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Remembering Pieces.


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#1 Fks

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Posted 4 weeks ago

Hey everyone I was looking through some Archived posts and chanced apon finding this http://forum.strateg...ard/#entry16618.
A guide on how to remember pieces, "Hiltonchess" Suggests in the guide he posted his Idea of how to remember pieces better. I wonder how people now remember all pieces that have been moved and which is what.
I personally don't have a problem with this. The only time I will forget something is if I wasn't looking at my opponents movements for a short period of time, which lately I have been doing a lot ;)

If anyone is having trouble with this, I have felt it will make it so much easier to remember what is moved by just saying it aloud, so when you next think of it your memory will come back.
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#2 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 4 weeks ago

...in chess remembering last moves is not useful while in Stratego it is of prime importance. In chess the best players are those who can predict more moves than their opponent (top chess players I heard can predict up to 12 moves or more) while in Stratego it helps but because there are so much more move possibilities than in chess it becomes almost impossible to predict more than 4-5 moves.


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#3 DeepLimbo

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Posted 4 weeks ago

Thank you Fks for bringing this interesting topic once more under our attention. The original post from Hiltonchess assumes a lot of comparison between chess and Stratego, and surely there are parallels.

 

However as a 2200+ chess player myself, I think some caution is advised in over-comparing these two games, as there are also some striking differences, as already demonstrated by Napoleon 1er and others. I am personally of the opinion, that Stratego is in general enormously undervalued as a game, while it has so many interesting aspects and skills to master, e.g.:

 

* use of incomplete information

* absolute vs relative value

* tactics

* strategy

* bluffing

* deduction

* risk management

* pattern recognition

* psychology

* and finally, this topic: memorization

 

Memorization is of course much more than just remembering pieces, it can expand to all kind of things, for example remembering your opponents style and preferences from previous encounters, or remembering where a piece comes from or how it 'behaved' to make an educated guess about its value.

 

But apart from that, the main distinction is as Fks pointed out, between what (unknown) pieces have moved or not and if so, which is what (known pieces). The discussion seems to focus on the first more static memory, and some good suggestions were made, like Hiltonchess' chunking and The Profs bomb-free regions.

 

However, I think the importance of the latter, more dynamic memory, is not to be underestimated. How many games have been lost because one player found out a major piece and than forgetting it? The moment you scout such a piece you know it is essential you remember it. So the initial moments after its discovery your concentration is probably at its peak.

 

It is all a beautiful world until it actually starts moving. Sometimes just one square, sometimes the shuffling begins. Maybe you speak to yourself: that is the marshall - haha, you can't fool me! But then something interesting happens at the other side of the board which demands your immediate attention. And when some time later the action changes again to the original place, you realize that you have forgotten. It could be that piece. It should be. But is it?

 

Just the doubt alone (That was the marshall, right...?!) is killing. You feel silly. There was really one piece you had to remember, and even that was to much to handle. Now comes the next question. Do you scout it again, openly acknowledging your failure, or do you trust your gut feeling, possibly leading to major losses? Psychologically you are already in a very tough spot. Most of the time, it only goes downhill from here.

 

The point is: remembering moving pieces is far more difficult than static pieces or formations. Even more, because in Stratego, you are multi-tasking between all the aforementioned game skills. At the same time you are remembering that general on the right, you are defending against an attack on your left wing, using the two-square rule. Therefore if you have difficulties memorizing, I would strongly suggest to focus on the two most important dynamic pieces (for example a known marshall and general). When in serious doubt, especially when you are in the lead and have everything to lose, put your proud feelings aside and scout it again. Better safe than sorry.


Edited by DeepLimbo, 4 weeks ago.

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#4 Wogomite

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Posted 4 weeks ago

DeepLimbo, what a great post. Memorization of not forgetting known pieces is the most demanding part of the game once you learn the game, and if you want to consistently win with your game knowledge. If your not in the mood to remember pieces and you want to win, don't play.

#5 DeepLimbo

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Posted 4 weeks ago

Thank you.

 

Maybe one more suggestion, regarding the "how" to remember moving pieces. The moment the action changes to another side of the board away from the piece you try to remember, I would suggest you pause one brief moment to make a mental picture of the situation. Tell yourself: now the marshall is in the back of this triangle, or at the moment the general is on the second row, fifth from the left. Whatever works for you. The moment the action shifts back to this zone, you recall the picture and start following it again until its next stop.



#6 Wogomite

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Posted 4 weeks ago

Maybe these are techniques that should be saved as a treasure chest at the end of a hunt but I'm generous. I'll share part of...my treasure chest. 

 

I was reading up on what FKS posted and looked at the relation to chunking from Chess to Stratego. Due to chess not needing skill in memory for revelation of a rank obviously chunking is referring to something other than memory of a moving piece. Chunking seems to fit the skill set of remembering piece (rank) sequence. What I mean can refer to hundreds of different possibilities being controlled through placement of a rank sequence. This does not have to be three pieces back to back but that is the idea done a tremendous amount of different ways. Using the two square, the boundaries of the boarders (including the lakes), bluff and the proper understanding of using known information, you can essentially make a mine field with your board but that sounds defensive, I'm actually referring to a way to strike and defend all at the same time with chunking. Sub consciously knowing where to put your pieces to ready an attack but safely and with the primary purpose to gain info and pieces equally while defending securely. Chunking is doing this without having to examine intently the possibilities of every move consciously but maybe just a few times a game.   The player learning will go through that process consciously without the leisure of chunking.  Chunking would be the equivalent to what the masters in chess do with combinations that someone starting out would have no learned knowledge of specific outcomes. It becomes second nature but of course the detail great chunkers would recognize and act according to would be tremendously overwhelming to comprehend at one time. It does take time and a lot of it to learn anything that well. And that is for the player that tries to fully learn in humility every game, not the lotto that thinks 1000 marsh blitzes will be what teaches him anything. A final comment on chunking. Chunking in a more complete form for Stratego would be to get to the point that you can attack simultaneously and in harmony in all three of your lanes while never forgetting ANY known piece including a measly sgt.  The more aggressive you can do this with logic and an intelligent way, the better. You gotta know when to defend though. Sometimes you have to suck up your pride in a lane you have controlled all game and let it go. Adapt and go with the flow. 

 

Know this, remembering a piece does not just tell you what it is, it also tells you what it's not in the end of a game when it charges at your colonel thinking you forgot what it is. Did you forget...could that be his unknown Marshal? Did I find that piece already?!?... Good thing you remember it was just a sgt... :)


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#7 Dobby125

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Posted 4 weeks ago

DeepLimbo, what a great post. Memorization of not forgetting known pieces is the most demanding part of the game once you learn the game, and if you want to consistently win with your game knowledge. If your not in the mood to remember pieces and you want to win, don't play.

 

Yup.  One of the reasons I play Stratego is to help improve my memory.  I still suffer from some side effects from chronic lyme disease.  There are some days/weeks where I can’t even play Stratego because my memory or ability to focus, plan and concentrate are just not good enough to play.  If you’re having a bad memory concentration day, don’t play.

 

I really hate when my top pieces get revealed early in the game.  But after watching lots of live streams/videos on youtube, you notice how easy it is for players to forget revealed pieces… even the marshal.  And yes, I've scouted a revealed Marshal 1 or more times in a game all the time(better safe than sorry).  I believe I once scouted a captain 3 times in a 5 minute span.  I think I still won the game, but that's terrible game play.  It really gets you mad when you do stuff like that since every piece is important.

 

If your marshal or general gets revealed early in the game, pull it back to your side and move several pieces around it. Shuffle those pieces, then start attacking on the other side of the board and take your time doing it.  Distractions and shuffling really do work on confusing your opponent.  I remember several top players on the forum mentioned how they hate it when players shuffle their revealed Marshal.  That tells you that it really works. 


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#8 Fks

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Posted 4 weeks ago

Thank you all for your post :)

I was always in the belief my opponent would always remember all my pieces and moved untill recently I have been trying to shuffle around my known pieces for a few moves at random times and in a recent tournament match I was awarded a colonel from my previously known Marshal. So great tip Dobby :)
Great post Deeplimbo and wogomite as well :)
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#9 ghostshadow0

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Posted 4 weeks ago

Thank you all for your post :)

I was always in the belief my opponent would always remember all my pieces and moved untill recently I have been trying to shuffle around my known pieces for a few moves at random times and in a recent tournament match I was awarded a colonel from my previously known Marshal. So great tip Dobby :)
Great post Deeplimbo and wogomite as well :)

I think it was due to the few beers and paula abdul in her prime on tv...plus the dull color you used.  When you look away towards the tv and back to the screen, the color of your pieces blended all together so i forgot.  


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#10 Fks

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Posted 4 weeks ago

I think it was due to the few beers and paula abdul in her prime on tv...plus the dull color you used.  When you look away towards the tv and back to the screen, the color of your pieces blended all together so i forgot.

Funny enough I wasn't talking about our game. After I shuffled my marsh vs you I netted a luit. Later on you just walked a colonel in to his loving arms :) But in a different game I had my opponent think my col was my known Marsh and my Marsh was my colonel Due to just shuffleing them when I had the free moves.
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#11 Thucydides_Olorou

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Posted 4 weeks ago

I think that from the time that a piece is discovered it should stay discovered. It's a silly rule that memory comes into play and makes the game less strategical and more like a memory game sometimes.



#12 Master Mind

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Posted 4 weeks ago

I think that from the time that a piece is discovered it should stay discovered. It's a silly rule that memory comes into play and makes the game less strategical and more like a memory game sometimes.

 

Memory is just a big part of the entire game. Making pieces known when discovered would make the game senseless.


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#13 Major Nelson

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Posted 4 weeks ago

I think that from the time that a piece is discovered it should stay discovered. It's a silly rule that memory comes into play and makes the game less strategical and more like a memory game sometimes.

I want memory to remain a part of the game, although I have to admit that the change you propose would be the end of shufflers. :)
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#14 Wogomite

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Posted 4 weeks ago

I think the people that are exceptional at remembering pieces like that aspect of the game. When I promote the game where I live and play people live, I give people the option of playing piece reveal for them only. I tell them "I don't want you to have to worry about memory because it will only hinder you playing Stratego." I tell them "when I play a top player online, I play them knowing they won't forget a single piece. I will play allowing you the same benefit." If you think about it, it makes the average player you play make logical moves and not dumb ones because they can't forgot your pieces. It makes it more exciting and challenging against players that know nothing of the game. When it comes to official matches, you better believe I am gladly playing with hidden pieces :)

A trick for people who have a hard time with memory. Just keep looking at the pieces and recalling them out loud as fks said or in your head every turn or every time it moves at the very least.
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#15 Thucydides_Olorou

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Posted 4 weeks ago

Memory is just a big part of the entire game. Making pieces known when discovered would make the game senseless.

I totally disaagree. Most of us strarted and continue playing this game because of it's strategic nature and not for the memory part. It's silly when a piece is revealed and then again going hidden,it's a paradox.

Assuming that a human plays with a computer or two computers playing with each other,does the computer have complete information of where the known piece is, and if not, does it ''forget'' and how much and when it forgets?Voila the paradox.

It's just a bad rule.I know people don't easily change their habbits and i don't expect it to happen to stratego community either.



#16 Thucydides_Olorou

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Posted 4 weeks ago

I want memory to remain a part of the game, although I have to admit that the change you propose would be the end of shufflers. :)

Major Nelson in your level memory is rarely an issue at all.But i don't think that the change of this rule would change a lot at least in the top level. 



#17 Master Mind

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Posted 4 weeks ago

I totally disaagree. Most of us strarted and continue playing this game because of it's strategic nature and not for the memory part. It's silly when a piece is revealed and then again going hidden,it's a paradox.

Assuming that a human plays with a computer or two computers playing with each other,does the computer have complete information of where the known piece is, and if not, does it ''forget'' and how much and when it forgets?Voila the paradox.

It's just a bad rule.I know people don't easily change their habbits and i don't expect it to happen to stratego community either.

 

Stratego is certainly a game with a lot of strategic and tactical aspects. However, that doesn't mean there are more things involved, like the memory part. Stratego isn't stratego when pieces stay revealed. If any function is left out from any game, it makes the game completely different and in most cases it takes away the joy of playing.

 

Major Nelson in your level memory is rarely an issue at all.But i don't think that the change of this rule would change a lot at least in the top level. 

 

Again, what you are saying is not true. As you increase in rank, memory is going to play a more and more important part in gameplay. For myself, I know I have a pretty good memory (no bragging intended), which is same for top players like Nortrom and Hielco. If the memory aspect would be left out, I wouldn't be able to play a normal game, given your play and even your playing style is based on memory (e.g. trapping a piece revealed long ago). For me, the game wouldn't be fun at all.


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#18 The Prof

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Posted 4 weeks ago

There is much more to remember than just pieces that you have found.  That's just the first item on the list below:

 

1. Opponent's pieces that have been revealed

2. Opponent's pieces that have moved

3.  One's own pieces that have moved or been revealed.

4.  Opponent's pieces about which you have suspicions.

5.  One's pieces you have used to bluff your opponent.

6.  The initial location of opponent's pieces (since this reveals info when neighboring pieces become known)

 

This list does not even touch on additional things to remember if you are playing someone you played before, like playing style and set-up tendencies.  So, even if you make it so that revealed pieces remain visible, players would still have items #2 to #6 to remember, and #6 is quite a challenge.  Since memory is such a big part of the game, it's hard to see a justification for removing one specific aspect of it.


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#19 Wogomite

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Posted 2 weeks ago

Prof, this is the best description of anything I have seen regarding the different needs for memory in Stratego. 

 

Not sure if anyone has access to the 'apple store' anywhere but if you do, there is a game that a lot of you sound like your looking for. It is Stratego that remembers your pieces and it's called "Galaxy Wars". The easiest way to find it is to type in Stratego and look for Galaxy Wars. 

This is neat because there is a ranking system. 






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