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The Past of the MT


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#1 Lonello

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 09:44 AM

Dear community, mind I was never going to return here to 'say my piece', had all bookmarks deleted, finished with everything, but things have unravelled these days to such an explosive level, there just could be no way to abandon all the very many good guys on this forum without knowing what happened. In recent days I got many questions like

"If they were going to do this then why now and not weeks ago?
I am beyond disappointed.... the mob has already moved to their next set of demands, Morx has made veiled threats, and Strategodale continues."

So I learned FU still exists, and then I checked the MT-thread to learn below revelation on which no reaction came, even after bumping the question and giving every ample opportunity.... then there was no way around it anymore as to return. The pieces of a puzzle (I could not believe myself) have now come together, so one last time I offered to be the whistleblower as the community deserves to know the truth. That's why I called this thread "The Past of MT".

As I did it before. The true insiders who know called me brave for exposing Nortrom/Morx. Every prediction I did in "The Future of MT"-thread has come out. They said to purge us all and they would stop at nothing. Then they started to take us out one by one. This has all happened before, and always will. They will kill a forum and then seize the ruine that is left. Many, very many, good contributors have left the forum for good now as they were so fed up with all their warmongering... and ofcourse that nothing was done about it from our side. That blaim is on us.

I started a postcount back then and Nortrom was in it's 1000-something while Morx was in his 100-ish. Check now and (not counting their little PB-clique) they've produced about a whopping 1000 posts in such a short while... while it's off-season for them so normally they would be at just a few. It's my 1 post here against a 1000, but also any regular's post.

That is a true fillibuster. Regular members would try to reason with a post. But any level-headed post got swamped by a ton of theirs. And every day new vicious threads were opened. People were so fed up with it, they stopped writing alltogether as it's just so futile to react. In the end it was just Morx talking to Nortrom and vice-versa.

So what happened?

There had been nothing going on for the whole month. Things started to return to the calm we had been after for such a long time. You will not find a post of mine for a month here. I didn't want to repeat myself and didn't want to let myself be provoked, so I kept my cool as well. MT had a good way forward and Nortrom and Morx were just talking to eachother.

All bad innuendo aside, it was not mine but a plan of Toby that was to be the way forward. Team-Elections. I myself was against it at first. I didn't want a burden on our newcomer MTinsley. It just didn't seem fair to me to have him in the heat at the very first moment, from the start. Today by the way, you see I was right. If you volunteer for an MT-job today you can fully expect you get the blast. This morning I was alarmed to that effect which gave me the final push for this thread.

When MTinsley was in, I did join the majority to have Toby's plan executed. However although we finally had 4 votes to execute the plan, Gary remained mordicus against. Nevertheless we were finalizing the plan with Toby and MTinsley wanting to change the requirements a bit more on which I had a compromize proposed for both.

I had also proposed to introduce maximum terms for any MT-member. I am a strong believer not to 'stick to your seat' which is a dictator's treat. In my country 4 year terms are normal. I've fulfilled many Team-jobs in my life, all very satisfactory volunteer-jobs but my principle is always: after you've completed your term, let the next pitch in and do the chores. In the end everybody needs to do equally as much.

Ofcourse on this site it's a little bit different but still the same principle should hold. My personal objective, of which I was very frank with entering MT, was foremost to tackle the square rules problem and bugs. Not the endless 13 points here, 13 points there. As this site will never get out of Beta, only the tiresome verdicts remained for a job though.

That, and the never ending aliases. I am the most transparant person. Even got my head on the avatar. Never go 'hiding behind the door' as the PB-clique abuses their Private statusses, never would vote on myself or upgrade my status, never hold dirty campaigns behind people's backs, but just be open and honest. By the way, I just checked and almost all candidates today have aliases or Private statusses and I would not elect any of those.

Al of that is un-Staffmanlike behavior. I wouldn't elect any hiding alias. I find MT-members must take the highest ground. I always tried myself. If it wasn't enough it wasn't enough. If it was too much it was too much. I at least tried to do the right thing, and overall fight the bullies.

In my time I have saved or at least tried to save many members from witch hunts or unjustified attacks. Just to mention a very few: Max, Fairway and Juniors, TheOptician, Swallow & KMC, all of them I protected. The last two it was very ironic to check back the petition Fairway and me pulled up for them. Morx and Nortrom are in there and said not 1 good word for them. Nothing. Dead cold. To them, they might as well be PB'd. Ofcourse later they could nicely use them as their puppets and as recalled by the community, turn into The Mob. Or as I called them, the Puppet-Bench-clique.

About my resignation, I already said publicly I was next up and that I would not overterm Napoleon. He was in for much longer than 4 years ofcourse. What I did not say publicly was that I internally offered my resignation at least three times. I was going for a final date with 4 years in service as the good term for any volunteer, so I would be leaving shortly but wanting to sit the warmongerings-phase out as not to corrupt MT.

I said I wanted to help out during Gary's and MTinsley's coming hiatusses (both had let us know they were to be absent for many weeks in a row) so that meant leaving by the end of July for me when all had come to a good pass. Gary could even lit some fireworks to cheer me out and I would have been sitting exactly 4 years then.

I also remarked this to Max. I said the same thing to him, and added the option to why not add a temporary 6th member in MT already. We could groom such a 6th member in the relative quiet and then all would have been perfect to leave with Gary's and MTinsley's return, and there would be no capitulation to The Mob.

This is custom in MT. We always ask the one leaving to suggest a replacement. And Max as a successor would be full circle. As after all, I had replaced him back in the day! He was very young then but he would be perfectly suited to the job today. Since he had hinted on the public forum that he would be in for the job, I PM'd him about my plan.

All fine and well, and a logical choice I would think as Max is one of the Founding Fathers of MT you may say, and Dutch, but the part about the 4 year terms was ofcourse reigning over my grave. It would not come down on me but on the next: Gary. So coming back to the original question I got put to me by several members ("Why now?"), we found out why.

In The Night With The Long Knifes Gary came in for the kill on not me alone but on the entire Dutch Staff. There had nothing been going on for weeks, all peace and quiet, and we were just finalizing the above plans, then out of the blue Gary popped the procedure to exclude me. The single explanation can be he feared my legacy.

One other thing I must add here is that I had been fighting Gary for weeks on the Dutch matter. He wanted to demote them, and also the entire female Staff for that matter, to regular status. At least Queenbee got some form of communique about it but the 3 Dutch TM's got nothing but just killed in the night, together with my demotion.

To those unaware, Symmetric was a perfect MT-member and she also helped tremendously with the Clean Ranking. Max as I said is one of our Founding Fathers and very much active on this forum today, as was Symmetric reportedly active very recently as well. By the life of me I do not understand how you can deny them the Honorary Status but I kept getting a firm no from Gary. He left that discussion for The Night and resolved it all in once.

One day before this Night I had also proposed to let the experienced Dutch speak in, finally, as it always was a bit awkward to have one warmongeringsphase all about the Dutch, but never to hear their side. They remained absent, and if they did want to share, they were stopped, as for instance when another mature Dutch, Have Fun, appeared on the forum trying to say something opposing to Nortrom, Gary simply refused to Approve him so the community could not see.

Have Fun tried several times but got such a hard no from Gary he said to leave the site forever. It was that a day later the rest of MT pitched in and we did Approve, but the whole affair Gary started did decide for him not to return. If you're bullied away like Ouwesok and Have Fun have been as they didn't serve the right agenda, for Gary there was just one plan: to frustrate them. Where Nortrom could never get so much as a scratch on him for what he pulled, Gary often argued punishment on Ouwesok for instance, and many times hid his posts.

Even posts already liked by MT-members, as for instance Major had liked one of these posts, he still hid. That is just something you do not do as MT-member. Then he also started hiding me finally. This was the final hide, and that was after MTinsley had suggested I speak up and defend myself publicly. We were to announce that we would have no more of the FU interference on the two MT-topics, so I announced it and gave a small reaction after many weeks of silence. Within the hour however Gary hid it.

The Plan apparantly was to keep it hush-hush and go for a Night with Long Knives. He invoked the procedure and the unexpected outcome was worded by Toby, who directly said he was solidair resigning himself too.

Before any of MT knew it, Gary immediately jumped to the announcement on the public forum, directly followed by a like of Nortrom. The word was out! I asked to rebuttle as there were several matters pending, and actually hid that post, but Gary simply unhid it again. Then the other MT-members started waking up. They were not glad with this at all. This was not how it was supposed to go. Everybody said we needed to discuss this and at that point nobody understood why Gary was in such a panic mode, jumping to close his deal.

I got tossed away by Gary like the other Dutch Staffmembers, denying to grant me as much as the Honorary Status. He fought this up to Admin, although the rest of MT spoke in against all this vendictiveness. The only thing the Honoraries got is the black letters. That's all. It's sweet. It's nice. It's nothing, too. "If there was no way around it" there would be this status for me in the end, yet not for the other three. Mob rules.

The reason for the vote was simple fatigue. Toby explained it well on the public forum, http://forum.strateg.../icon_share.png hopes up for a quick fix. If you are terrorized for such a long time you will try any solution in the end. Yet the warmongering continues up to today as I was pointed at this morning.

I understand people getting tired after 6 months of warfare. It's their MO for years and they've perfectioned it, even to a greater extent than I warned for. Which I tend to do in wallpapers like this one, and that is what people grow tired of too. I do realize that but I'm afraid that is my MO. It costs me my head but at least I've done everything from my part then.

There was still no explanation for Gary's abrupt behavior though, but then Danis exposed everything:
 

danis_p_gr said:22 apr. (6 dagen geleden)

I am really disappointed of the way you handled in the end Lonello `s case. No matter how hard it was, he didn't deserve this. You should at least inform him for the outcome of the the voting and give him the option to resign and save his dignity. You decided to fire him in a very dishonorable and rapid way, with a disgraceful announcement like he was the same with the jerks we fight in the site. 
"Following the procedure at Article 1.4 today, the MT took an internal vote and voted to demote Lonello to regular member status. Pending admin action his moderator status, color and powers, will be removed."
I am really sorry for this, I am really sorry for all of you guys who didn't react to this announcement and especially sorry and disappointed for you Gary for your actions...
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Lonello,

danis_p_gr has replied to a personal conversation entitled "Open Channel MT March 2018".

danis_p_gr said:
It is more than obvious that there is a "deep throat" inside MT. Surprisingly for me, Nortrom approached me yesterday via PM in an attempt(?) to make peace with me or to try to stop me from criticize him publicly. We had a talk in which I expressed my opinion for what has happened and of course I told him I find his plan unethical and based on his personal ambitions and plans. What surprised me the most though was when I found out that he knew things that were impossible to know without "inside information". And even worse, when I asked him if he honestly believe that he can cooperate with the rest of MT or vise versa, after all this mess, he revealed me his full plan and thoughts, were I believe you should know them:
(Me)-Let' s say you make it and become an MT member. Do you really think that you can cooperate and work as a team with the current members? And vice versa? Can they work with you in harmony after all this mess and critisism? Or do you think that there should be a whole new MT team?

(Nortrom) -As for the best solution, I don't know what THE best solution would be. It wouldn't be great having to replace Gary. MTinsley, even though I don't approve of him being added to the MT as he was already "sucking up" ;) for a while "More of the same" I suppose can stay too.For tober I don't care, 'honorary member' status would be ok. I'm undecided about MN, but he's also doing a poor job in the debate vs Fks / Wogomite. Anyway, what I've said in the past, is that I'd choose a new MT over the current 5. This is about the team, not the individuals. I've brought this nuance to the table a few times too, but I think it was overlooked

(Me) -For the MT part, I think you are a little bit overconfident to think that you can demote all of the current MT members and install your own team. It confirms my thoughts of you hijacking the forum and making a coup in order to gain full power. You believe it is for the best of the site, I believe it is unethical the way you acted and act and it is for fulfilling your personal ambitions and ego. I just don't know if there is anybody who can stop you know that you eliminated your 2 mainly and most important opponents, Napoleon and Lonello!

(Nortrom) - One thing I don't understand, I was informed about tober's resignation.. but that seems to be cancelled. Did they also try to persuade you into staying on MT? like they did with major nelson and now, apparently, tober

(Me) - Toby made a statement, not very clear though, in the channel between MT members and some of ex stuff like me and The Prof.(we also have the role of Special Liaison, SL, so we participate in this channel in an advisory role). If you know this information for Toby, I wonder who is the "deep throat"...

(Nortrom) - :) like I said, some people are well informed.



So the plan was perfectly organized and executed with inside help, and apparently it will be successful. Maybe we should guess who could this "insider" be... 

Of course I understand that nothing is secret here anymore, so I guess what I told you will be known to Nortrom, but I really don't care, the masks are off as I said publicly. Just so much disappointment...
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Lonello,

danis_p_gr has replied to a personal conversation entitled "Open Channel MT March 2018".

danis_p_gr said:

So they used you Gary, they used you like the "trojan horse" I mentioned. They knew very well that by getting down Lonello would cause more MT members to leave. Their plan was perfect! They got Toby, maybe MN... How about you Gary? Will you stay now and work with them? The plan was perfect and was fully revealed:

 

(Nortrom) -As for the best solution, I don't know what THE best solution would be. It wouldn't be great having to replace Gary. MTinsley, even though I don't approve of him being added to the MT as he was already "sucking up" ;) for a while "More of the same" I suppose can stay too.For tober I don't care, 'honorary member' status would be ok. I'm undecided about MN, but he's also doing a poor job in the debate vs Fks / Wogomite. Anyway, what I've said in the past, is that I'd choose a new MT over the current 5. This is about the team, not the individuals. I've brought this nuance to the table a few times too, but I think it was overlooked

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I was stunned. But everything finally came together. I repeated in recent months constantly how snippets of info could come to light. They guess well, I always thought. But now we found out Gary was sneaking behind our backs to consult Nortrom/Morx.

It's not that we had no signs, I actually demanded multiple times not to have bilaterals as that is the way we have always acted for all these years in MT. We open up to The Team and be our impartial self. But Gary always simply ignored as he did every related question, and then there would be another subject arising, and the topic dropped. MT is quite busy, you know.

And I'm not paranoid so I just never imagined Gary had steeped to this level. I have always repeteadly said MT-members have the highest moral exemplary behavior, MT-members do not lie and are open and transparant. I stack my hand in the fire for our principles. So to have this level of deception was truly amazing to me.

We gave Gary every opportunity to react. I bumped the question. He simply refuses to answer about it. The only thing left is again to whistleblow, like I did in the Future Thread, and not in the Past Thread.

Looking back, it all makes sense. I recollected how strange it was back in the day how cold Gary was with Napoleon's departure, and offer before that. He could only after pressing very hard say a few mere words not to resign, after everyone had pitched in, he had no other option. It was like pulling a tooth. And that was supposed to be his friend in MT, but who the PB-clique demanded out. It was even to me very disappointed to see Gary's reactions towards him. This was just part of the Masterplan, that is very clear now.

I was also the only one to engage Napoleon in asking him to stay on as SL. Nobody else joined me, but ofcourse especially not Gary. Later on he was promoted into the WTT and from me he got a "special cheering thread" on the General Forumpart for all he has done for the site, and he got the Honorary Title from me graciously. One would have expected all that coming from Gary, but nothing.

And looking back, everybody has witnessed this, it was enormously strange as Gary not so much as tended one word to all the warmongering the last 6 months. Nothing whatsoever. How strange was it he never took one single thing for The Team? Never, once. Although HE was the cause of all the angry. All the enflaming.

This is the huge irony here. Nortrom/Morx still do not know this. They are in strong believe it were Napoleon (Nortrom) and Major (Morx). While it was Gary to flipflop on the Gravon issue which enraged Morx, and Gary to edit and hide Nortrom's posts, in the Fake University Awards Ceremonies. That's what all started this.

Last year things were still pretty much in check. The one thing I did outside The Team was to actually vote in favor of a post of Nortrom about the square rules as only MT-member (the poll only astros voted against ans the rest in favor). That must have seemed a bit off because it was criticism at MT but I was justified as it was the single demand I had already placed when joining MT, and I said nothing in there. But it was that important that I could show a diverting signal.

Later Nortrom actually published the entire PM he had with MT which lead to his conclusion about the Dutch Railways, and you can indeed clearly see the endless "Gary ponder". By that time it was free bank to publish whatever you like despite our own rules too, by the way. It has always been my frustration that we never upheld our own rules, and in all generosity it has been Nortrom and Morx to point that out.

Over their 1000 posts they should have had hundreds of WP's. They tested the limits, the boundaries, and found there to be none. I was always the one in MT to hammer on proper procedures. I'm no rulefethist but if you got them, you must deal accordingly. Otherwise change them. But despite our rule-man (I always used to use Gary's link on his own profile to point the rules out) we never had a rule counted.

Basic line was we are fine with controversies on the forum, thus allow everything. Napoleon many times asked for action for the serious harassment he was under, even up to Admin. And so did many regular members ask us to act. To do something. But I was on Toby's line to best keep everything transparant and for the community to judge. Freedom of Speech for all.

In hainsight that was underestimating the warmongering though. We didn't know Gary was under cahoots with Nortrom and Morx. When I finally came under attack, moral ground dictates the rest of MT respond. Mostly Toby did all he could, but ofcourse Gary was awohl, and we had two newbees in MT of whom we could hardly expect to throw them before the lions.

And yes, although I even didn't know how dirty their campaign was, I warned for this hard trained warfare many times... it's wellknown in my country for decades. They are all vicious witch hunters and it's exactly that I stood up against. I always have as it is my goal in life to do good for people in distress. Ofcourse then they started harassing me. That was all a farce coming from the Fake News University with as only goal to seize control over Stratego.com and kill this site as well.

Their long term plan to purge the 5 of us worked. Now all they wish is to create an Ivory Tower and create the best environment for themselves, to "Professionalize" things over here and get money out of the game. The deplorable state of the forum today is of no interest to them. I warned months ago it would be like that.

Note the remarks of the GENERAL user... don't get confused by their fillibusters, but check what normal people write. Scottlafaro, steelers, General Rascal, scottrussia, Chewtoy, Have Fun, Darth Remark (who said to make peace and that otherwise MT had to -act-, which was February), the list goes on and on with people begging to stop it... so tired of the whole situation. And many are so tired they have left the site for good.

So the plan has come into effect. They have the most experienced MT-member removed by their puppet Gary to prevent Team Elections. He immediately started a cycle to open up MT for volunteers to replace me and Toby. And, right on, Morx and Nortrom dropped in as only ones for a long time, which figures everything.

He was very recently was challenged publicly to cling to power by other Staff so it's not just MT. Looking back, I feel dumb not to have seen it as many times I said things like "On these kinds of moments I am almost convinced you are doing this deliberately to confuse, Gary."? He was always the distorting factor in MT whenever something against the PB-clique would land on the table. He would never take one for The Team.

You can already see where Gary was placed all these 6 months. When Nortrom launched his big attack with the Awards, Gary got nothing but high and big praises but MT was demolished. And the follow up where Napoleon and me were defended by Ouwesok GARY actually hid the whole thing! Then the Middlefinger picture Nortrom brought TWICE he did not get so much as a WP over. Something Gary would normally have a backbone for. Ofcourse, there and then it didn't serve his needs.

Even the worst swears and vulgarity suddenly Gary was all fine with. I have remarked this many times on Modchat, Mods can check this back for the Open Cases, so that is another point on record. The case against Nortrom/Morx by the way was always still open, but as I had noticed, Gary had sneakingly closed it TWICE over these last few weeks! I always reopened them again as we never had an MT verdict they could be closed. This is something I had never said before, but just one of the details I found really strange. As an MT-member you just don't close threads without any consult, it's at least with a comment you close, as the topic gets bumped then and everybody can still pitch in if needed. It is one of the many actions against every protocol Gary did.

So this is how things went. I was already done with it here. There's no Forum in the world that allows this kind of cyberbullying. It's leaving a ruine but if there is still a future, the best way forward is still Team-Elections. MT has already voted on this, so that is a done deal. I suggest Nortrom/Morx to run with Gary for one Team. I would be voting for any Team scottrussia comes up with as it seems easy to me to gather 4 of his Spartian Warriors and compete.

Anyway, this is my pennies worth. Whistleblowers many times don't end well but it's still the right way if you have a conscience.

If you stay true to yourself nothing can hit you.


Lo

#2 Nortrom

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 11:11 AM

You (or Danis, hard to tell) left out something

 

(Danis) " I just don't know if there is anybody who can stop you know that you eliminated your 2 mainly and most important opponents, Napoleon and Lonello!"

 

(Me) "Napoleon never has been an opponent of mine (except for during games  ;)). Napoleon was capable of discussing things in a proper fashion, and disagreements are there to be had, that's fine. Lonello on the other hand had serious issues differentiating truth from fiction (that's a nice way of saying lying)"

 

--------------

As for the other, I didn't count them, but I estimate them on 25 incorrectnesses, I don't intend on going over them one by one. If you, or any other forum members would have questions for me, I'll be happy to answer those.

 

One thing I will comment on however. I wish Gary had been 10% as helpful of what you are describing with your "behind the scenes talk" thing. Info comes from many sources... and also over a longer period of time. 


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#3 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 04:24 PM

Dear community, mind I was never going to return here to 'say my piece', had all bookmarks deleted, finished with everything, but things have unravelled these days to such an explosive level, there just could be no way to abandon all the very many good guys on this forum without knowing what happened. In recent days I got many questions like

"If they were going to do this then why now and not weeks ago?
I am beyond disappointed.... the mob has already moved to their next set of demands, Morx has made veiled threats, and Strategodale continues."

So I learned FU still exists, and then I checked the MT-thread to learn below revelation on which no reaction came, even after bumping the question and giving every ample opportunity.... then there was no way around it anymore as to return. The pieces of a puzzle (I could not believe myself) have now come together, so one last time I offered to be the whistleblower as the community deserves to know the truth. That's why I called this thread "The Past of MT".

As I did it before. The true insiders who know called me brave for exposing Nortrom/Morx. Every prediction I did in "The Future of MT"-thread has come out. They said to purge us all and they would stop at nothing. Then they started to take us out one by one. This has all happened before, and always will. They will kill a forum and then seize the ruine that is left. Many, very many, good contributors have left the forum for good now as they were so fed up with all their warmongering... and ofcourse that nothing was done about it from our side. That blaim is on us.

I started a postcount back then and Nortrom was in it's 1000-something while Morx was in his 100-ish. Check now and (not counting their little PB-clique) they've produced about a whopping 1000 posts in such a short while... while it's off-season for them so normally they would be at just a few. It's my 1 post here against a 1000, but also any regular's post.

That is a true fillibuster. Regular members would try to reason with a post. But any level-headed post got swamped by a ton of theirs. And every day new vicious threads were opened. People were so fed up with it, they stopped writing alltogether as it's just so futile to react. In the end it was just Morx talking to Nortrom and vice-versa.

So what happened?

There had been nothing going on for the whole month. Things started to return to the calm we had been after for such a long time. You will not find a post of mine for a month here. I didn't want to repeat myself and didn't want to let myself be provoked, so I kept my cool as well. MT had a good way forward and Nortrom and Morx were just talking to eachother.

All bad innuendo aside, it was not mine but a plan of Toby that was to be the way forward. Team-Elections. I myself was against it at first. I didn't want a burden on our newcomer MTinsley. It just didn't seem fair to me to have him in the heat at the very first moment, from the start. Today by the way, you see I was right. If you volunteer for an MT-job today you can fully expect you get the blast. This morning I was alarmed to that effect which gave me the final push for this thread.

When MTinsley was in, I did join the majority to have Toby's plan executed. However although we finally had 4 votes to execute the plan, Gary remained mordicus against. Nevertheless we were finalizing the plan with Toby and MTinsley wanting to change the requirements a bit more on which I had a compromize proposed for both.

I had also proposed to introduce maximum terms for any MT-member. I am a strong believer not to 'stick to your seat' which is a dictator's treat. In my country 4 year terms are normal. I've fulfilled many Team-jobs in my life, all very satisfactory volunteer-jobs but my principle is always: after you've completed your term, let the next pitch in and do the chores. In the end everybody needs to do equally as much.

Ofcourse on this site it's a little bit different but still the same principle should hold. My personal objective, of which I was very frank with entering MT, was foremost to tackle the square rules problem and bugs. Not the endless 13 points here, 13 points there. As this site will never get out of Beta, only the tiresome verdicts remained for a job though.

That, and the never ending aliases. I am the most transparant person. Even got my head on the avatar. Never go 'hiding behind the door' as the PB-clique abuses their Private statusses, never would vote on myself or upgrade my status, never hold dirty campaigns behind people's backs, but just be open and honest. By the way, I just checked and almost all candidates today have aliases or Private statusses and I would not elect any of those.

Al of that is un-Staffmanlike behavior. I wouldn't elect any hiding alias. I find MT-members must take the highest ground. I always tried myself. If it wasn't enough it wasn't enough. If it was too much it was too much. I at least tried to do the right thing, and overall fight the bullies.

In my time I have saved or at least tried to save many members from witch hunts or unjustified attacks. Just to mention a very few: Max, Fairway and Juniors, TheOptician, Swallow & KMC, all of them I protected. The last two it was very ironic to check back the petition Fairway and me pulled up for them. Morx and Nortrom are in there and said not 1 good word for them. Nothing. Dead cold. To them, they might as well be PB'd. Ofcourse later they could nicely use them as their puppets and as recalled by the community, turn into The Mob. Or as I called them, the Puppet-Bench-clique.

About my resignation, I already said publicly I was next up and that I would not overterm Napoleon. He was in for much longer than 4 years ofcourse. What I did not say publicly was that I internally offered my resignation at least three times. I was going for a final date with 4 years in service as the good term for any volunteer, so I would be leaving shortly but wanting to sit the warmongerings-phase out as not to corrupt MT.

I said I wanted to help out during Gary's and MTinsley's coming hiatusses (both had let us know they were to be absent for many weeks in a row) so that meant leaving by the end of July for me when all had come to a good pass. Gary could even lit some fireworks to cheer me out and I would have been sitting exactly 4 years then.

I also remarked this to Max. I said the same thing to him, and added the option to why not add a temporary 6th member in MT already. We could groom such a 6th member in the relative quiet and then all would have been perfect to leave with Gary's and MTinsley's return, and there would be no capitulation to The Mob.

This is custom in MT. We always ask the one leaving to suggest a replacement. And Max as a successor would be full circle. As after all, I had replaced him back in the day! He was very young then but he would be perfectly suited to the job today. Since he had hinted on the public forum that he would be in for the job, I PM'd him about my plan.

All fine and well, and a logical choice I would think as Max is one of the Founding Fathers of MT you may say, and Dutch, but the part about the 4 year terms was ofcourse reigning over my grave. It would not come down on me but on the next: Gary. So coming back to the original question I got put to me by several members ("Why now?"), we found out why.

In The Night With The Long Knifes Gary came in for the kill on not me alone but on the entire Dutch Staff. There had nothing been going on for weeks, all peace and quiet, and we were just finalizing the above plans, then out of the blue Gary popped the procedure to exclude me. The single explanation can be he feared my legacy.

One other thing I must add here is that I had been fighting Gary for weeks on the Dutch matter. He wanted to demote them, and also the entire female Staff for that matter, to regular status. At least Queenbee got some form of communique about it but the 3 Dutch TM's got nothing but just killed in the night, together with my demotion.

To those unaware, Symmetric was a perfect MT-member and she also helped tremendously with the Clean Ranking. Max as I said is one of our Founding Fathers and very much active on this forum today, as was Symmetric reportedly active very recently as well. By the life of me I do not understand how you can deny them the Honorary Status but I kept getting a firm no from Gary. He left that discussion for The Night and resolved it all in once.

One day before this Night I had also proposed to let the experienced Dutch speak in, finally, as it always was a bit awkward to have one warmongeringsphase all about the Dutch, but never to hear their side. They remained absent, and if they did want to share, they were stopped, as for instance when another mature Dutch, Have Fun, appeared on the forum trying to say something opposing to Nortrom, Gary simply refused to Approve him so the community could not see.

Have Fun tried several times but got such a hard no from Gary he said to leave the site forever. It was that a day later the rest of MT pitched in and we did Approve, but the whole affair Gary started did decide for him not to return. If you're bullied away like Ouwesok and Have Fun have been as they didn't serve the right agenda, for Gary there was just one plan: to frustrate them. Where Nortrom could never get so much as a scratch on him for what he pulled, Gary often argued punishment on Ouwesok for instance, and many times hid his posts.

Even posts already liked by MT-members, as for instance Major had liked one of these posts, he still hid. That is just something you do not do as MT-member. Then he also started hiding me finally. This was the final hide, and that was after MTinsley had suggested I speak up and defend myself publicly. We were to announce that we would have no more of the FU interference on the two MT-topics, so I announced it and gave a small reaction after many weeks of silence. Within the hour however Gary hid it.

The Plan apparantly was to keep it hush-hush and go for a Night with Long Knives. He invoked the procedure and the unexpected outcome was worded by Toby, who directly said he was solidair resigning himself too.

Before any of MT knew it, Gary immediately jumped to the announcement on the public forum, directly followed by a like of Nortrom. The word was out! I asked to rebuttle as there were several matters pending, and actually hid that post, but Gary simply unhid it again. Then the other MT-members started waking up. They were not glad with this at all. This was not how it was supposed to go. Everybody said we needed to discuss this and at that point nobody understood why Gary was in such a panic mode, jumping to close his deal.

I got tossed away by Gary like the other Dutch Staffmembers, denying to grant me as much as the Honorary Status. He fought this up to Admin, although the rest of MT spoke in against all this vendictiveness. The only thing the Honoraries got is the black letters. That's all. It's sweet. It's nice. It's nothing, too. "If there was no way around it" there would be this status for me in the end, yet not for the other three. Mob rules.

The reason for the vote was simple fatigue. Toby explained it well on the public forum, http://forum.strateg.../icon_share.png hopes up for a quick fix. If you are terrorized for such a long time you will try any solution in the end. Yet the warmongering continues up to today as I was pointed at this morning.

I understand people getting tired after 6 months of warfare. It's their MO for years and they've perfectioned it, even to a greater extent than I warned for. Which I tend to do in wallpapers like this one, and that is what people grow tired of too. I do realize that but I'm afraid that is my MO. It costs me my head but at least I've done everything from my part then.

There was still no explanation for Gary's abrupt behavior though, but then Danis exposed everything:
 

danis_p_gr said:22 apr. (6 dagen geleden)

I am really disappointed of the way you handled in the end Lonello `s case. No matter how hard it was, he didn't deserve this. You should at least inform him for the outcome of the the voting and give him the option to resign and save his dignity. You decided to fire him in a very dishonorable and rapid way, with a disgraceful announcement like he was the same with the jerks we fight in the site. 
"Following the procedure at Article 1.4 today, the MT took an internal vote and voted to demote Lonello to regular member status. Pending admin action his moderator status, color and powers, will be removed."
I am really sorry for this, I am really sorry for all of you guys who didn't react to this announcement and especially sorry and disappointed for you Gary for your actions...
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Lonello,

danis_p_gr has replied to a personal conversation entitled "Open Channel MT March 2018".

danis_p_gr said:
It is more than obvious that there is a "deep throat" inside MT. Surprisingly for me, Nortrom approached me yesterday via PM in an attempt(?) to make peace with me or to try to stop me from criticize him publicly. We had a talk in which I expressed my opinion for what has happened and of course I told him I find his plan unethical and based on his personal ambitions and plans. What surprised me the most though was when I found out that he knew things that were impossible to know without "inside information". And even worse, when I asked him if he honestly believe that he can cooperate with the rest of MT or vise versa, after all this mess, he revealed me his full plan and thoughts, were I believe you should know them:
(Me)-Let' s say you make it and become an MT member. Do you really think that you can cooperate and work as a team with the current members? And vice versa? Can they work with you in harmony after all this mess and critisism? Or do you think that there should be a whole new MT team?

(Nortrom) -As for the best solution, I don't know what THE best solution would be. It wouldn't be great having to replace Gary. MTinsley, even though I don't approve of him being added to the MT as he was already "sucking up" ;) for a while "More of the same" I suppose can stay too.For tober I don't care, 'honorary member' status would be ok. I'm undecided about MN, but he's also doing a poor job in the debate vs Fks / Wogomite. Anyway, what I've said in the past, is that I'd choose a new MT over the current 5. This is about the team, not the individuals. I've brought this nuance to the table a few times too, but I think it was overlooked

(Me) -For the MT part, I think you are a little bit overconfident to think that you can demote all of the current MT members and install your own team. It confirms my thoughts of you hijacking the forum and making a coup in order to gain full power. You believe it is for the best of the site, I believe it is unethical the way you acted and act and it is for fulfilling your personal ambitions and ego. I just don't know if there is anybody who can stop you know that you eliminated your 2 mainly and most important opponents, Napoleon and Lonello!

(Nortrom) - One thing I don't understand, I was informed about tober's resignation.. but that seems to be cancelled. Did they also try to persuade you into staying on MT? like they did with major nelson and now, apparently, tober

(Me) - Toby made a statement, not very clear though, in the channel between MT members and some of ex stuff like me and The Prof.(we also have the role of Special Liaison, SL, so we participate in this channel in an advisory role). If you know this information for Toby, I wonder who is the "deep throat"...

(Nortrom) - :) like I said, some people are well informed.



So the plan was perfectly organized and executed with inside help, and apparently it will be successful. Maybe we should guess who could this "insider" be... 

Of course I understand that nothing is secret here anymore, so I guess what I told you will be known to Nortrom, but I really don't care, the masks are off as I said publicly. Just so much disappointment...
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Lonello,

danis_p_gr has replied to a personal conversation entitled "Open Channel MT March 2018".

danis_p_gr said:

So they used you Gary, they used you like the "trojan horse" I mentioned. They knew very well that by getting down Lonello would cause more MT members to leave. Their plan was perfect! They got Toby, maybe MN... How about you Gary? Will you stay now and work with them? The plan was perfect and was fully revealed:

 

(Nortrom) -As for the best solution, I don't know what THE best solution would be. It wouldn't be great having to replace Gary. MTinsley, even though I don't approve of him being added to the MT as he was already "sucking up" ;) for a while "More of the same" I suppose can stay too.For tober I don't care, 'honorary member' status would be ok. I'm undecided about MN, but he's also doing a poor job in the debate vs Fks / Wogomite. Anyway, what I've said in the past, is that I'd choose a new MT over the current 5. This is about the team, not the individuals. I've brought this nuance to the table a few times too, but I think it was overlooked

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I was stunned. But everything finally came together. I repeated in recent months constantly how snippets of info could come to light. They guess well, I always thought. But now we found out Gary was sneaking behind our backs to consult Nortrom/Morx.

It's not that we had no signs, I actually demanded multiple times not to have bilaterals as that is the way we have always acted for all these years in MT. We open up to The Team and be our impartial self. But Gary always simply ignored as he did every related question, and then there would be another subject arising, and the topic dropped. MT is quite busy, you know.

And I'm not paranoid so I just never imagined Gary had steeped to this level. I have always repeteadly said MT-members have the highest moral exemplary behavior, MT-members do not lie and are open and transparant. I stack my hand in the fire for our principles. So to have this level of deception was truly amazing to me.

We gave Gary every opportunity to react. I bumped the question. He simply refuses to answer about it. The only thing left is again to whistleblow, like I did in the Future Thread, and not in the Past Thread.

Looking back, it all makes sense. I recollected how strange it was back in the day how cold Gary was with Napoleon's departure, and offer before that. He could only after pressing very hard say a few mere words not to resign, after everyone had pitched in, he had no other option. It was like pulling a tooth. And that was supposed to be his friend in MT, but who the PB-clique demanded out. It was even to me very disappointed to see Gary's reactions towards him. This was just part of the Masterplan, that is very clear now.

I was also the only one to engage Napoleon in asking him to stay on as SL. Nobody else joined me, but ofcourse especially not Gary. Later on he was promoted into the WTT and from me he got a "special cheering thread" on the General Forumpart for all he has done for the site, and he got the Honorary Title from me graciously. One would have expected all that coming from Gary, but nothing.

And looking back, everybody has witnessed this, it was enormously strange as Gary not so much as tended one word to all the warmongering the last 6 months. Nothing whatsoever. How strange was it he never took one single thing for The Team? Never, once. Although HE was the cause of all the angry. All the enflaming.

This is the huge irony here. Nortrom/Morx still do not know this. They are in strong believe it were Napoleon (Nortrom) and Major (Morx). While it was Gary to flipflop on the Gravon issue which enraged Morx, and Gary to edit and hide Nortrom's posts, in the Fake University Awards Ceremonies. That's what all started this.

Last year things were still pretty much in check. The one thing I did outside The Team was to actually vote in favor of a post of Nortrom about the square rules as only MT-member (the poll only astros voted against ans the rest in favor). That must have seemed a bit off because it was criticism at MT but I was justified as it was the single demand I had already placed when joining MT, and I said nothing in there. But it was that important that I could show a diverting signal.

Later Nortrom actually published the entire PM he had with MT which lead to his conclusion about the Dutch Railways, and you can indeed clearly see the endless "Gary ponder". By that time it was free bank to publish whatever you like despite our own rules too, by the way. It has always been my frustration that we never upheld our own rules, and in all generosity it has been Nortrom and Morx to point that out.

Over their 1000 posts they should have had hundreds of WP's. They tested the limits, the boundaries, and found there to be none. I was always the one in MT to hammer on proper procedures. I'm no rulefethist but if you got them, you must deal accordingly. Otherwise change them. But despite our rule-man (I always used to use Gary's link on his own profile to point the rules out) we never had a rule counted.

Basic line was we are fine with controversies on the forum, thus allow everything. Napoleon many times asked for action for the serious harassment he was under, even up to Admin. And so did many regular members ask us to act. To do something. But I was on Toby's line to best keep everything transparant and for the community to judge. Freedom of Speech for all.

In hainsight that was underestimating the warmongering though. We didn't know Gary was under cahoots with Nortrom and Morx. When I finally came under attack, moral ground dictates the rest of MT respond. Mostly Toby did all he could, but ofcourse Gary was awohl, and we had two newbees in MT of whom we could hardly expect to throw them before the lions.

And yes, although I even didn't know how dirty their campaign was, I warned for this hard trained warfare many times... it's wellknown in my country for decades. They are all vicious witch hunters and it's exactly that I stood up against. I always have as it is my goal in life to do good for people in distress. Ofcourse then they started harassing me. That was all a farce coming from the Fake News University with as only goal to seize control over Stratego.com and kill this site as well.

Their long term plan to purge the 5 of us worked. Now all they wish is to create an Ivory Tower and create the best environment for themselves, to "Professionalize" things over here and get money out of the game. The deplorable state of the forum today is of no interest to them. I warned months ago it would be like that.

Note the remarks of the GENERAL user... don't get confused by their fillibusters, but check what normal people write. Scottlafaro, steelers, General Rascal, scottrussia, Chewtoy, Have Fun, Darth Remark (who said to make peace and that otherwise MT had to -act-, which was February), the list goes on and on with people begging to stop it... so tired of the whole situation. And many are so tired they have left the site for good.

So the plan has come into effect. They have the most experienced MT-member removed by their puppet Gary to prevent Team Elections. He immediately started a cycle to open up MT for volunteers to replace me and Toby. And, right on, Morx and Nortrom dropped in as only ones for a long time, which figures everything.

He was very recently was challenged publicly to cling to power by other Staff so it's not just MT. Looking back, I feel dumb not to have seen it as many times I said things like "On these kinds of moments I am almost convinced you are doing this deliberately to confuse, Gary."? He was always the distorting factor in MT whenever something against the PB-clique would land on the table. He would never take one for The Team.

You can already see where Gary was placed all these 6 months. When Nortrom launched his big attack with the Awards, Gary got nothing but high and big praises but MT was demolished. And the follow up where Napoleon and me were defended by Ouwesok GARY actually hid the whole thing! Then the Middlefinger picture Nortrom brought TWICE he did not get so much as a WP over. Something Gary would normally have a backbone for. Ofcourse, there and then it didn't serve his needs.

Even the worst swears and vulgarity suddenly Gary was all fine with. I have remarked this many times on Modchat, Mods can check this back for the Open Cases, so that is another point on record. The case against Nortrom/Morx by the way was always still open, but as I had noticed, Gary had sneakingly closed it TWICE over these last few weeks! I always reopened them again as we never had an MT verdict they could be closed. This is something I had never said before, but just one of the details I found really strange. As an MT-member you just don't close threads without any consult, it's at least with a comment you close, as the topic gets bumped then and everybody can still pitch in if needed. It is one of the many actions against every protocol Gary did.

So this is how things went. I was already done with it here. There's no Forum in the world that allows this kind of cyberbullying. It's leaving a ruine but if there is still a future, the best way forward is still Team-Elections. MT has already voted on this, so that is a done deal. I suggest Nortrom/Morx to run with Gary for one Team. I would be voting for any Team scottrussia comes up with as it seems easy to me to gather 4 of his Spartian Warriors and compete.

Anyway, this is my pennies worth. Whistleblowers many times don't end well but it's still the right way if you have a conscience.

If you stay true to yourself nothing can hit you.

Hi Lo,

 

This is probably your longest post ever and as you know I hate long posts. Never mind I like it very much that you came back telling your opinion and all that very openly and frankly. This is proof that you do not abandon stratego.com. Your positive support to help this website go well and be successful is cristal clear,  i would "erase" anybody who does not agree with that.  Nevertheless Gary has been  and still is an excellent mod, impartial, active, present, available, appreciated by the community ... so i do not agree with your "negative"  comments on him. He did initiate the action to remove you from MT and this was very courageous and difficult. MT was a solid team and such action was extremely hard to do. He did not do it against you but for the good sake of this forum and for the good sake of the stratego.com community. You departure was what people wanted. Gary just helped this to be realized. I'm 100% sure he did not like it but he put priority on thinking to "future" instead of "defending current situation". If we all want this website to continue be as successful as it is we have to listen to the community and do what they want. They want some changes so just do these changes and let time to proove these changes were right. Give some trial period to nortrom to proof he can team up with Gary, MN, MTinsley and the next new guy. If it works I'm 100% sure this change will be very good for stratego.com ... see the future not the past ... and think positive


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#4 maxroelofs

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 05:31 PM

Hey Tijs,

 

Thanks for your very long message. I am happy that you shared your thoughts with us. I think it shows that the way things have developed have had impact on you (this is what we talked about before as well), and I think that  this is a completely logical thing. You are sharing a lot of information with us on several subjects which includes private messages, names of people you have protected, and decisions made in the past by the moderator team. The way I interpret this is that you feel like you have been handled, has not been fair, or at least I get the feeling that there is frustration involved in the way things went.

 

You bring forward that you have protected many members of the community and I believe you do this with good intentions and that you did this to serve justice. I think that almost everything of what you did, was done with care for the cumminity and I am thankful of that. I think as a reward for your long justice, the honorary status is a think that counts. It's the same as ending second on a world championship in soccer for example, you are left with nothing basically.. but after a while you will appreciate how far you have come. I hope that at some point you can be proud of your honorary status. If you want any other people to be added to the list of honorary members (you mention me in your message), then I am sure this can be set up if enough people are in favor of this. Also, I am glad to see that you initially wanted me as a succesor, thanks for that. I am thankful of protecting me in the past, as you know, and I am sure that the other players you protected are happy with that as well. It was you who had the deciding vote on some matters as you told me. I think however that the concerns that were brought up were not part of some masterplan to take over the community. You seem to have expected more from some of the people you have protected. Even though this is logical from your point of vieuw, I think it is best to not see this as a personal thing (you make the matter quite a personal thing). Nobody questions your good intentions, the concerns that have been brought up regard your functioning, which must really been seen as a different thing. So please, if people are against you now, while you have protected them in the past, please seperate these two things.

 

Pim/Nortrom and I have worked together for quite a while as part of the SBN. I agree with you that Nortrom and maybe Morx have tested and crossed the line a few times. And if it was up to me, a middle finger picture would be removed and not tolerated. But it didn't happen. For people who do not know SBN, we organise live-tournaments in the Netherlands and help to develop Stratego. We do this all without getting payed anything. You can see us as the Moderator Team of live tournaments basically. I read something in your message about Pim being in this for money? Well if this is true then he is a pretty shitty businessman, because it takes a lot of time and costs you more then you get from it. :) No really, Pim (or me or any other SBN member) isn't in this for money, please ''buy'' that from me.

 

Well, back to the matter again, I am glad that you shared your thoughts with us, especially on GLS. What is it that you would like to see happening next? We can start a very long debate on wheater or not Gary has leaked information, but to what purpose? As far as I see it there is no ''hard proof'' which has been presented. The way MT used to deal with this when I still was a part of it was that it was removed. (For example somebody saying player X is cheating and should be punished, without giving proof''. Now I think with the MT being in this state the message can stay in my opinion. We have to watch out however to not start another whichhunt ourselves. Without concrete proof being presented, none of us can do anything. 

 

I think (and I am sure that you will agree) that the way we should develop the community now has to be solution oriented and not problem oriented. I am sure this will be an issue that will be faced by the new MT when you present them concrete proof. The way I interpret this now however is that you feel backstabbed and want justice on GLS. I would understand this feeling, but it is not justified to remove GLS from the MT without concrete proof, am I not right? We have to watch out that we don't end up in a tunnel vision ourselves and start a which hunt. 

 

On top of this, what all of us want is the best for the game of Stratego. I really think that everything that players did on this site (You, Nortrom, Morx, GLS, Napoleon) was what was the best for Stratego in their opinion. A number of people thought the best for Stratego  would be if you were to be replaced, we will find out if this makes a change. There have been a number of candidates and some people have mentioned me as well. I am still not sure wheather or not I would like to be a part of the MT, and I am not sure if that's really what people would want to see.

 

That's it for now.

Max


Edited by maxroelofs, 28 April 2018 - 06:22 PM.

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#5 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 06:21 PM

excellent post Max, thank you


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#6 danis_p_gr

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 09:01 PM

Well, back to the matter again, I am glad that you shared your thoughts with us, especially on GLS. What is it that you would like to see happening next? We can start a very long debate on wheater or not Gary has leaked information, but to what purpose? As far as I see it there is no ''hard proof'' which has been presented.


For this particular matter, since I am involved, I will say that the "hardest proof" of Gary leaking information was his own admission of guilt in the MT 's PM, after what I presented. He admitted he informed Nortrom and Morx of Toby's in tension to resign and also admitted that he had an open PM with them the last months, which was something he never told to any other MT member, as any other member would have done. So it is a very serious offense to the team spirit and the trust between moderators. This is not a witch hunt, it is a fact. And it is something the community must be informed in order to understand the situation better. There was a background process and a very dirty one. Gary got the highest rating in the poll, but apparently "all that glitters is not gold".
Gary, do I have your admittance to post the particular part of the discussion?

#7 danis_p_gr

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 09:05 PM

Well since many PMs have been shared lately with no consequence, I will post the part of Gary's words regarding his admittance and everybody can have his own conclusions:

"As far as the word about tobermoryx resigning, that will be on me, I admit. Though I include nothing else you would group into that. Nothing about you and sevenseas. Nothing ever there or anything else.

Only this, for the past couple months I have been responding to pm messages from Nortrom and Morx. The gist of their words to me was to get rid of Lonello. My responses, though sympathetic on this one important count, were only ever vague or non-responsive as to precise goings-on within the MT, and certainly no pm's were shared. Except that when the vote was achieved on Lonello, I did tell them of my lamentations that tobermoryx had decided to resign in the wake of the vote."

#8 Nortrom

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 09:16 PM

Some small correction: The gist of their words (speaking for myself) was to get the poll executed. Something I've also asked in a PM to all MT members but lonello(for obvious reasons). Asking them when it's enough for them.

 

The result of the vote against lonello wasn't exactly a secret considering it was posted on the public forum at nearly the same time.


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#9 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 10:08 PM

Well since many PMs have been shared lately with no consequence, I will post the part of Gary's words regarding his admittance and everybody can have his own conclusions:

"As far as the word about tobermoryx resigning, that will be on me, I admit. Though I include nothing else you would group into that. Nothing about you and sevenseas. Nothing ever there or anything else.

Only this, for the past couple months I have been responding to pm messages from Nortrom and Morx. The gist of their words to me was to get rid of Lonello. My responses, though sympathetic on this one important count, were only ever vague or non-responsive as to precise goings-on within the MT, and certainly no pm's were shared. Except that when the vote was achieved on Lonello, I did tell them of my lamentations that tobermoryx had decided to resign in the wake of the vote."

Danis,

 

what is the problem with Gary having pms with Morx and Nortrom? ... everybody on this website including mods have the right to have pms with who they want, right? ... the website allows for pms so why do you describe it as an evil to have some pms with Morx and Nortrom? ... In the last month I had pms with  nortrom, Major Nelson, panther65, GaryLShelton, cflag, Kissmycookies, rgillis, morx, fks and possibly others ... is this forbidden? ... would your answer be different if I was in MT? ... if yes why?


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#10 danis_p_gr

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 10:28 PM

Of course everybody is allowed to have PMs with everybody they want. The problem is what kind of information do they share in these PMs. Especially when there is such a sensitive subject as the removal of a moderator. If I remember correctly, whenever there was a PM to any of the moderators for a subject regarding the forum or the team, all the other mods where added in this PM. This was transparency and team spirit. But for such an important subject as the removal of Lonello, was any other in? Did Gary added them in? In my point of view, and by the way he handled things, there was a secret agenta by both parties of that PM. Nortrom would finally achieve his goal in getting rid of Lonello and get the power and Gary would finally also get rid of Lonello and maintain his status as a highly respected member with a clean profile in the community. And we know very well how bad their relationship was the last year and how much Gary wanted him out. After all it wasn't his first attempt, he already tried it in the past when I was still in the team. Maybe you miss some details Napoleon since you left MT. Remember that I was still in MT 's PM as a Special Liaison, while you were not after your resignation, so maybe you don' t have a clear idea of why I say these.
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#11 Morx

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 10:40 PM

@danis: I was expecting you would open a case against Lonello for leaking from private PM or did you and whoever else was in there give permission to post it?

 

Any big forum discussion needs some conversation with less obvious people to exchange views.

 

I have been talking to quite a number of people myself, because sometimes it is better to approach people directly than to confront them on the forum, because it just ends in embarrassment or unneeded fights over small things.

 

Sometimes people have a different view on 1 sentence in a 3 paragraph post and you want to talk to them about that.


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#12 danis_p_gr

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 10:58 PM

@danis: I was expecting you would open a case against Lonello for leaking from private PM or did you and whoever else was in there give permission to post it?

Any big forum discussion needs some conversation with less obvious people to exchange views.

I have been talking to quite a number of people myself, because sometimes it is better to approach people directly than to confront them on the forum, because it just ends in embarrassment or unneeded fights over small things.

Sometimes people have a different view on 1 sentence in a 3 paragraph post and you want to talk to them about that.


So Gary leaking information and discussing with you about Lonello 's removal, while you are the ones who ask for his removal, seems OK to you? You concider this as "exchanging views"? To me it seems like "creating a plan behind every body else's back". You had every right to support your plan, after all it was well organized and successful. But the community has to know what methods did you use to achieve it and how you manipulated an active moderator with a clean profile but with a clear motive to collaborate with you.
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#13 Morx

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 11:14 PM

Let me ask it in a more simple way, splitting it up:

 

@danis: -Did you give permission to Lonello to put this on the forum?

- Did everyone in the thread (if there were more people give permission to Lonello to put this on the forum?

 

As you can see in about 1000 posts I do not post other peoples PMs on the forum without written consent, it is part of the forum rules that members are bound to.  If these rules are not followed, there is no proper communication on any more complex subject possible.



#14 danis_p_gr

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 11:30 PM

Yes, I gave permission. The others I don't know. But frankly, after all that mess created in the Forum with PMs, is this what matters to you the most? Did Nortrom got everybody's permission to post the entire PM regarding the Double chasing discussion? Cause he certainly didn't ask me! I may have not said anything in this PM, but I was in it. Did Greg asked permission to post his PM when Lonello issued the warning point? Did Lonello asked for permission to post part of his PM with you? This whole PM posting rule has become a joke!
To me it is important that everybody knows the truth and the background, so everything should be in light. If posting a PM is wrong then punish me, but punish all the others too. The truth should be out no matter what.

Edited by danis_p_gr, 28 April 2018 - 11:32 PM.

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#15 The Prof

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 08:06 AM

It is unwarranted to single out Gary as the reason that Lonello was demoted.  This decision was supported by all four of Lonello's colleagues on the MT, as well as by two former mods, Napoleon 1er and myself, who had both expressed our opinion in MT PM's that Lonello should step down.  This isn't something any of us enjoyed doing, and it certainly wasn't born out of any personal animus toward Lonello.  We all did what we thought was in the best interest of the site and the MT.    


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#16 Lonello

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 08:51 AM

Hiho Max! Thanks for your post. It makes clear why I presented you as my successor. Maybe when you had your first term you were just too young. Today you would be an excellent candidate. And you had that line in a rebuttle to Napoleon back then (in the lines of 'maybe I should become an MT-member again?!') which maybe was half a joke but which got this idea to my head.

I know ofcourse you haven't applied to the function. But I have fought for you to be Honorary and I think it would be a good thing if you were to be -asked-. Gary's insisting you were not to become Honorary had to do with your absences and the lack of activity on the DOT-forum. I however have the impression you are more active lately. And ofcourse I get the SBN-newsletter so in January we knew you would be leaving the SBN-board. Maybe you have more time at your hands, I said internally. For me, MT asking you could still be one way forward.

 

Well, back to the matter again, I am glad that you shared your thoughts with us, especially on GLS. What is it that you would like to see happening next? We can start a very long debate on wheater or not Gary has leaked information, but to what purpose? As far as I see it there is no ''hard proof'' which has been presented.

 

The big question I started my post with yesterday was the reason for this thread. I got this question from many members, even up to yesterday. It was a question I had myself, until Danis exposed Gary for betraying The Team. Why couldn't he just wait for May/June and have me then leave peacefully? These members called him 'mean', 'no-class', 'shameless', 'lacking a moral character'. Danis asked him directly (on which only came the evading answer he lists above): "Your way of handling this Gary showed that you were waiting in the corner to do this, you were really fast to make the request to admins, BEFORE even announcing it here and I have the feeling that yoy even enjoyed it. About the other informations that I gave you, about the "snitch", the "trojan horse", the opinion Nortrom has for each one of you, the plan...what do you say about these Gary?"

 

Many members were already suspecting and were deducing, and now Nortrom comes with his 'long term' inside information he says to have. Well, that excludes 2 MT-members directly, and Toby left disappointed out of solidarity and fatigue, so he will not have been snitching, leaving just the one SL.

Anyway, my only incent was to have The Mob not kill this forum, be that 4th target that would stick and not capitulate, so to see it through. I argued not to say anything about my resignation on the public forum with the 'lame duck' argument. If we had, MT would be hurt very much as The Mob would have purged 4 out of 5 with the 5th actually being a rat so this could be called a 100% success.

And we were finally on the right path. Literally nothing had happened for several weeks! Things had calmed down. With all their little ploys even Nortrom and Morx could not think of another angle to penetrate the forum. The dust was settling. So there was an obvious panic. It came out of nowhere. Now we finally know why.

There hardly is a way around a Mobbing Team for MT now. Gary immediately launched a blasting new procedure (against the Team Elections procedure we were setting up) and in the first 6 of 7 days only Nortrom/Morx were the candidates. Preventing exactly that was the whole reason for me to sit the 4 years out. In peace and calm MT could have moved to a good Future. In the current heat ofcourse people do not want to... several have been asked already and all said no. You still seem a great assett, acceptable by a wide range of people though. So maybe if I stay quiet about it further that will be a serious option ;)

And Max, I do not want heads. I have only called on Gary to consult his consciousness and look in the mirror. If he doesn't have any, or finds some way to live with what he has done against The Team, he can stay on. I have never called for people's heads as they are all mere volunteers. The other way around, I have seen many people asking for heads, like for instance Swallow and astros asking for Gary's in the past. I stuck by Gary then and I still stick by him. So people need to decide for themselves. I would have wanted to implement the maximum term rule, so resignation would become automatic. It is not a good thing to stick to the pluche.

As for people treating other people badly, it is important that these things are exposed. Danis is brave for calling things out. Whistleblowers are important. But even then I would probably do the same thing again for the people I protected back then, even knowing they will backstab me in the future with as excuse "a flaw in character". What's only important for me is that these people do not become Staff as this is very much un-Staffmanlike behavior. That is why calling this out still is of major importance.

 

So I think I've answered your question. There still is "a way forward" as Toby always put it. There also still is the Team-Elections plan. We'll see what MT comes up with next. I wish everyone a good campaign anyhow. I hope to have given a good contribution for everyone's deliberation who to vote.


Lo

#17 Nortrom

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 09:17 AM

It is unwarranted to single out Gary as the reason that Lonello was demoted.  This decision was supported by all four of Lonello's colleagues on the MT, as well as by two former mods, Napoleon 1er and myself, who had both expressed our opinion in MT PM's that Lonello should step down.  This isn't something any of us enjoyed doing, and it certainly wasn't born out of any personal animus toward Lonello.  We all did what we thought was in the best interest of the site and the MT.    

Don't forget there also was a poll in which non (past) MT expressed their opinion about lonello's functioning as a MT member.

 

@ lonello

"Whistleblowers many times don't end well but it's still the right way if you have a conscience.

 

Isn't that exactly what you tried to do to some members who were expressing some concerns regarding the MT's functioning? trying to silence and discredit those members by your vicious, libelous and unfounded attacks?

 

Perhaps you could finally rectify the monetizing thing as a token of good will after Max's testimony.

 

--

 

It seems you are rather angry with Gary. It may not have caught your attention (those things happen when staying inside your own bubble), but many people wished to see you go from MT. A common thing those who have had the displeasuring experience of "working" together with you felt is that they were extremely tired and fed up of your endless debates, arrogance and "know it better". Good luck deducting the huge list of people this could refer to.

 

"I have only called on Gary to consult his consciousness and look in the mirror" The same thing that was asked from you, even more so after the "Lonello poll v2" opened by Unladen Swallow.

 

"so that meant leaving by the end of July for me when all had come to a good pass. Gary could even lit some fireworks to cheer me out "

"Why couldn't he just wait for May/June and have me then leave peacefully?"

 

So.. end of July, or May/June? it's 2022 you were talking about, right? Most likely Gary did lit some fireworks out of joy after the 4-0 MT vote. If anything, it was a nice reflection of the popular opinion anyway. 

 

"That is why calling this out still is of major importance." Couldn't agree more. Could you take a moment of your time to reflect on this statement in contrast to how you handled those with legitimate concerns? 


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#18 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 01:39 PM

Lo,

 

I understand you are not happy to have been demoted not really from a personal decision but I don't agree this is a reason to continue criticizing Gary. Gary just did what 23 froum members 4 mods and 2 previous mods wanted. He showed a lot of patience with the hope that the situation could get solved naturally but at a certain point when nature doesn't do it after nearly 3 months then you need to help it. This is what he did. I'm sure he didn't like to do it but thought future instead of past or present. He shall be thanked for that. It is not necessary keeping grievance against him, I'm convinced not only the community but you as well feel better now. Think positive.


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#19 TheOptician

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 04:35 PM

Dear community...

 

Hiho...


Forgive me for not re-quoting the entire passages above, but now Lonello has had his say it seems to me that he has raised 17 issues (in no particular order) that need attention and clarification from MT. 

 

1. Existence of Forum Union

2. Continuation of StrategoDale

3. Team Elections

4. Maximum Term for MT member

5. Square Rules problems

6. Bugs

7. Private Statuses

8. Replacement MT member for Lonello

9. Demotion of Dutch Tournament Managers and queenbee1

10. Honorary Status of demoted staff

11. Hiding posts

12. Treatment of Abusive Posts

13. Closing of Cases without a verdict

14. Sharing of PMs

15. Demotion of Lonello

16. Gravon

17. Behaviour of Gary

 

It is difficult to know exactly where MT currently stand on almost all of the above issues - I'm not asking for an essay per section, but if the community is to move on and start resembling normality again I feel that the first point of call is to address the many areas of concern that the outgoing member has raised. I'd also like to hear the views of the MT candidates on the above points.


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#20 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 05:20 PM

in blue below my personal position:

 

Forgive me for not re-quoting the entire passages above, but now Lonello has had his say it seems to me that he has raised 17 issues (in no particular order) that need attention and clarification from MT. 

 

1. Existence of Forum Union => FU ia a parody of MT, sometimes funny sometimes not, is not necessaryand is not adding value to this forum. because of freedom of speech I would say if the FU wants to continue I have nothing against but MT did it right to reserve them a dedicated topic. They shall not interfere in the abusive language or draw refusals topics.

2. Continuation of StrategoDale => My guess is that there are very few readers of strategodale. A huge effort for almost no return. Again for freedom of speech purpose I have nothing against but definitely a MT member shall not be at same time the author of strategodale, this would provide him low credibility.

3. Team Elections => Good thing about elections is that it is transparent and gives same chances to any candidate. Bad thing is that in case elected team members may not be "compatible" which would make it difficult for MT to work  with a solid team spirit. Maybe a compromize could be to have the community electing a list of 5-6 candidates from which MT could then select the most "compatible" when it comes to substitute a mod leaving MT.

4. Maximum Term for MT member => I don't see this as a must but have nothing against should this be desired by the community

5. Square Rules problems => there is no square rules problem, only double chasing rules shall be added to the rules set. For me this task is not necessarily to be done by MT, it would certainly be more efficient if prepared and proposed by a dedicated task force of specialists

6. Bugs => Like anybody on this forum I guess I'm supporting any initiative helping to reduce the number of bugs or find solutions to avoide them

7. Private Statuses => I don't have problem with that, people shall be free to select their preferred mode of appearance on the forum. Admins always appear private, other forum members or staff people can do the same if they want.

8. Replacement MT member for Lonello => from the list of people who spontaneously proposed their candidature for MT my first choice would go for Don Homer, then Nortrom (with a 1 month test period to proof he can team up with the rest of MT), then me

9. Demotion of Dutch Tournament Managers and queenbee1 => if no dutch tournaments are organized then there is no need to have a dutch tournament managers staff. Same for Queenbee, if there is no more Queenbee1 tournaments then no need to have her keep tournament manager status

10. Honorary Status of demoted staff => very good idea

11. Hiding posts => this belongs to MT powers, is a good thing to keep the forum clean from undesired or irrelevant posts. Current rule in place saying that any mod can hide a post he thinks should be hidden and then inform immediately to rest of MT for proper decision if keeping hidden or unhiding is a good procedure. Same thing for warning points and flagging.

12. Treatment of Abusive Posts => for me it is good as is, no need to change

13. Closing of Cases without a verdict => should not happen but if it happens that there is no verdict after let's say 1 month then there should be a recovery rule allowing for more people to vote until a majority is found. For example if a MT of 5 members is not able to reach a verdict on a case within one month then I would suggest that more people shall be added to the pool of voters on that particular case, for example ex-mods could be called for their votes in addition to current mods.

14. Sharing of PMs => should be done only with permission of the other people involved in the pm. As basis rule pms shall never be put public. The goal of pms is precisely to be private.

15. Demotion of Lonello => I agree with it because the community voted 23:8 for that which is a more than sufficient statistics.

16. Gravon => no problem for me, gravon is like us promoting stratego on the web which is a good and pure goal. We are complementary rather than competitors. There are 1000 of chess websites on the web and nobody complains about that ... I would be more than happy if we had only 10 stratego websites ...

17. Behaviour of Gary => I have nothing to complain about behaviour of Gary. What he did was courageous and was what the community wanted

 

It is difficult to know exactly where MT currently stand on almost all of the above issues - I'm not asking for an essay per section, but if the community is to move on and start resembling normality again I feel that the first point of call is to address the many areas of concern that the outgoing member has raised. I'd also like to hear the views of the MT candidates on the above points.

 


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