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Alternative Stratego Rankings (ASR)


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#21 Morx

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Posted 09 April 2018 - 08:03 PM

Hey Napoleon 1er, you cannot complain too much, I am below Don_H.

 

That is way worse.



#22 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 12:34 PM

Ok so would be good to really understand how somebody has been worse 3x but is still ranked higher ... i know maths are sometimes magic but here frankly i don't understand
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#23 TheOptician

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 12:40 PM

Ok so would be good to really understand how somebody has been worse 3x but is still ranked higher ... i know maths are sometimes magic but here frankly i don't understand

 

playa1 didn't even play in ProLadder. And he only played and lost 1 game in WinterTourn (you lost two).



#24 roeczak

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 01:03 PM

Do the two draws between me and Nap cpunt for this ranking?
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#25 Master Mind

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 03:55 PM

>Ok so would be good to really understand how somebody has been worse 3x but is still ranked higher ... i know maths are sometimes magic but here frankly i don't understand 

 

I did some reseach on you and playa 1, and came to the following statistics:

mbwJnzp.png

 

From this table, you can conclude the following:
1. Napoleon 1er scores better generally (73% > 64%)

2. Napoleon 1er's opponents which he drew, have a higher average rating (1539>1500)

3. playa1's opponents which he lost, have a higher average rating (1607>1542)

4. playa1's opponents average ratings are slightly higher (1530>1527)

 

I think point 3 is the key factor playa1 is 3 points higher in the ASR than Napoleon 1er is right now. Although Napoleon 1er has a higher general scoring percentage, playa1's opponents rating is significantly higher than Napoleon 1er's. 

 

>Do the two draws between me and Nap cpunt for this ranking? 

 

Yes, all played games are taken up into the ASR. You can find this in the spreadsheet as well (https://www.dropbox....2018.xlsx?dl=0)

 

8z4OqMN.png



#26 astros

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 04:08 PM

Master Mind,

Will your system implement some method of time-decay for the significance of results. For example, a game played 3 years ago will receive a lower weight than one play yesterday.
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#27 Master Mind

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 04:12 PM

>Will your system implement some method of time-decay for the significance of results. For example, a game played 3 years ago will receive a lower weight than one play yesterday. 

 

This is completely irrelevant for the ASR. The basic principle of the Glicko system is your rating is recalculated every time you put in new results from a new rating period.

 

The only thing that changes over time is your RD, which influences your rating once you play again. 



#28 roeczak

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 04:14 PM

Astros ,
Having played tons of games under the Glicko system I can assure you this is also the case here.
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#29 astros

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 04:20 PM

>Will your system implement some method of time-decay for the significance of results. For example, a game played 3 years ago will receive a lower weight than one play yesterday. 
 
This is completely irrelevant for the ASR. The basic principle of the Glicko system is your rating is recalculated every time you put in new results from a new rating period.
 
The only thing that changes over time is your RD, which influences your rating once you play again. 

  

Astros ,
Having played tons of games under the Glicko system I can assure you this is also the case here.


According to the paper you posted (page 3 equation 2) r' is a function of r, the player's rating from the previous period.
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#30 Master Mind

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 04:21 PM

r' is the exact version of the New Rating, as shown in the ranking table.

 

What do you mean with 'page 3 equation 2'



#31 astros

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 04:24 PM

r' is the exact version of the New Rating, as shown in the ranking table.
 
What do you mean with 'page 3 equation 2'


The second equation on page 3 of the document from your original post. This function indicates that r' is determined in part by r, one's ranking from the previous period.
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#32 Master Mind

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 04:35 PM

>The second equation on page 3 of the document from your original post. This function indicates that r' is determined in part by r, one's ranking from the previous period. 

 

I think you mean the following quote: 'Let r' denote the post-period rating or the player.'

 

Your post-period rating is your rating at the end of the previous period (shown as a single 'r' in the formula for r'). This rating is the starting rating for the calculation for the new rating. Each game is calculated seperately (as can be seen as the sum of g(RD)*(result - expectancy). You will repeat this for every game played by a certain player.

 

It's actually comparable with playing a match on stratego.com. Let's say you start a game, rated 853. You lose, and your new rating is 840. In this case, your 'post-period rating' is 853 and r' is 840. The difference between your post-period rating and your new rating is in relation with the difference between your post-period rating and your opponent's post-period rating. Within the ASR, this difference is also based on your post-period rating and your opponent's post-period rating. On top of that, both player's Rating Deviations are used in the calculation.

 

However, your post-period rating does not have to do anything with a time-decay at all - it is just the starting point for the calculation of your r'



#33 astros

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 04:44 PM

>The second equation on page 3 of the document from your original post. This function indicates that r' is determined in part by r, one's ranking from the previous period. 
 
I think you mean the following quote: 'Let r' denote the post-period rating or the player.'
 
Your post-period rating is your rating at the end of the previous period (shown as a single 'r' in the formula for r'). This rating is the starting rating for the calculation for the new rating. Each game is calculated seperately (as can be seen as the sum of g(RD)*(result - expectancy). You will repeat this for every game played by a certain player.
 
It's actually comparable with playing a match on stratego.com. Let's say you start a game, rated 853. You lose, and your new rating is 840. In this case, your 'post-period rating' is 853 and r' is 840. The difference between your post-period rating and your new rating is in relation with the difference between your post-period rating and your opponent's post-period rating. Within the ASR, this difference is also based on your post-period rating and your opponent's post-period rating. On top of that, both player's Rating Deviations are used in the calculation.
 
However, your post-period rating does not have to do anything with a time-decay at all - it is just the starting point for the calculation of your r'


Something is getting misunderstood by one of us, it very well could be me. I am very busy right now but would like to discuss this further with you when I am at my computer, perhaps this weekend.

In any case, I applaud you for trying to implement a new system because that is not an easy thing to do.
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#34 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 05:47 PM

still this system is very strange to me:

i finished 2nd of wco, playa1 is not even in the top 10

I finished 5th in winter tournament, playa1 finished 25th

i finished on 2nd step of the pro ladder, playa1 not even on the last step

 

...still he is ranked above me ... really i think your system needs some revisions to reflect some kind of reality ...


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#35 Master Mind

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 06:09 PM

still this system is very strange to me:

i finished 2nd of wco, playa1 is not even in the top 10

I finished 5th in winter tournament, playa1 finished 25th

i finished on 2nd step of the pro ladder, playa1 not even on the last step

 

...still he is ranked above me ... really i think your system needs some revisions to reflect some kind of reality ...

 

The ASR is not based on tournament results but on actual played games.

 

Furthermore, the ranking will only be based on played games. This means the actual tournament results will not always match exactly with the rankings. 

 

Because the ASR is purely based on played games, not on tournaments, games must be put in chronologically. 

 

It doesn't matter what your tournament finishing position might be, only the games count for the ASR. 



#36 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 06:34 PM

so when playa1 forfeited from his rehab game he did in fact got more ranking points than he would have had if he would have played and lost that game ... right?

 

furthermore if a player finishes 1st in wco with 2 games lost, 1st in winter with 1 game lost and 1st in pro ladder with 0 game lost he would be ranked less than a player who did not play neither wco nor winter tournament but would finish 5th in pro ladder with 1 game lost, right?


Edited by Napoleon 1er, 11 April 2018 - 06:38 PM.

If you don't know where you go ... you have a lot of chance to arrive elsewhere ...

#37 scottrussia

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 06:44 PM

The ASR is not based on tournament results but on actual played games.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter what your tournament finishing position might be, only the games count for the ASR. 

 

Folks, this is why ELO, HIPPO, ASR, TMZ, ABC, DEF, XYZ all don't matter.

 

The only ranking that counts is Spartan Warrior ranking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And in case you didn't know MasterMind.....................

 

SPARTAN WARRIORS ARE ON THE MARCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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#38 rgillis783

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 07:19 PM

Keep them honest Scott, they here the MARCH of THE SPARTEN WARRIORS and they are scared !!!!!!!!!!! 


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#39 TheOptician

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 07:25 PM

I do like the sound of the HIPPO rating though.

#40 Major Nelson

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 07:34 PM

My Athenian Immortals are ready for your Spartan Warriors, Scott. Be afraid... B)


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