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Proposal Log Discussion 1 - Greek Member of TC


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#1 TheOptician

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 10:52 AM

Aris1970 has proposed that TC have a Greek member, with the reasoning that most of the tournament pariticipants are Greek.

 

You can see his proposal here:

 

http://forum.strateg...c-proposal-log/

 

Aris1970 - Are you able to elaborate on the advantages that you feel this will bring, and why you feel that the nationality of staff should be a consideration? 

 

(Forum members are invited to join in this discussion).



#2 Don_Homer

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 05:05 PM

Well I believe Aris has a point here. I dont know how many Greeks (in %) are participating but its certainly a significant number. Advantages would be that the interest of Greek players (for example dates of tournaments, rules etc) can be served better. Also some Greeks might have a hard time writing in Englisch and a MT can translate that better and the chances of translations errors will be smaller because the Greek TC has a reputation to hold.

 

What I do think however is that quality (reliability, time available etc.) of a potential TC is more important than nationality.


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#3 Aris1970

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 05:29 PM

in the cases of disagreement between Greek players, in the case of abusive behavior ... etc.  a Greek member knows the Greek players from all sides 



#4 astros

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 06:02 PM

Diversity for the purpose of being diverse is a bad idea.

Given the frequent infighting in the Greek community, a non-Greek player might be more objective in handling cases.

Edited by malcom.jansen, 09 March 2018 - 06:19 PM.

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#5 Nortrom

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 06:18 PM

Exactly what MJ said. I wouldn't object a greek TC member, but diversity for the sake of diversity is pointless.


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#6 MTinsley

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 07:17 PM

Also some Greeks might have a hard time writing in Englisch [English] and a MT can translate that better and the chances of translations errors will be smaller because the Greek TC has a reputation to hold.

This is a good argument, though I don't know how big of an issue this is. Most Greeks I encounter on the forum have English that is perfectly comprehensible. It may not be fluent -- it does not need to be -- but it can be understood and that is the important thing.

If there is a large, considerable proportion of the Greek community who feel uncomfortable speaking in the level of English necessary, then hiring a Greek TC member would be a sensible option. Otherwise, I agree with Nortrom and Malcom.jansen that there is no benefit in hiring a Greek member purely to have a more diverse management team. This is different for MT, as the MT requires a Greek member because of the high proportion of cases that are in the Greek language.
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#7 Aris1970

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 09:19 PM


Given the frequent infighting in the Greek community, a non-Greek player might be more objective in handling cases.

 

the Greek member will help the committee to take the right decision and
it is known that the TC decides on a group basis
 



#8 TheOptician

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 12:14 PM

To clarify, this is my personal opinion and is not endorsed by TC:

The two suggested Advantages raised so far are:

1. Tournament dates and rules can better serve Greek players (Don_Homer).

2. Greek member of TC can solve communication issues that may arise from Greeks not so fluent in English (Aris1970)

Don_Homer - I'm not sure what you mean by dates but a Greek translation of the Rules is a clear advantage, as is 2.

A couple of advantages that spring to my mind are:

3. Potential for increased tournament participants (A Greek member of TC is I think more likely to be able to recruit and retain new players)

4. Having a Greek member on the staff of TC may inspire more confidence in their decisions (at least from the Greek community)

The suggested disadvantage raised so far is:

1. A Greek member of TC may be less objective (malcom.jansen)

This point seems a little discriminatory to connect nationality with the ability to be objective. Objectivity is a desired trait for a TC member, and if TC perceive a potential recruit to have objectivity (perhaps through Forum posts they make displaying their ability to see all sides of an argument) then their nationality should not be relevant.

#9 astros

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 07:48 AM

in the cases of disagreement between Greek players, in the case of abusive behavior ... etc. a Greek member knows the Greek players from all sides


To clarify, this is my personal opinion and is not endorsed by TC:

The two suggested Advantages raised so far are:

1. Tournament dates and rules can better serve Greek players (Don_Homer).

2. Greek member of TC can solve communication issues that may arise from Greeks not so fluent in English (Aris1970)

Don_Homer - I'm not sure what you mean by dates but a Greek translation of the Rules is a clear advantage, as is 2.

A couple of advantages that spring to my mind are:

3. Potential for increased tournament participants (A Greek member of TC is I think more likely to be able to recruit and retain new players)

4. Having a Greek member on the staff of TC may inspire more confidence in their decisions (at least from the Greek community)

The suggested disadvantage raised so far is:

1. A Greek member of TC may be less objective (malcom.jansen)

This point seems a little discriminatory to connect nationality with the ability to be objective. Objectivity is a desired trait for a TC member, and if TC perceive a potential recruit to have objectivity (perhaps through Forum posts they make displaying their ability to see all sides of an argument) then their nationality should not be relevant.

Aris' post states that a Greek TC member can better judge a situation because he knows "the Greek players from all sides". To me, this implies possible favoritism in that a Greek TC may consider factors not related to the case at hand. Given the rivalries between Greek Stratego clubs and the drama in the Greek sub-forum, this seems to be a warranted concern. Additionally, I would like a Greek TC member to take a hard stance against multiple account abuse. That being said, there are a number of Greek tournament managers who I would be fine with.

In response to point 3, Americans are by far the most underrepresented group. Only 5 of the 47 Winter Tournament participants live in the mainland US, but Americans represent over 40 percent of gold players. The NASF, while inactive over the past year, was able to get over 20 US and Canadian players for multiple tournaments. The difference in timezones means that games for US players often end up having to be played at the default time on the weekend. This is tough for most American players to do week after week. If the TC wants to address demographic issues, then this is where the focus should be.

Edited by malcom.jansen, 18 March 2018 - 08:00 AM.

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#10 TheOptician

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 09:52 PM

TC has now voted on this proposal.

 

Result:  3-0 Against

 

Here is some of the reasoning that TC members provided:

 

'A Greek member of TC would bring some advantages to the team. There are other factors independent of nationality that I would prioritise when recruiting a member of TC(eg sensibility, ability to be objective, availability). Therefore I do not think that it should be a condition that there must be a Greek member of TC'

 

'I have no issue with a Greek or any nationality being represented, but I oppose it being mandatory.  Whoever are the best candidates should be selected regardless of nationality.'

 

-----------------------------



#11 astros

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 03:34 PM

The suggested disadvantage raised so far is:
1. A Greek member of TC may be less objective (malcom.jansen)
This point seems a little discriminatory to connect nationality with the ability to be objective. Objectivity is a desired trait for a TC member, and if TC perceive a potential recruit to have objectivity (perhaps through Forum posts they make displaying their ability to see all sides of an argument) then their nationality should not be relevant.


I wish to clarify my position, lest someone get the wrong impression of my beliefs.

I have often been critical of the Greek Stratego Community. This has nothing to do with nationality, but a result of Stratego Clubs. Stratego Clubs are a great thing, but they have problems. From talking to various players, I believe there are a number of rivalries between clubs. This leads to infighting and petty squabbles. Additionally, I believe some players do not hold their club mates to the standards I would like, and look the other way where bad behavior is concerned.

While there are certain members I would not like to become TC members, I believe roeczak is an excellent choice.
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