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#341 Fairway

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:06 AM

To correct you, TC did not make any comment (let alone a 'lot' of comments). I really shouldn't have to be correcting a member of MT like this, who appears to consistently have no regard for the truth.

 

.... (Don't want to quote the rest, it is long, but justifiably so)

Wow , finally a post by a TC/MT member stating facts straight as they are, too bad I have to scroll through 2 pages of nonsense replies to get to this.  ...


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#342 Lonello

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:48 AM

Wow , finally a post by a TC/MT member stating facts straight as they are, too bad I have to scroll through 2 pages of nonsense replies to get to this.

 

LOL... well you are really giving the perfect example here of untruth... there is a lot of "pushing this bullshit to the max" above but this particular example is one that can not be denied. Theo made several posts in there. MT made none and kept completely out of the discussion (well, I only 'liked' that post of roeczak). Just the simple facts straight as they are (I can give you the pages if you want to scroll through that too ;) ).

 

About the MJ/US feud... we'll open the cases but at some point the same old has to stop there too.


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#343 TheOptician

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:51 AM

you are really giving the perfect example here of untruth... 

Theo made several posts in there.

 

 

I made a few posts, one of which sympathised for the situation WCO were in (having to deal with a player who was refusing to play), and none of which commented on the verdict. TC made no posts. This lack of attention to any detail is appalling for a member of MT. You misremember events and present your fictional version as reality - yet you are judging cases and are the main liaison with admin. Quite simply - we deserve better.

 

Now there have been a lot of cases brought in this thread against you for various things and I am not going to comment on whether any of them have validity, but some of the pages of garbage you wrote are quite astounding in their delusion, and the manner in which you intentionally antagonize is anything but productive.

 

How can the community respect your opinion when you have no respect for the truth? 

 

MJ has stated that almost 25 people have taken his survey. If more than 50% have rated you as worse than satisfactory (i.e. poor or terrible - and that is an exceedingly low bar) then I think it is time for you to accept that the community would like you to step down.


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#344 Lonello

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 05:00 AM

LOL, OK, so now you DID make the posts... and who was lying again? It's once more the same old spamming, coming from the same tiny clique I listed the other week in the thread of malcom. Use that thread and not this one for discussing, and use the MT survey for giving feedback on MT... in it you will also find ample opportunities to enlist MT. We are a Team fully open to the community's wishes, and that is the entire community, not just the one clique.


Lo

#345 Aris1970

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:00 AM

I made a few posts, one of which sympathised for the situation WCO were in (having to deal with a player who was refusing to play), and none of which commented on the verdict. TC made no posts. 

 

 

 

The Optician = TC   &   TC = The Optician 

I often hear from Greek players ...  "The Optician tournaments" :)

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#346 TheOptician

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:16 AM

LOL, OK, so now you DID make the posts... and who was lying again? It's once more the same old spamming, coming from the same tiny clique I listed the other week in the thread of malcom. Use that thread and not this one for discussing, and use the MT survey for giving feedback on MT... in it you will also find ample opportunities to enlist MT. We are a Team fully open to the community's wishes, and that is the entire community, not just the one clique.

 

It looks like you haven't upgraded your strategy since the school playground. Stick your fingers in your ears, ignore/twist and repeat. If someone corrects you, just call them a liar. If someone shows you an apple, just shout louder that it isn't an apple. I have come to realise it is completely pointless to debate anything with you. The rest of MT have my deepest sympathy for having to deal with this on a daily basis.



#347 TemplateRex

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:50 AM

I have no skin in the game to get the current MT removed, changed or whatever. But I would like to point out my experience on another site, StackOverflow, where they have a very thorough process to elect moderators and where moderators are held to the following standards: (see https://stackoverflo...com/election) 

 

 

Community moderators are accorded the highest level of privilege on our community, and should themselves be exemplars of positive behavior and leaders within the community.

Our general criteria for moderators are as follows:

  • patient and fair
  • leads by example
  • shows respect for their fellow community members in their actions and words
  • open to some light but firm moderation to keep the community on track and resolve (hopefully) uncommon disputes and exceptions

 

 

It would be nice if the current MT would reflect on these principles. Regardless of whether there should be MT elections, I think it would be very good if any moderator would live up to these (or suitably adapted) principles.


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#348 Lonello

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:55 AM

For the new observer here only reading the fresh posts it may look a bit about me. If you want to know though, you best read back. They are exposed. And I am just the 4th MT target these last several of months. The 'PB-clique' has victimized a couple to a degree with all their constant warmongering (yet all of them remain with MT for consultation at least), but they are failing themselves on every other level. Now what we have been hearing last is the clique is grasping for support, PM'ing the lot to attract any kind of support for their plans. This is clear devious infighting. They want to make more hay with everything they can get their hands on. Let it be clear MT is open and transparant and does not do infighting. We take the higher ground. We have no part of schemes behind people's backs. What they do for a long time now is bullying harassment, that much is clear.

I've taken all this discussion into Our Future as discussion is not what the Abuse section is for, and given all the clique's words want to follow up on my previous post below. To a lot of people, likely the topic creator here most, it will be quite stunning to see so several members with such a bad previous behavior not only online at Stratego.com still, but even in Staff. There is only one simple reason: this soft&sweet MT. Maybe too soft, maybe too sweet. Previous MT/JC was a lot tougher while this MT never so much as touched forumwriters. But our reason was the volunteer's base is as small as it is and they are at least obsessed players of the game. Doing a lot of bad, as we currently see, but also having done a lot of good.

 

...But they took it too far and some of us got burned out with all the harassment... it lead to 3 MT-members actually resigning recently over all the pettyness on the forum, of which 2 we could finally persuade to stay. It's just bullying, so their ambush this last week is no surprise and especially Staff needs to show another attitude to keep this forum nice. But what on fact have we got here for opposing party?

One PB'd member in hides on the forum and currently an enduring, MT runned, open case for constant personal attacking
One de facto PB'd member by Admin, but could be saved by me personally as swinging vote
One on Gravon PB'd member and over here penalized for personal attacks, also pleading to have a Sadistic MT installed here which player was PB'd over here for swearing and uploading pornographic materials for one
And then a little

All of this was their track record of behavior BEFORE current MT, or it was Admin's action. All of it. We have not penalized them. Zero. Even after all the abuse the last months they have not received so much as a single warning.

We have been doing nothing but trying to reach peace these last days as that is the clear wish of the forum. We can open a lot more of this and engage all the attacks, have no mysteries. But you have always have to keep your eye on the big picture which is why we have not done so. To have open reviews, open cases on them is probably the best way to act. If the harassments stop, then all ends well... the ball is in their corner.

 

What if we had PB'd TheOptician (that came close to an inch by action of Admin when he was just starting in TC)? We wouldn't have had the tourneystructure as we have now. What if we had done what Nortrom asked, no what he even begged, us to do, urging us to be consistent with former leadership that PB'd him and WP'd him? For one we wouldn't have an ultimate topplayer around anymore but also WCO wouldn't have the tourney as it is today. The other PB'd can be recalled good stuff too.

So yes, we saved them, and I can personally admit I was at the helm of all preventions of PB's. I am just a sucker for volunteers. And me and MT are all about peace. We have constantly shown that and do not go scheming. The community is getting tired and is unsubscribing the forum for all the warmongering. I myself have stopped reading their posts a long time ago too, have not been reading them for weeks in fact (see timestamp of my quote before).

Bye the way, all ofcourse is documented on record, facts for MT and Admin to see, and I hope to soon welcome a new member in our midst who is going to see a terrible lot more, I can tell him that already ;). Now if there are any serious questions, we welcome them ofcourse and have also the other MT-members respond... TemplateRex already made a good comment and for such feedback we've opened a survey which is pinned in this forumpart. It indeed has a couple of perks in that are in line with this procedure.


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#349 Unladen Swallow

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:59 AM

Please lo.... The Strategodale drama must go on! It cant stop now :)

I used to play against a few drunken idiots in College and University. I just recently discovered this game online, playing my first matches against real-world opponents. After 100 games, I'm now one of the top 10 players in the world. 


#350 Nortrom

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 01:07 PM

TheO mentioned he made posts, not (as)TC, but as a forum member. Just like MT was asked to stay out as MT(as in enforcing forum rules regarding PMs), you trying to twist that around (and being disproven) doesn't change that.

 

Speaking about TC and tournaments, my question about why the WCO / TC merge was vetoed by MT still remains unanswered. I'm sure many other forum members will be delighted to be informed properly too. 


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#351 Morx

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:13 PM

So yes, we saved them, and I can personally admit I was at the helm of all preventions of PB's.

 Some other characters that Lonello saved from Permaban personally, but did not mention yet:

 

1 Robin Hood - This evil thief stole from the righteous Sheriff of Nottingham who was personally appointed by the great  and just Prince John

2 Cinderella - This polluter left her glass shoes in a public place, endangering the audience of a high class ball

3 The Little Mermaid - This trespasser was walking on land pretending to be something she was not in order to get attention of people



#352 Morx

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:55 PM

wrong topic.

 

Reposted my case against members of MT refusing to open cases

Morx vs Lonello #1

Morx vs Lonello #2

 

in Abusive Behaviour thread.

 

Morx



#353 Nortrom

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:04 PM

It looks like you haven't upgraded your strategy since the school playground. Stick your fingers in your ears, ignore/twist and repeat. If someone corrects you, just call them a liar. If someone shows you an apple, just shout louder that it isn't an apple. I have come to realise it is completely pointless to debate anything with you. The rest of MT have my deepest sympathy for having to deal with this on a daily basis.

One should make a separate thread and pin this for a week.


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#354 Morx

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 01:33 PM

It must not be fun to be a member of MT at the moment.

 

One of the choices you have to make is :

 

1 Do your job by opening cases as requested

2 Try to help in a cover-up because those cases are about a malfunctioning, incompetent team member and as a result get another case thrown against you

 

Of course if you picked option number 2, you will not open a case about not doing your job either.

 

After all who is going to call you out for that?

 

As a result the complaints about the functioning of the whole team will just stack up.

 

stackofbusinesspapers_379634.jpg



#355 Nortrom

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 01:43 PM

It must not be fun to be a member of MT at the moment.

 

One of the choices you have to make is :

 

1 Do your job by opening cases as requested

2 Try to help in a cover-up because those cases are about a malfunctioning, incompetent team member and as a result get another case thrown against you

 

Of course if you picked option number 2, you will not open a case about not doing your job either.

 

After all who is going to call you out for that?

 

As a result the complaints about the functioning of the whole team will just stack up.

 

stackofbusinesspapers_379634.jpg

You are very much wrongly informed and spreading made up tales. There are no piles of complaints or reports.
u19yEcf.png

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#356 Nortrom

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 05:21 PM

Yes, well, Aris, did KARAISKAKIS made the first mess up? Sure, but you did the next moves wrong, imho. Still, ofcourse there was a lot of bias involved. If they had presented themselves as anything impartial, while MT was couffed, they would have called:

YES Aris obstructed.
YES Aris should be penalized (with f.e. a yellow card or more serious sorts for AFTER the tourney).
but NO they shouldn't have given this a direct win to their fellow teammate KARAISKAKIS, but simply followed roeczak's lead there to have the game played, actually.

You made every attempt after this affair to have the game played simply, but WCO called for their rulesfetishism and gave the win to their own peers. It was just embarassing to watch but MT was couffed and we let it go, as we promised.

 

Again, this is not the topic for such though so if you wish to discuss these things, best to open a thread for it.

Do you still stand by this considering your colleagues, rightfully, understood something else?

 

 

I was the other player vs that game with Lonello.

 

I can confirm the story TheO wrote above

Sounds fun. Can you give some details about what happened in this "game"? I'm sure we all will be delighted to hear.


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#357 Morx

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 10:33 PM

I understand you are all after more transparency and more democratic procedures, but transparency is a tricky topic. Personally, I think if every MT member revealed how they voted on each case, then that would create more "drama" and tension than most people would realize. For example, friends of MT members would complain when the MT has not voted in their favor. Certain MT members can, and do, clarify their positions when necessary during discussions.

I'm not a supporter of community-led MT elections. It would turn the MT into a popularity contest in which the most mature and responsible candidate may not be chosen. However, I do agree with the idea of allowing the community to anonymously rate the current MT and to start no confident petitions, if there is a substantial portion of the userbase in disagreement.

MTinsley

 

Something I did not reply to so far. I agree with you on the concept of full elections. Not a good plan. Getting votes and having the skills to judge cases are completely different things. I never pleaded for full democracy though.

 

In the first post in this very topic I said something about the method used to select new MT members.

 

"At the moment the method chosen to create the team seems to result in get more of the same. I also like the re-approve part."

 

I think my comment on the method is pretty clear.

 

What I mean with the re-approve part is some sort of sanity check if the basic level of service is being offered and if all team members meet some minimum in terms of competence, fairness and teamwork.

 

At the moment MT fails my approval rating by selectively ignoring cases that dont suit them.

Of course it is no secret that one current MT member does not meet my criteria as mentioned above.

 

Also I would like to plead again for execution of all the site rules relating to solliciting and advertizing competitors.

 

I know MT offers the survey (to stall time) and the kick moderator procedure (which needs serious tweaking, but the idea is good) but they could have taken my offer to help instead. It would be a lot more efficient and productive.



#358 Morx

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 07:59 PM

In the abusive cases I saw a nice case today:

The case revolves around the chat below

m0e1b06.png

 

Apart from the funny way the discussion about the evidence was going, I was thinking: what if this was Player X vs Lonello in yet another libel case.

 

In that case one of the MT members would probably be defending the accused (GoWarriors here): the discussion would go something like this:

 

With Suck he means lick. My = property Cock=a male chicken.

 

So he is asking him to lick his chicken.Which is not a crime.

 

Then the 2nd sentence would make no sense at all and the case would be solved.

 

Be6bL_iIcAAE4ls.jpg


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#359 Morx

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 03:25 PM

As one of the few things still outstanding:

There was never a message to rectify given by Lonello regarding this message he send to Nortrom:

 

"First you harass our Greek MT-member last week up to the point he even resigns, for so much as opening an PM thread discussing some fun in ALTERNATIVE PLAYING OPTIONS."

 

Notice that I did tell Lonello in private  that I sent the message and that Nortrom had nothing to do with this.

 

Notice also that I did not consider it harassment, but a hard slap on the hand for someone I feel should know better.

 

Here is the actual message:

 

Be aware that I send this message right after I found out that 2 months pushing MT to do their job regarding maintaining the site policy, MN in my opinion broke this agreement by sending out mentioned message. So the tone might be a bit harder than I normally use.

 

gp2mSk3.png



#360 Lonello

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Posted 19 March 2018 - 06:04 PM

It's been a week and what we've heared in that week is that the PB-clique has been very actively and deviously behind the community's back trying to persuade good members to go warmonger with them... make a lot of hay... in PM bilaterals, and with zero transparancy. That only gave them current very poor results to show for.

This while MT remained cool, soft, sweet and full of peace again. We asked Admin not to act upon them and did again keep all the warmongering open for full transparancy. And we were not minding that after our announcement last month we would be launching a survey, several other surveys popped up. Not filling in any of the surveys ourselves ofcourse (while PB-clique ofcourse filled in to the max), nor persuading anyone behind anyone's back to do something.

Mind that some of the normal regular members of this forum approached us, even about excusing themselves for maybe some lower ratings they were about to give on some of the questions. But then finding out they had not been filling in the MT survey at all, and totally unaware there are several around. Also saying one to fill in was quite enough too, which ofcourse we totally understand. This is the reaction I wrote the other day, which is what we knew we would get ourselves into in 2017 already:

 

In the MT survey there is no rating of individual members of the MT. There are a couple of reasons, one of them is there is in a good team always one outspoken on the one end and one on the other end, with 3 in between. Cutting out the extremes, if you will, will only weaken the team. It is important that all of the community is covered. That means also 'the wings'.

 

It's also not necessarily the same ones who are on opposing sides. For one, I may think strongly on the one subject because I have a lot of experience in that, but will think timide on many others when another will have the experience. History shows we got a perfect average with that. 

 

Currently there is a distorted image as the survey comes out right when we've had 3 MT-members victimized in warmongering, and I am just the next, 4th. But I know the plays and ploys, so I speak up.  The ones who know the real story as well call me brave for that, and were insisting I speak up. I knew however 90% of the community could care less. Still I did it. But you belong to the 90% and it's hard to cover decades of warmongering, where they are coming from, what the ultimate goals are, in few words. Down to it, they want Gravon off the face of the earth. MT is independant, as also Jumbo is on the matter.


Anyhow, we actually had a discussion in MT by the end of last year to test what you describe. By individuality. I said yes to elections but no to make it a popularity test. You see, if we do our job right we do not satisfy either side.  We will always be unpopular, get bad ratings... but then actually do our job really well. The 90% that is satisfied will always be less eager to spend the time filling in these forms. The 5% left and 5% right that are both angry because we are impartial so do not do as they please will however be very rallied up, and vote NO. This is why the no-camp and negative campaigning always wins, sadly. 
 
Point is, we must not have the 5 most popular members. It needs to be a perfectly balanced Moderating Team. That is what we have been establishing. A mix of all, including countries, and best of all, no hidden agenda's, no bagage of the old. We have seen what some people always bring for warmongering. It was a Dutch invention in the '90's perhaps but take a look at the Greek forum and you'll see they took over our template. MT needs to stay in the middle and lean not to biased Federations and so on. Who really do they represent? That goes for the Dutch, but last week the Greek HOSC collapsed.
 
Anyhow, just a couple of considerations... I think you may have filled in a wrong survey, as the MT one would have other questions. We're certainly improving on the results. so if you will, also file the one Daniel made? Greetz, Lo

That, I "got a like on if it had been possible in a PM", this regular, but normal and off-Europe member said.

I also want to stress MT discussed elections and popularity --last year-- already. There and then I said directly we are best to get NOT the best ratings. As only then you are doing your job right. This is no popular job. You have to be impartial to the extremes. You can not please the community which would give you your popular scores. No. So I last year said if we would launch such a poll, we best hope at lower rates as only cliques would be very eager to fill them in with vinegar, so the ratings would be naturally low, which would be something to be very proud about.

So what have we got here? The PB-clique filling in all surveys to the worst. MT filling in nothing. Good, regular members not seeing the trees through the wood.

Well, it's a fine victory for the PB-clique then as they want to feast the most meager results. The good and honest community including the concerned citizens will however find MT implementing many of the proposed ideas and questions put. It's why we started planning to have some things organized by the end of 2017 already, and which we will adopt from the MT survey but also ofcourse from any other as any opinion counts, how much biased it is.

Ofcourse since I am current, 4th, target of the PB-clique, sticking up for my Team outspoken, I will get the extra mile. Clique wants to divide so will fill it in to the extreme but as the above example prooves, and we've heared more of this: also those few regulars giving up their time for it will reluctantly fill in more mediocre "because they just don't know". That's all very much understandable, and comes with a genuine argument.

Those members off-Europe, who have never experienced these "Windmill wars", asked me to explain it as they really didn't get it. Which is why I wrote that second 'wallpaper' earlier above if you will, and even after that it is not easy to comprehend decades of warfare we, Admin and MT, wish to keep out of this forum. But it is why I became the most outspoken MT-member at the moment.

They can be assured we come up for the 90% peaceful members... we are an independant team and have no hidden agenda's. Nothing like the PB clique which is only about the "Big" Strategopolitics. What the community is concerned about, and they will never get, are whole other things, and we are addressing that. For instance we announced a survey to test community's wishes... and as said then all of a sudden other surveys popped up. From many sides, the normal members, we understood they didn't even know there were multiple surveys, so they had just filled in the one. Filling in all, they said not to bother... too timeconsuming.

They did note themselves that ofcourse the PB clique would fill in every single one of them so we might expect very distorted results. Mind ofcourse again MT does not fill these surveys in ourselves either so you get only the warmongerers group filling in everything, then here and there the regular members who also often have to make a judgement as they do not comprehend everything, do not know what to believe. And that's the perfect respons... I would be like that too if I came in fresh.

So. You'll see only a meager 23 results with half of those relative lower results, of which the worst results are all PB-clique ofcourse (that goes without saying). A genuine result would be this to be a relative fine result (excluding the PB-clique that said to purge all 5 of MT many times, as their views were a given already). It would be fun to see the PB-clique run against MT in elections actually. Then if they win, indeed all cheers to them. It would take a bit more than these few votes though, even if MT pitches in, it would not be a very satisfactory number for the thousands of members we have.

Even the WCO survey had 36 entrants, and that of only about 60 players in the end. We have had more than tenfold ofcourse, so 600 different members bringing cases. Many of them not frequent visitors of the forum at all, but for the very most part satisfied members with our verdict then.

What you can not do is discount the one member for one other, but much more active, member. We are all equal around here! If the PB-clique wants to reside in professional ivory towers that's up to them, but we stay below, amongst the entire community. Let the professional Elite remain in their castles; MT is just ordinary, as it should be.

Now ofcourse we can not demand of people to start filling in all the pop up surveys laying around. We'll have elections Wednesday in my country and half the population stays at home... this surveying need not even be 50%. Most just do not bother too much, just have the one case, maybe another in a year, but really not much going on. So I would understand why we wouldn't get hundreds of people filling in, especially since there are many surveys going around now. Just the 100 seems a good goal if we have Admin mail around to advertize for it indeed. That would be feasible and representative.

So far there is little appetite though and this stems ofcourse from al the warmongering of the PB-clique. It's just that nobody else cares to respond but them, which figures a lot. We see above a dozen posts. They're doing a cycling match together, go head over head. I haven't been reading their posts as they are only intended to provoke and have a level zero in sincerity but I sure like reading yours, MTinsley ;). I guess I do like hyperboling ;) http://forum.strateg...852#entry448852


Lo




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