sportsmanship and the tournament as a whole.

A fair tournament committee cannot make rules and then change them mid-tournament because they dislike how things are playing out. Perhaps the initial ruling was poor, but changing it after the fact is patently unfair to Team UK. In my view, the only acceptable resolution is for the OC to restore the initial result.

 

If you want to be nitpicky about rules - firstly, the player never posted in the forum as required. Secondly, the reposted item did not include 3 valid timeslots. The fact that you insist on the previous resolution being reinstated shows that you don't care about sportsmanship.

 

As I said before, I don't care about the win, and you are welcome to take it since that seems to be your focus.


Edited by josephwhite, 2 weeks ago.


#56 astros

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Posted 2 weeks ago

 

  
Joseph, what I told you was off the record but not contradictory.

 

Astros, integrity is about being consistent, whether on or off the record. I respected your view "off the record" stating that you sympathised with our situation but that you would not argue our case publicly as it would be against your team's interest. I would assume this means being silent on the issue publicly, as opposed to fighting for something that you don't agree with.

 

I have been consistent. I believe that the OC initially handled this situation poorly but are now making it worse by doing back on their announcement after your team complained. If they did not understand the ramifications of their initial decision, then that further speaks to how big of a screw up this is.

 

I also think it is weak for you to repeat comments, that I stand by, but indicated were private in order to comment on my integrity.

 

Yes, I probably would have looked into giving an extension because you showed significant effort in trying to arrange the game. That said, it is not Team UK's responsibility to accommodate other players.

 

I disagree. I believe that it is our responsibility to find times that are mutually agreeable, even more so when I explicitly stated that I couldn't make the default time. There was no effort on your side to accommodate. It seems you would rather win at all costs than enjoy playing competitive games.

 

Two players, Balorion and you, were not able to play at the default time and that ultimately falls on your team and not ours.

 

Note that I'm the backup, so I don't think we had any other option. Again, it speaks to the desire to win at all costs.

 

RoW had two players who could have played this game. Since neither of those players could play at the default time or the six hours of slots that Ukboy provided, albeit poorly, it is not really Team UK's job to accommodate you further. However, as I stated on Saturday, I would not have objected to the OC announcing an extension prior to Sunday because you did make a significant effort to schedule the game.

I am not arguing that an extension is not best for the tournament. I am upset because the OC said that they would handle this incident in a specific manner if you were unavailable. When that came to pass, they initially followed through but then decided they did not like that outcome and changed it.

 

This is the only comment that you made that I think is reasonable. However, the TC may not have understood the whole context until we raised an issue after the fact. Regardless, I think they were acting in the best interests of sportsmanship and the tournament as a whole.

 

Again, I am not criticizing the extension but the fact that I foresaw this exact situation arising, took steps to prevent it and still have to deal with the OC bungling it.

A fair tournament committee cannot make rules and then change them mid-tournament because they dislike how things are playing out. Perhaps the initial ruling was poor, but changing it after the fact is patently unfair to Team UK. In my view, the only acceptable resolution is for the OC to restore the initial result.

 

If you want to be nitpicky about rules - firstly, the player never posted in the forum as required. Secondly, the reposted item did not include 3 valid timeslots. The fact that you insist on the previous resolution being reinstated shows that you don't care about sportsmanship.

 

As I said before, I don't care about the win, and you are welcome to take it since that seems to be your focus.

 

I made several attempts to get UKboy to provide slots and get the game played last week. What you may not be aware of is that UKboy rarely checks in on the forum and plays on his phone so I can only talk to him in game, therefore I have to spend a significant amount of my own time helping him arrange tournament games. However, I am going to be out of town this weekend and unable to help him, so this game likely becomes a loss for Team UK.

 

I will openly admit that winning is the most important thing to me in an online game. I will not cheat or act duplicitous in order to win, but you are correct that I would rather win a trophy than a sportsmanship award.

 


Edited by astros, 2 weeks ago.

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#57 Wogomite

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I understand the oc has mistakenly spoke regarding the result of this match. Technically according to our own rules we were unable to award a default win anyway
Rule 14C says:


"Please note that it is not possible to claim victory if your opponent does not show up ..., the match will be rescheduled to another week (provided that the team is not disqualified)."

we went with this original rule after it was brought to attention BECAUSE of integrity, not despite it.

#58 astros

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Posted 2 weeks ago

I understand the oc has mistakenly spoke regarding the result of this match. Technically according to our own rules we were unable to award a default win anyway
Rule 14C says:


"Please note that it is not possible to claim victory if your opponent does not show up ..., the match will be rescheduled to another week (provided that the team is not disqualified)."

we went with this original rule after it was brought to attention BECAUSE of integrity, not despite it.

I am fine with an extension under these circumstances because it is in the rules. However, the fact that that was not cited when the extension was granted by Major Nelson leads me to believe you guys did it because you did not like the result.


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#59 Wogomite

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Posted 2 weeks ago

Major nelson posted our decision after the prof brought this rule to our attention. As I understand major nelson forgetting to mention this rule could appear as though it was not our motivating factor. I assure you, finding this in the rules was indeed our only determining reason for the extension.

#60 astros

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Posted 2 weeks ago

Ukboy can play from 8 to 11 and 18 to 20 GMT on Saturday and Sunday.


Edited by astros, 2 weeks ago.

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