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Future of the MT


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#21 GaryLShelton

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 04:09 AM

I can categorically state that that is the most anyone has ever heard out of the usually anti-verbose tobermoryx. :)

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#22 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 07:51 AM

Posted 4 hours ago
Ok here is my announcement of dissatisfaction and you know exactly why.
 
 
Morx


Ok we have now 2 dissatisfaction announcements. Let me write down here your reasons for dissatisfaction and please correct me if these are not stated correctly:
1) you want that MT member selection follows a procedure of elections (exact procedures still to be defined)
2) you expect from MT to be fighting and declaring a war to gravon, which we are not doing. (See explanations from Tobermoryx above)

... for the rest i assume you are satisfied, right?
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#23 GaryLShelton

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 08:04 AM

The MT was originally formed as the Justice Committee by volunteers fed up with the lack of justice against cheaters who abused loopholes in the original programming such as pause glitchers and tie glitchers. Plus chasing when there was no blocking at all, endless draw refusers, some horrifically abusive chat, and general bad sportsmanship.

Of these, cheating in the old way has all but disappeared because the loopholes were fixed early on, while cheating in the waterfall way that Nortrom has complained about requires programming assistance to obtain game logs, and that just doesn't happen, as tobermoryx has stated. If only moderators could access game log info...but I am dreaming.

I ask everyone to remember the things we have accomplished. Today we have a well known policy of ten minutes for any draw refusal and this has worked wonderfully for years now. Then there's the HmmNess Rule. Where would we be without that? Today no one can chase you more than 10 times in a single chase because of it. Back in the Justice Committee days there was no end to single chasing. None. Can anyone today imagine those days? It was like the wild wild west around here. I heard someone report an eight-hour game once because he was just as stubborn as his opponent.

In addition, although we are five different people, we do have a reasonably consistent history judging abuse cases in my opinion. That is no small feat.

Other things have been strongly desired for the site by some, but the MT has generally focused on draw refusals and abuse because these are things that we can affect with the powers we have. It's a slow process, but it works.

Further movement rules to match the ISF have been desired and maybe one day they will be implemented by programmers. In the meantime the MT is working on a proposal for one of the most important: manually policing double chasing. It has been a long-desired enforcement by many vocal supporters and maybe we'll see it soon. But there are lots of challenging details in taking on something of this level of policing, and so that's why nothing has happened over the years. If it were easy, it would already be here.

The current MT is a good mix for effecting any changes of this magnitude. The group is made up of five highly committed, and very thoughtful, individuals that are almost as varied as the community on this site. I'm proud to call them my colleagues. Each of us, if we aren't perfectly consistent in our actions, do our honorable best to rule fairly in those matters we judge. If any non-balance enters into our decisions, it is not the rule but the exception. If those few instances upset anyone strongly, that person is always free to report his opinions directly to customer care, for whom we are merely knowledgeable intercessors in the final analysis. (Don't ask customer care to tell you the difference between a major and a miner in the game. :)

If there is a desire to remove any or all of us, we don't really have in the rules anything about any dereliction of duty proceeding against any or all of the MT members. But that doesn't mean one can't be started by a concerned citizen. Nor does it mean we won't heed the consensus so divined. That said, I favor the invitation system we have currently. The duties of the Moderator are office-type ones and, honestly, not suited to everyone. When we look for replacements, we look for persons who fit what we know to be the best characteristics for the job. Speaking English, being diplomatic, and having a mind for details. These are all very important. A popularity contest would not necessarily put in people with the best skills for the job in my opinion.

For example, the time we all put in both reading and writing is tremendous and the community knows nothing about this. Speaking factually, I myself have easily written as much behind the scenes as what the public sees reflected in my over 4,500 public posts. That's the same for all of us.

I like the thought expressed in this topic that the MT should seek to address some specific concerns of the community. That I agree with. We can't satisfy everyone on every point but we do need to be responsive, The double chasing enforcement effort will be a start.
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#24 ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΑΣ

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 10:01 AM

MT  Nominations and Elections

an ideal proposal to ΜΤ   :D

 

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Ό,τι δεν λύεται κόπτεται !!!
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#25 Lonello

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:03 PM

A MT with multiple Sadistics would mean lots of arguments, but also people who would be willing to make steps forward, not backwards. I would happily trade 5 Sadistics for the 5 we currently are dealing with.

 

Obviously you are very bored now WCO is over. You're fearing being taken into oblivion?

Let me get some things straight here. First you harass our Greek MT-member last week up to the point he even resigns, for so much as opening an PM thread discussing some fun in ALTERNATIVE PLAYING OPTIONS. After all that abuse we had to talk like Brugman, as the Dutch call that, to keep him in MT. While the young man has just been appointed! Needlessly to say by the way are your objectives here, as you were PB'd over there as you said a decade ago.. for major abuse I'm sure.

 

Then today you start harassing our Swiss MT-member for the most petty and pathetic stuff one will have ever witnessed here... utter bullying. I must admit you're on a roll though, since before this you promised you'd purge everyone. Well done so far :unsure: :wacko:.

Maybe MT should keep a promise too. You demand MT punishes you for as much as calling someone a clown as after all, former MT-member but then JC-member KARAISKAKIS did that upon you back when the dinosaurs walked the earth. So you come with much more severe in calling people morons now, stressing we need to extent whatever the JC said. This MT does not punish so, which enrages you.

Well, let's put some perspective in here. As arranged two years ago the WCO-function is a temporary one. After every edition Staffmembership was to be closed (and KARAISKAKIS to return to Team Light Blue). I'll propose closing for now to actually happen because in recent years MT has, I have to agree with you there, vast asleep on these occasions. I thank you for waking us up.

Also, as proposed in the Greek forumpart, maybe it would indeed be best to hold elections in every body of this site... not only the Greeks but also TC, MT, WCO and every other body. There's nothing special about WCO in this matter so if we're opening up for elections, I'd go indeed for the Greek Democratic Option.

As is pointed out in the Great Zone Thread over here, I come myself from such a situation... in WSC we always held elections... it was my turn back then with DarthRemark and PUNISH from the USA, and we took turns actually so after a few periods of governing we would make room for others.

I am just imagining your problem though, Nortrom. Recently when you awarded yourself the Dutch Award not a single Dutchie endorsed it... it actually backfired in your face. Despite for your own club, it seems everybody hates you around here. So where would you get the votes?

I see you pledge to PB Cookie and Swallow in this thread for that is also jurisprudence and MT should not be keeping those alive. So no help from the Brits. After you pulled your APO-stunt with the Greeks on our great Major Nelson I see no help there either :blink:.

So I'm guessing your only option is to charme the Americans since you consider our great Gary as the man of Common Sense and not of any Rulebook :lol: :D. Maybe the best thing here would be to clone this other dinosaur "Sadistic" practically nobody here has ever heard about as he apparantly was only messing around in the JC-days (and yes, that may very well be Jesus Christ and not Justice Committee). I take it your first objective is to purge the active Dutchies around here like Ouwesok, Don_Homer and me ofcourse.

So far... it's zero members offering themselves up to be Greek TM. Brings back the old Zone days where after a good start the subscriptions died out and we were left with no GB (Governing Board) at all. Our tobermoryx is very right about this. Mark his words. And sadly for you, Nortrom, I have to concur with the Americans here who in Darth and Gary explain very well too what's right and what's wrong with your 'plan'.


Lo

#26 Nortrom

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:34 PM

Obviously you are very bored now WCO is over. You're fearing being taken into oblivion?

Let me get some things straight here. First you harass our Greek MT-member last week up to the point he even resigns, for so much as opening an PM thread discussing some fun in ALTERNATIVE PLAYING OPTIONS. After all that abuse we had to talk like Brugman, as the Dutch call that, to keep him in MT. While the young man has just been appointed! I demand an immediate, public rectification of this 100% pure bs, preferably in a seperate thread pinned for a week in the general forum.

 

Then today you start harassing our Swiss MT-member for the most petty and pathetic stuff one will have ever witnessed here... utter bullying. I must admit you're on a roll though, since before this you promised you'd purge everyone. Well done so far :unsure: :wacko:. Not really. Tired of having to answer the exact same question repeatedly without new arguments brought to the table. Not sure how one does not see this as "begging". I suppose harassment one can have different opinions about. I don't recall promising a purge of MT, but I must admit, it does sound like a wonderful plan! 

Maybe MT should keep a promise too. You demand MT punishes you for as much as calling someone a clown as after all, former MT-member but then JC-member KARAISKAKIS did that upon you back when the dinosaurs walked the earth. So you come with much more severe in calling people morons now, stressing we need to extent whatever the JC said. This MT does not punish so, which enrages you. There's a reason you had a tied first place on the fallacy award.

Well, let's put some perspective in here. As arranged two years ago the WCO-function is a temporary one. After every edition Staffmembership was to be closed (and KARAISKAKIS to return to Team Light Blue). I'll propose closing for now to actually happen because in recent years MT has, I have to agree with you there, vast asleep on these occasions. I thank you for waking us up. Makes literally zero difference as the WCO forum is inactive ~6 months a year.

Also, as proposed in the Greek forumpart, maybe it would indeed be best to hold elections in every body of this site... not only the Greeks but also TC, MT, WCO and every other body. There's nothing special about WCO in this matter so if we're opening up for elections, I'd go indeed for the Greek Democratic Option. Tournaments are a total different thing opposed to a MT position. The WCO subforum has absolutely nothing to do with the dysfunctional MT. A good example is the quick arena tournament being held on here. In case you hadn't noticed, unlike MT, the WCO team has, thus far, in every feedback survey asked for feedback including marks which were publicly shared.


I am just imagining your problem though, Nortrom. Recently when you awarded yourself the Dutch Award not a single Dutchie endorsed it... it actually backfired in your face. Despite for your own club, it seems everybody hates you around here. So where would you get the votes? Votes for what? I never said I'd desire a MT job. In fact, in a PM with your colleague, Gary, I clearly stated I had no interest in this position.

I see you pledge to PB Cookie and Swallow in this thread for that is also jurisprudence and MT should not be keeping those alive. So no help from the Brits. After you pulled your APO-stunt with the Greeks on our great Major Nelson I see no help there either :blink:. Never said such thing. Get your "facts" straight.

I take it your first objective is to purge the active Dutchies around here like Ouwesok, Don_Homer and me ofcourse. Again, no interest of being MT. Even if I were, I would have no reason to "purge" OS, DH or even you for that matter. OS just laughs at the weak MT, and should I have been MT, this would not pass. 

 


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#27 sdc81

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 05:53 PM

All of the talk/complaints about the moderator team is getting a bit old in my opinion. In general, I think the moderator team does a good job operating within the constraints of this site. Are they perfect, or do I agree with all of their opinons? No. However, I would hate to see what this site would be like without their presence. 

 

For those of you raising concerns or suggested areas of improvement, would you be willing to serve some period of time on the moderator team? I'd like to see those with workable improvement ideas step forward (or encourage someone else with the same ideas) to become involved rather than criticizing the existing MT volunteers who are already generous with their time. Lead by example rather than by words alone...


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#28 Nortrom

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:06 PM

For those of you raising concerns or suggested areas of improvement, would you be willing to serve some period of time on the moderator team? I'd like to see those with workable improvement ideas step forward (or encourage someone else with the same ideas) to become involved rather than criticizing the existing MT volunteers who are already generous with their time. Lead by example rather than by words alone...

 

I've served +- 8 years as (head) admin of Metaforge. I know very well how this job should be carried out. You can probably understand I have no interest of taking on this job again. I wouldn't mind to do it for a month or 2, 3, to "teach" new MT members how to do it, but definitely not as a permanent / long position.

 

https://metaforge.ne...on=VIEWFEEDBACK you can see feedback on my Meta profile given by players, including ones I generally disagreed with on several topics. 

 

In a PM with one of MT's members ( I assume and hope this member has no objection to this being "shared" ) he stated: "  I'm glad you don't want a mod job. It wouldn't suit you. It is indeed for more the administrative details mind most of the time. You're more of a big picture guy.  "

 

My response:

 

"As for your comment, I would probably be the best thing that could happen to a constructive, cooperative and alive MT. https://metaforge.ne...on=VIEWFEEDBACK you can CTRL + F ( Find/search ) for the word 'admin' or 'mod' through feedback. I think you meant to say "You wouldn't fit in the team" instead ;). "


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#29 Morx

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:09 PM

@sdc81

 

If you think the people that are trying to make the MT do their job are not adding anything to the Stratego community, please think again.

 

As for my work to the community, I have been a moderator of another site for many years. My more current projects include organizing a 20 week online tournament for the past 3 years and the jobs that come with that, the WCO.

 

If the MT was only enforcing the site policy (and not just the bits they pick from it) then there would be no harsh words from me here, because I know exactly the time spend and the ungratefullness of the job.

 

However this team seems to have strained from the right path. Lonellos post above is a clear example of this.

 

If a new MT member is misusing his mass message abilities to promote activities that are stated to be against the site policy as deemed by the admins, then I feel that mistakes are made.

 

If this person decides to step down, I actually congratuate that because it takes courage to realize you are wrong and action this.



#30 MTinsley

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:23 PM

Here are my opinions on the subject(s).

I would not support any kind of election for the role of MT or TC etc. The MT is a niche and time consuming role; and it is not for everyone. Additionally, it would turn the MT into a group of people who win popular votes, rather than necessarily the best people for the job. The current MT team is a group of volunteers, and although the group isn't perfect and does not get everything right, they normally do a good job. Having a group of hardworking volunteers is better than having no volunteers at all!

Since this is also mentioned a lot, I am in favor of ways to make this site's rules and procedures more fair, particularly regarding draw refusals and multiple-piece chasing.

Realistically, I do not think it is fair to punish players for multi-piece chasing in ranked (non-tournament) games at the moment. The rule is non-obvious, particularly to newcomers. Ideally, there should be some small programming change, such as a text box prompt informing the player of the rule.

#31 Lonello

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:28 PM

That is a very reasonable respons, MTinsley.

 

But I can't dismiss all of this has brought ancient site-animosities back to light. And I am talking decades ago now. About Berenboot times if the Dutch catch my drift. What we've always known is that in Metaforge (Nortrom/Morx) it was a huge mess. There were only great single soles like The_Prof trying to keep things in check. With us, it was like Blkdog describes. It was great fun and there was respect amongst eachother. Not the constant bad attitude Nortrom and apparantly this Sadistic shows.

I remember well we once upon a time took them on. We fought them as The Zone with me in the team alongside DarthRemark, PUNISH and Dieter Krapp who is now known from ALTERNATIVE PLAYING OPTIONS. The great and famous Vincent de Boer was Captain of the Metaforge team but how well he tried, he couldn't keep them in check. They showed such a bad attitude, they went in strike after coming down 10-4 or so.

I can't say it was a major victory of the Zone because Metaforge simply stopped without finishing. They put up a good fight but when behind, they dropped out. Sore losers. Some of this history is picking up now. I am sure Morx wouldn't do dirty tactics but I am witness to Nortrom's crimes live. Very dirty. That, while he doesn't need to as his play is excellent (but not always so much his teammember's). So it's just poor behavior.

Today WCO team wants to hear nothing of ALTERNATIVE PLAYING OPTIONS. I haven't played myself there since 2006 or so. But still, why not uptake Stratego-the game, and may even play against eachother as The Zone once fought Metaforge? I would actually want to see a finalization this time, with Dieter & Don playing on opposite sides ofcourse from Morx & Nortrom who I would endorse then :o :rolleyes:


Lo

#32 Unladen Swallow

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:31 PM

But still, why not uptake Stratego-the game

 

Good question, Lo.

 

So why haven't you taken up Stratego: The Official Game?!


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#33 astros

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:32 PM

Without making any judgements on the current MT, the fact that they are volunteers and invest their time does not mean they are qualified or doing a good job.

The biggest problem with the MT is that they do not have to be accountable to the player base. To my understanding, four of the five members have been on the team for 3 plus years and they unanimously select their own replacements. That is a terrible system as it allows the MT to get away with too much, particularly when there is no administrative support. This allows members of the MT to antagonize players, even if they are not being abusive. Maybe a popular vote is not a good idea, but the current setup is broken.

Edited by malcom.jansen, 19 February 2018 - 06:45 PM.

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#34 Nortrom

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:45 PM

That is a very reasonable respons, MTinsley.

 

But I can't dismiss all of this has brought ancient site-animosities back to light. And I am talking decades ago now. About Berenboot times if the Dutch catch my drift. What we've always known is that in Metaforge (Nortrom/Morx) it was a huge mess. There were only great single soles like The_Prof trying to keep things in check. With us, it was like Blkdog describes. It was great fun and there was respect amongst eachother. Not the constant bad attitude Nortrom and apparantly this Sadistic shows.

I can't say it was a major victory of the Zone because Metaforge simply stopped without finishing. They put up a good fight but when behind, they dropped out. Sore losers. Some of this history is picking up now. I am sure Morx wouldn't do dirty tactics but I am witness to Nortrom's crimes live. Very dirty. That, while he doesn't need to as his play is excellent (but not always so much his teammember's). So it's just poor behavior.
 

 

Again - I must ask for immediate public rectification on this blatant lie.

 

Also, as for the Meta times, I've joined Meta around 2006, I am not aware and also not interested of any history before that.


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#35 Lonello

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 06:54 PM

Well, they are dirty tactics (Ruud K.-board 4 ???), in that they are dirty crimes. I am not saying your team robbed a bank or something.

Swallow, I for sure will play in the team that takes on ALTERNATIVE PLAYING OPTIONS. Every day.

 

it allows the MT to get away with too much, particularly when there is no administrative support. This allows members of the MT to antagonize players, even if they are not being abusive.

 

With the lack of Admin support, I think MT has been more than gracious here, Malcom. You yourself have said we needed to purge Swallow and Cookie while they are still here. We are even allowing a word like 'clown' over here these days. Apparantly if you had said that in the JC-days (when Admin was still very much vivid) you would have been punished. Ask WCO-team about this, Malcom. I was still in diapers when that happened.


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#36 Nortrom

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 07:36 PM

Well, they are dirty tactics (Ruud K.-board 4 ???), in that they are dirty crimes. I am not saying your team robbed a bank or something.

 

Care to explain my crimes? if not, when can I expect public rectification of your bs? You mention "My crimes" then change subjects to "My team". 


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#37 DarthRemark

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 12:27 AM

For those of you raising concerns or suggested areas of improvement, would you be willing to serve some period of time on the moderator team? I'd like to see those with workable improvement ideas step forward (or encourage someone else with the same ideas) to become involved rather than criticizing the existing MT volunteers who are already generous with their time. Lead by example rather than by words alone...

 

This is absolutely right.  The old WSC disintegrated for lack of people willing to do the actual work.  Most just want to play, which is fine.  But complaining is easy.  If you have good ideas to improve things bring them forward.  You don't have to be on the MT to make a difference.  I'm sure if you've got workable solutions they will be happy to work with you. 
 
The MT are defacto site employees.  How they got hired or hire new help really isn't anyone's business.  If you truly believe they deliver poor service you can complain to customer support.  But it's like you guys are standing in a store demanding that the staff be replaced, even suggesting those in the lobby with you be allowed to vote themselves into the jobs, and you're not even paying customers.  It's kindof ridiculous.  :)
 
This site is nearly abandonded by the ownership.  We're lucky they leave the server on.  I'd like to see less complaining and self-aggrandizing and more real work to fix the problems.

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#38 Morx

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 12:43 AM

@Darth: your analogy is wrong. It is more like the local sportsclub where there are volunteers running the board of the club that are supposed to do what is written down when the club was created. But those board members are now doing something else and the supporters of the club and the other volunteers are complaining.

 

Their complaints have been there for long time and they are not being worked with and that is why the board is getting negative feedback.

 

As a result the board and the club are negatively in the local newspaper and  then instead of the board taking action to fix things they are just trying to make the supporters and other volunteers that complain look like bad people.



#39 DarthRemark

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 12:52 AM

Well, I'm not familiar with your complaints.  Maybe you made them on another thread.  Sorry, I don't usually read the general board but just happened to see this thread yesterday.  I'd echo Napoleon and ask for specifics.  I worked with these guys for a while and I truly believe that if you've got a workable (and that's the important part) solution that they'd be happy to help enable it. 
 
 


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#40 Lonello

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 01:29 AM

Lol, now there is also opened a case against ME...???

 

instead of the board taking action to fix things they are just trying to make the supporters and other volunteers that complain look like bad people.

 

It's obviously completely the other way around. It's just way too predictable, although I probably speeded it up and it was planned mine for a couple of days more... first you two tell us about your purging plans, then the ambush on Major, then Napoleon, next me.... all of the agression is from your corner.

To Nortrom I'd say: what you reap is what you sowe (hopefully Ouwesok can correct my English here) so don't come whining now, apparantly trying to catch me on a word while he knows better. I've addressed it to his face live so he knows very well what I relate to, and it ofcourse concerns the Teamcup as I ONLY play those, and not his or my board as I already say for the third time now, with nothing changed. Nevertheless he endorsed these what I and many find dirty tactics... probably calls it 'professionalism'. Fine if you want to win like that but as I said one would have a much more gracious victory without, and that was the point. Nothing new here, this has quite recently been said to him by other people too here. Where are the cases against them? Oh wait... not part of the big plan... right, got it ;).

'Nuff said about this nonsense... I do hope he's proud that I did as he asked and publicly said on the matters what I think of them (the p-words), glad to have been of service.

 

I'd echo Napoleon and ask for specifics.

 

That's it exactly. We're waiting for some genuine complaints here...


Lo




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