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Proposal Log Discussion 4 - Use of Kleier Rankings


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#1 TheOptician

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 10:00 PM

malcom,jansen has proposed that TC do not use Kleier-converted ELO in calculating Champions League seedings, on the basis that the methodology is unpublished and therefore the validity of the ratings cannot be verified.

 

You can see his proposal here:

 

http://forum.strateg...c-proposal-log/

 

(Forum members are invited to join in this discussion).



#2 astros

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 12:45 AM

Case in point, I have calculated that my Kleier ELO is 20,000. I should be the first seed in the CL unless the TC can disprove my claim.
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#3 Morx

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 12:54 AM

I have 21000 but luckily  for you  I am not participating. ;)

 

On a more serious note: we have been using this rating for years. Just ask for the documentation if you want to know how it works.

 

Mr Kleier is very methodical in these things.



#4 astros

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 12:57 AM

I have 21000 but luckily  for you  I am not participating. ;)

 

On a more serious note: we have been using this rating for years. Just ask for the documentation if you want to know how it works.

 

Mr Kleier is very methodical in these things.

I have requested it via email and not received a response. I am fine with it being used as long as documentation is provided.


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#5 astros

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 07:43 PM

It's also inappropriate to use a rating system that includes certain non-TC tournaments, but not others. Ideally, the TC should develop their own ranking system.

Edited by malcom.jansen, 22 March 2018 - 07:44 PM.

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#6 roeczak

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 08:19 PM

The plan is for every tournament to be included in this ranking. (i think we were the last one standing unranked but we changed that this year)

I strongly disagree with separate ranking for TC,WCO,national championships etc. Kleier ranking is fine as it is.
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#7 Don_Homer

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 09:20 PM

I think we should be gratefull to have a kleier rating especially for this website. Its pretty good. Reliability is difficult but if you see the kleier-ratings of offline tournaments and gravon most people match their strenght I believe.


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#8 Fks

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 09:28 PM

I thought my rating was pretty low :/


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#9 Don_Homer

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 09:30 PM

I thought my rating was pretty low :/

It can only grow now :) (on gravon).


Edited by Don_Homer, 22 March 2018 - 09:30 PM.

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#10 astros

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 12:01 AM

I think we should be gratefull to have a kleier rating especially for this website. Its pretty good. Reliability is difficult but if you see the kleier-ratings of offline tournaments and gravon most people match their strenght I believe.

That's great but any rating system is meaningless without explanation.

I have also found errors in data entry in kleier's ranking.

Edited by malcom.jansen, 23 March 2018 - 12:13 AM.

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#11 astros

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 12:14 AM

The plan is for every tournament to be included in this ranking. (i think we were the last one standing unranked but we changed that this year)
I strongly disagree with separate ranking for TC,WCO,national championships etc. Kleier ranking is fine as it is.


So the NASF events will be included?
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#12 roeczak

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 01:06 AM

Oh yeah right, I forgot NASF events. 

If you want them to be included please say so in the proper topic. I strongly suggest you do. Since they have not started I don't see a problem.


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#13 astros

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 01:15 AM

Oh yeah right, I forgot NASF events. 
If you want them to be included please say so in the proper topic. I strongly suggest you do. Since they have not started I don't see a problem.


I am referring to the NASF events hosted since 2016.
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#14 roeczak

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 01:31 AM

It looks like you had your own rating back then/you didn't want to join the Kleier rnk.

I think it is best for you to follow the rest of the world and join the Kleier ranking, to have a more accurate tournament ranking for all players of the world. 

I don't think it is possible to retro-actively add tournaments, but that doesn't invalidate the point that Kleier ranking is the most accurate we have to judge one's tournament performances in the past


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#15 astros

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 01:36 AM

It looks like you had your own rating back then/you didn't want to join the Kleier rnk.
I think it is best for you to follow the rest of the world and join the Kleier ranking, to have a more accurate tournament ranking for all players of the world. 
I don't think it is possible to retro-actively add tournaments, but that doesn't invalidate the point that Kleier ranking is the most accurate we have to judge one's tournament performances in the past


We asked to have our tournaments included and never got any feedback. Therefore, we came up with our own.

You do not know that it is the most accurate ranking, in fact we know nothing about the ranking. Hermann could be estimating the number of turnips a player has eaten in his lifetime, and that miraculously correlates with Stratego rankings.


Edited by malcom.jansen, 23 March 2018 - 01:39 AM.

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#16 TheOptician

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 09:27 AM

The Kleier ranking is the official ranking of the ISF, and has been for over 20 years. Now this doesn't prove it isn't using turnips in the calculations, but there is justification to use it, particularly when we do not observe unexpected and unexplainable differences between the rankings of established players when comparing ELO and Kleier.

I agree that the methodology should be published. And if it using turnips we should probably come up win a new one.

#17 astros

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 01:46 PM

The Kleier ranking is the official ranking of the ISF, and has been for over 20 years. Now this doesn't prove it isn't using turnips in the calculations, but there is justification to use it, particularly when we do not observe unexpected and unexplainable differences between the rankings of established players when comparing ELO and Kleier.
I agree that the methodology should be published. And if it using turnips we should probably come up win a new one.

Until the methodology is published, I expect my rating of 9000 to be used. My ranking system has been in place for the 22 years since I was born, so it's reliable.

What is the motivation for using Kleier ratings, some form of ELO measurement is good enough for seeding purposes.

Edited by malcom.jansen, 23 March 2018 - 01:54 PM.

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#18 TheOptician

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:13 PM

My point is that the Kleier ranking has been accepted for some time by the ISF.

The motivation is a fairer tournament due to more evenly matched groups by eliminating a small number of discrepancies where for example - a player is much more talented than their ELO suggests. (eg playa1)

There is also a basis to seed newcomers (eg Garulfo).
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#19 Don_Homer

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:57 PM

Hey Malcom,

 

Have you already heard from Hermann about this? He Always answers questions about the rankings carefully. Also I think there is a lot of information about formulas and how it works on the kleier website (www.kleier.net) (choose help text in the menu).

 

Also Its possible to add former tournaments to the ranking but not usual because you have to say before a tournament starts that it counts for ranking. Players should be informed.


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#20 astros

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 03:40 PM

Hey Malcom,

Have you already heard from Hermann about this? He Always answers questions about the rankings carefully. Also I think there is a lot of information about formulas and how it works on the kleier website (www.kleier.net) (choose help text in the menu).

Also Its possible to add former tournaments to the ranking but not usual because you have to say before a tournament starts that it counts for ranking. Players should be informed.

The help texts do not clarify the formulas from what I read. All our tournaments were considered ranked events so adding them now should not be a problem.

In fairness, I could not find the email request for the NASF tournaments to be included, but I do remember making one.

Edited by malcom.jansen, 23 March 2018 - 03:55 PM.

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