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Proposal Log Discussion 3 - American Participation


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#1 TheOptician

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 12:19 PM

malcom.jansen has proposed some rule changes to improve participation of American players in tournaments.

 

You can see his proposal here:

 

http://forum.strateg...c-proposal-log/

 

malcom.jansen - Can you explain why you feel thee changes will be beneficial?

 

(Forum Members are invited to join in this discussion)



#2 Luckypapa

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 12:29 PM

Disagree on all points.

6 hourslot is hardly impossible for many players. My weekend normaly is also busy. The other points are to generic. Every player is different, so you can not make a specific rule.

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Edited by Luckypapa, 18 March 2018 - 12:32 PM.

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#3 astros

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 03:31 PM

The 6 hour slot wouldn't be necessary if there were not European players who only offered slots at 5 in the morning or during the work day. There are very few American players so in the rare European-American matchup, the extra burden should be on the player who typically has an easier time scheduling.

I also don't play for 6 hours on the weekend, but I can generally find 6 hours of time when I can make myself available.

Edited by malcom.jansen, 18 March 2018 - 03:35 PM.

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#4 TheOptician

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 03:37 PM

malcom.jansen - I'm sure you will appreciate that there has to be a default time - so can I ask what default time you would recommend (for a US v EUR match) and why?



#5 astros

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 03:47 PM

malcom.jansen - I'm sure you will appreciate that there has to be a default time - so can I ask what default time you would recommend (for a US v EUR match) and why?


The default time is not the problem. The issue is that American players are regularly forced to play at the default time. My proposal would give American players more options in choosing a game time, so that they are not playing at a time that may be inconvenient.


Edited by malcom.jansen, 18 March 2018 - 03:50 PM.

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#6 TheOptician

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 04:29 PM

To get better American participation I suggest the following rules:

1. In games versus US-based players, all European players must provide 6 hours of availability on the weekend.
2.These time slots must be between 900 and 2200 in the American player's time zone.

 
When a US player is matched with a EUR player, it is correct that there is no weekday time for either player which lies in the range 0900-1700 Local Time. It follows that the likelihood of a weekend game is much higher than usual, and that the application of the default time is much higher than usual.
 
If we look at the example below where GMT-7 plays against GMT+2, we can see that there is only a 4 hour range of possible times on each day of the weekend that would mean that neither player has to play before 0900 or after 2200 Local Time. (This provides a total of 8 hours for the whole weekend).

ItIFpWh.png

 

Combining your suggestion of 1. and 2. above, this means that (using the above example) you are proposing that the European player must be available for 6 hours between Sat & Sun 1800-2200 Local Time. This means they would have to be widely available on both weekend evenings.

 

How would you respond if I argued that this is not a realistic requirement that we could impose on tournament players?



#7 astros

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 04:45 PM

When a US player is matched with a EUR player, it is correct that there is no weekday time for either player which lies in the range 0900-1700 Local Time. It follows that the likelihood of a weekend game is much higher than usual, and that the application of the default time is much higher than usual.
 If we look at the example below where GMT-7 plays against GMT+2, we can see that there is only a 4 hour range of possible times on each day of the weekend that would mean that neither player has to play before 0900 or after 2200 Local Time. (This provides a total of 8 hours for the whole weekend).ItIFpWh.png
 
Combining your suggestion of 1. and 2. above, this means that (using the above example) you are proposing that the European player must be available for 6 hours between Sat & Sun 1800-2200 Local Time. This means they would have to be widely available on both weekend evenings.
 
How would you respond if I argued that this is not a realistic requirement that we could impose on tournament players?


Over 75 percent of Americans live in the Eastern or Central timezones, this percentage is higher if we include Canadians and Mexicans. Therefore, there are likely to be 12 or 14 hours that the European player can propose. This can be arduous but because there are so few American players, this would likely only happen 2 or 3 times per tournament at most. Additionally, the European player does not have to sit at his computer during his slots, he just has to be able to make himself available.

The current system is brutal for American players working a full-time job. Look at who registered:

texaspete09 (Student)
Fks (Student)
astros (part-time Student)
Fairway (Student)
queenbee1 (Retired)
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#8 TheOptician

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 06:15 PM

I take your point - that American players participating will likely need to be regularly available at Sunday 1300 Local Time (if GMT-5) whenever their opponent is European (which is often). Players of other nationalities do of course also have to make sure they can be available at Sunday 1900 Local Time (if GMT-1) - but the incidence of this is far less regular.

 

I would argue that having to provide 6 hours of available time is far too much. We only ask that of players in an entire week. The majority of Americans may live in Eastern & Central timezones, but what happens when someone from GMT-7 does play someone from GMT+2? You couldn't require 6 hours in that case, even if it did only happen once a tournament for a few players.

 

There is a probably a compromise that can make things easier for Americans without requiring their European opponents to keep so much of their weekend available until the game is arranged.  Currently a player doesn't even have to consider the opponent of their timezone when suggesting slots (this has been different in the past). If TC were to require a European player to propose one weekend slot that falls within 9am-5pm opponent local time, and to additionally require that the slot could not straddle the default time (ie you can't propose 1700-1900GMT) then at least American players are given a two hour slot that isn't 1300 Local Time.



#9 astros

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 06:29 PM

I take your point - that American players participating will likely need to be regularly available at Sunday 1300 Local Time (if GMT-5) whenever their opponent is European (which is often). Players of other nationalities do of course also have to make sure they can be available at Sunday 1900 Local Time (if GMT-1) - but the incidence of this is far less regular.

 

I would argue that having to provide 6 hours of available time is far too much. We only ask that of players in an entire week. The majority of Americans may live in Eastern & Central timezones, but what happens when someone from GMT-7 does play someone from GMT+2? You couldn't require 6 hours in that case, even if it did only happen once a tournament for a few players.

 

There is a probably a compromise that can make things easier for Americans without requiring their European opponents to keep so much of their weekend available until the game is arranged.  Currently a player doesn't even have to consider the opponent of their timezone when suggesting slots (this has been different in the past). If TC were to require a European player to propose one weekend slot that falls within 9am-5pm opponent local time, and to additionally require that the slot could not straddle the default time (ie you can't propose 1700-1900GMT) then at least American players are given a two hour slot that isn't 1300 Local Time.

You state that requiring European players to provide multiple hours of weekend availability is burdensome. However, as an American, I have to commit at least half of my Sundays to playing Stratego at the default time. Additionally, there are a number of European players who are not accommodating or intentionally difficult in arranging matches. Therefore, the burden should be placed on European players, who generally have an easier time scheduling, for a couple of tournament games than on the American player every game.

 

How about as an alternative rule, the TC requires that the European player on the weekend provide:

 

The minimum of 6 and 0.5 * (The number of overlapping hours between 900 and 2200 local time for both players). For your hypothetical GMT -7 vs GMT +2, the European would have to provide 4 hours of availability on the weekend.


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#10 TheOptician

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 10:45 PM

I'm not convinced that forcing a European player to provide significant extra weekend availability is the fair way to approach this. The reality is that - inconvenience aside - some European players would struggle to provide 4 hours on the weekend. In the GMT-7 vs GMT+2 example, only the range 1800-2200 on Saturday and Sunday is available for GMT+2 players. This means either being available the entire evening on one of the days, or the best part of both evenings - it is too much to ask of a player to have 50% of their weekend evening made available.

 

Below shows the mutually acceptable amount of hours over the weekend (where mutually acceptable is defined as between 9am and 10pm local time for both players):

 

1. GMT+2 vs GMT-7     4 hours per day, 8 hours total on the weekend        

2. GMT vs GMT-7         6 hours per day, 12 hours total on the weekend      

3. GMT +2 vs GMT-5    6 hours per day, 12 hours total on the weekend      

4. GMT vs GMT-5         8 hours per day, 16 hours total on the weekend

 

I could definitely see a case for asking both players (European & American) to ensure that at least one of their slots (i.e. 2 hours ) falls on a weekend (and that it couldn't straddle the default time - so that it actually presents an alternative option to the American player).

Potentially the amount of hours required could increase as you go down the table above. (to 3 and 4 hours respectively).

 

I also think that the purpose of the rule is solid. I can't be sure how many American players are actually not joining tournaments because of the issue with International Scheduling, but I can see how having to keep the same time available every single week would get tiresome.

 

I also imagine that at a certain point (of requiring extra availability) the benefit of better scheduling for the Americans would be outweighed by the effect on their European counterparts. 



#11 astros

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 01:08 AM

I'm not convinced that forcing a European player to provide significant extra weekend availability is the fair way to approach this. The reality is that - inconvenience aside - some European players would struggle to provide 4 hours on the weekend. In the GMT-7 vs GMT+2 example, only the range 1800-2200 on Saturday and Sunday is available for GMT+2 players. This means either being available the entire evening on one of the days, or the best part of both evenings - it is too much to ask of a player to have 50% of their weekend evening made available.

My proposal would require European players to provide significant weekend availability 2 or 3 times a tournament at most. This is far less of a burden than what is placed on American players: unless your European opponent provides a viable weekend slot, you have to play during the work day or at 18 GMT on Sunday. This is the reality almost every week.

 

Charlie, if you want to realize how annoying this is. During next tournament, subtract 5 hours off your opponent proposed slots, if you cannot accept that early time, then you have to decline the later proposed slot.

 

I do not like making this type of argument because I do not believe it is relevant for things like Stratego. However, the TC perceived an issue with the lack of a Greek member on the committee and resolved it within a week. Now, roeczak would have been my first choice. However, American represent the largest portion of Stratego players and you cite his appointment as having the "potential for increased tournament participants."  Therefore, why is the TC not similarly motivated to increase American participation? The current rules are seemingly only viable for students and retirees.


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#12 TheOptician

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 10:55 AM

In regards to your last paragraph, TC did not perceive an issue with there being no Greek member in the team. roeczak in my mind has been a potential TC candidate for a long time - many months longer than the existence of the proposal log.

Secondly, the advantage 'increased American participation' comes hand in hand - at least potentially - with reduced European participation, so this is not a fair comparison to make as the appointment of a Greek tournament manager does not come clearly attached with a potential downside, whereas your proposal does.

I sympathise with the position that American players may find themselves in, and perhaps I am over-estimating the negative impact on Europeans that changes (in regards to requiring availability) would have.

I would also invite NASF and its members to contribute

#13 Fks

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 03:55 PM

I have a pretty relaxed schedule so this doesn't bother me. To be fair I always have to play 1-3 pm EST. If you where to work the average 9-5 job you get home a 6-7 pm want to chill a bit with the family/ eat dinner get relaxed. American player is really comfortable to play an important game of Stratego at 8:30 pm -10-30 pm Imo on a weekday. Saturday and Sunday are up for grabs on what your day can consist of, as that is usually do something with ur friends and family day. This would make a Dutch player have to play an American play at 2-4 AM his time. A Greek player have to play an American at 3-5 AM his time. A UK player 1-3 AM. So I would say there is a problem for Americans generally to get a good matchup. I don't know a fix I am just mentioning that Malcom is not far off that it could be difficult for Americans to play. I think a big driving factor in the low activity from Americans is simply there are not that many active ones on the forums. The NASF will be working on recruitment as long as I am here, so let's hope for the best on that department.
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#14 texaspete09

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 06:49 PM

The earliest I can play on weekdays is 19 gmt, so most of my tournament games get played on the weekend.


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#15 astros

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 02:13 AM

I'm not convinced that forcing a European player to provide significant extra weekend availability is the fair way to approach this. The reality is that - inconvenience aside - some European players would struggle to provide 4 hours on the weekend. In the GMT-7 vs GMT+2 example, only the range 1800-2200 on Saturday and Sunday is available for GMT+2 players. This means either being available the entire evening on one of the days, or the best part of both evenings - it is too much to ask of a player to have 50% of their weekend evening made available.

 

Below shows the mutually acceptable amount of hours over the weekend (where mutually acceptable is defined as between 9am and 10pm local time for both players):

 

1. GMT+2 vs GMT-7     4 hours per day, 8 hours total on the weekend        

2. GMT vs GMT-7         6 hours per day, 12 hours total on the weekend      

3. GMT +2 vs GMT-5    6 hours per day, 12 hours total on the weekend      

4. GMT vs GMT-5         8 hours per day, 16 hours total on the weekend

 

I could definitely see a case for asking both players (European & American) to ensure that at least one of their slots (i.e. 2 hours ) falls on a weekend (and that it couldn't straddle the default time - so that it actually presents an alternative option to the American player).

Potentially the amount of hours required could increase as you go down the table above. (to 3 and 4 hours respectively).

 

I also think that the purpose of the rule is solid. I can't be sure how many American players are actually not joining tournaments because of the issue with International Scheduling, but I can see how having to keep the same time available every single week would get tiresome.

 

I also imagine that at a certain point (of requiring extra availability) the benefit of better scheduling for the Americans would be outweighed by the effect on their European counterparts. 

I disagree that my initial proposal is too burdensome on European players. There is more of a burden on American players currently. However, I would like to suggest the following alternative rule that is hopefully more palatable to the TC:

 

Any player with a GMT (+0 through +3) timezone paired with any player in a GMT (-4 through -8 timezone) â€‹must provide 2 hours of availability at a Mutually Acceptable Time that does not include Sunday at 18 GMT. 

 

This will guarantee American and Canadian players a few additional options every round.


Edited by malcom.jansen, 24 March 2018 - 02:20 AM.

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#16 Fks

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 09:46 PM

Theo what do you think of Malcoms suggestion. 


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#17 roeczak

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 10:30 PM

Angel, we are processing it. Overall i can say we have a positive opinion, but we are waiting for all.


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#18 Fairway

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 02:40 AM

I seem to be more busy / less available than fks.On the weekdays I am not available until after 7 pm EST (23 gmt) because of track practice and cannot play after 10 pm (concentration is terrible , lol) On Saturday however I am available most the time from 7 am EST (11 gmt) to say around 3 pm EST (19 gmt). Sunday is usually very limited availability until the evening (7-9 pm EST)


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#19 TheOptician

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Posted 31 March 2018 - 12:00 PM

TC has now voted on this proposal.

 

Result: 4-0 (Approve)

 

The exact wording of the new rule is yet to be determined, but we are agreed that when a US player meets a EUR player both players should have to provide a weekend slot (2 hours) that does not straddle the default time.


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#20 Fks

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 07:59 PM

TC has now voted on this proposal.
 
Result: 4-0 (Approve)
 
The exact wording of the new rule is yet to be determined, but we are agreed that when a US player meets a EUR player both players should have to provide a weekend slot (2 hours) that does not straddle the default time.

The Nasf has a lot of gratitude to the TC for this decision.

Thank you.
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