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Future of the MT


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#301 Lonello

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 10:16 AM

We got a question on the empowering of WCO. I'll summarize the facts shortly: last month Nortrom acknowledged the arrangement we had for this body alone (as it's the only one not permanent but just active a couple a months a year). We took up on that, as Napoleon announced execution was only after 10 days since the aftermath of the tourney was still ongoing a bit. Then however we got a complaint from 1 of them, that he experienced serious issues with his PM-storage (while the others continued as normal). We considered that and within a short while made the Adminrequest to re-empower; that was last weekend. That it only is now executed is because Admin is not here every day.

Above is all announced publicly by several MT-members but I can understand regular members would have a hard time finding it in a barrage of posts concerning other issues as well. Myself as the man of proper procedures I have been pressing many, many times in MT to use the template TC for instance has in an official Announcement and Log topic. That would imho benefit not only the community as every action is neatly alligned under eachother, but also helps ourselves as we do not have to do constant summaries and repeat what we've said before.

Even I was lost last week for instance when Napoleon had already announced his resignation somewhere out there. I didn't think that was the proper way to hail him for all his efforts these past years so made the one time Announcement topic myself here: http://forum.strateg...n-announcement/ but it would also have been much nicer for instance to hail our newest MT-member Major Nelson in via such a way, instead of just one member noticing he wears colors and it's only then spread around.

 

Staying on topic, I've put this back on the agenda for the future workings of the MT.


Lo

#302 Nortrom

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 10:53 AM

One minor note
I don't recall acknowledging it. I vaguely remembered something about the possibility of temporarily having an orange name. As I believe it was Greg who did the communication for the orange colours back then, I was not 100% sure whether MT's statement about the temporary status was correct, thus did not challenge it.
 
I do want to point out, too, that the remark about the temporary remark was not challenged because the latest MT position, communicated by Napoleon, was that the orange team would continue. 
JFsNCRg.png
 
"Then however we got a complaint from 1 of them" Greg was more vocal about it, but I definitely mentioned (perhaps not to the extent where one would consider it'complaint') too. Even working with MT to find a solution to avoid any possibly similar situations in the near future for ex-staff. Greg being more vocal might have to do with the WTT (World Team(s) Tournament). I only had to arrange one game after the removal of orange status and luckily had a very old I had sent to TheO which then was used to arrange the match. For me it was an inconvenience. I had good faith that a proper solution would be found. Greg either did not or considered it more than an 'inconvenience'.
 
As for making a special topic for Napoleon's resignation; it is something that crossed my mind too, but ultimately I decided against doing it myself as it probably would've been perceived as a provocation.

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#303 Nortrom

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 10:59 AM

Now something else. Since this is the "Future of MT" thread, there is no future without looking back at history or even the status quo.
 
I would like to invite MT to publicly reflect on:
 
1. http://forum.strateg...-ruling-review/ the time spent to come to a decision. Why was a relatively new forum member delivered a rather (imo) poor service. How do you think this member feels and how does MT feel about the service delivered?
 
2. http://forum.strateg...-19#entry447675 (26 feb). Lonello, as MT representative opens the case (28 feb). This case still has not been handled despite it being 8th of march today. I do not wish to "judge" about an ongoing case, but the evidence provided by the user ( https://imgur.com/wFqPsjw ) looks pretty clear. 
- There is the desiring that the plaintiff gets a disease which by today standards still often leads to serious health issues if not worse
- "American" is mentioned, making a remark of the plaintiff by his origin
- "Prostitute" refers to the plaintiff's mother as, apparently the plaintiff is considered to be the son of this "prostitute"
- The plaintiff is being referred to as "Basterd" which in this context referrs to his mother (allegedly a prostitute) and father not being married which leads to the defendant's opinion that the plaintiff is a "basterd" which is a rather derogatory remark even more so considering the context. 
 
Why was a relatively new forum member delivered a rather (imo) poor service. How do you think this member feels and how does MT feel about the service delivered?
 
Of course you are also invited to publicly discuss how the current MT is going to improve this process.
 
3. Many reports in the 'topics of abusive behavior (2018)' threads have not yet received a "A case has been opened" status update. 

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#304 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 11:21 AM

 
 
 

 

One minor note
I don't recall acknowledging it. I vaguely remembered something about the possibility of temporarily having an orange name. As I believe it was Greg who did the communication for the orange colours back then, I was not 100% sure whether MT's statement about the temporary status was correct, thus did not challenge it.
 
I do want to point out, too, that the remark about the temporary remark was not challenged because the latest MT position, communicated by Napoleon, was that the orange team would continue. 
JFsNCRg.png
 
"Then however we got a complaint from 1 of them" Greg was more vocal about it, but I definitely mentioned (perhaps not to the extent where one would consider it'complaint') too. Even working with MT to find a solution to avoid any possibly similar situations in the near future for ex-staff. Greg being more vocal might have to do with the WTT (World Team(s) Tournament). I only had to arrange one game after the removal of orange status and luckily had a very old I had sent to TheO which then was used to arrange the match. For me it was an inconvenience. I had good faith that a proper solution would be found. Greg either did not or considered it more than an 'inconvenience'.
 
As for making a special topic for Napoleon's resignation; it is something that crossed my mind too, but ultimately I decided against doing it myself as it probably would've been perceived as a provocation.

 

 

That is true . I was more vocal on this. And the answer I took indirectly is that I refuse to work in my mailbox :)
 
I have made Lonello  2 times the same question in pm but he refuses to give me an answer so I will ask this time  in public:
 
Lonello , can you please clarify what you mean  saying that I refused  to work in my PMs ?


#305 Lonello

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 12:37 PM

It's very simple. We had for instance Danis resigning as Mod last and he encountered the same problems, naturally. He worked his PM's down to a level and everything operated fine again, which apparantly was so for 2/3 WCO-managers as well. But you complained that you had just too many open and worked it as a database. We took this complaint and filed for restoration, and also filed a longterm, currently pending, proposal you should ask Nortrom what that is about as it is yet unsure we can make it so, but hopefully we can. We tried for Danis last with several formal Requests but got nowhere, but this futuristic plan, hopefully not too far in the future but soon to be accomplished, would fairly solve the problems for all former Staff.


Lo

#306 MTinsley

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 03:41 PM

Lonello and others, Would it be possible for all users to still have an increased PM capacity? 100 messages is too small for a lot of people. At the moment I am nearly full already, after only opening about 20 QA tournament topics.

A limit of 200 messages is probably more suitable for us non-staff.

Is this change possible to make? I assume you would have to ask the administrators for something like this, and of course it would depend on server space.

Edited by MTinsley, 08 March 2018 - 03:44 PM.


#307 Nortrom

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 04:02 PM

I suggested this aswell but I doubt it will be done, as you mentioned, it would take away server space. Shouldn't be that much of an issue though. I believe it was 50 first and then was raised to 100 but I might be wrong.


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#308 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 04:51 PM

It's very simple. We had for instance Danis resigning as Mod last and he encountered the same problems, naturally. He worked his PM's down to a level and everything operated fine again, which apparantly was so for 2/3 WCO-managers as well. But you complained that you had just too many open and worked it as a database. We took this complaint and filed for restoration, and also filed a longterm, currently pending, proposal you should ask Nortrom what that is about as it is yet unsure we can make it so, but hopefully we can. We tried for Danis last with several formal Requests but got nowhere, but this futuristic plan, hopefully not too far in the future but soon to be accomplished, would fairly solve the problems for all former Staff.

 danis_p_gr resigned 27th January

That means the problem with pm boxes was known weeks ago and certainly when MT asked to demote WCO team , request to admins  which was made during the  last week of February.

This contrasts Napoleon"s answer in 3rd of March over here

 

Greg,

 

For your info the action item for admins to restore your wco colors has been done already after MT has reached majority on this some time this afternoon. This is purely pending admin action now.

 

 

13. "Admins told us "Let's think about ways to discourage politics and powerplay on the forum"" Do you agree with me that the demotion of the WCO team was a political action?

 

I agree it can be perceived as such but as I wrote somewhere above and as tobermoryx wrote as well this action has gone through because the 2 mods who usually offered their time and service to make sure any tournament manager gets the right color at the right time and who have always received positive replies for their service just thought this was normal to remove colors from somebody who will not have anything to do in the next 5 months with those colors. Sincerily I don't think any of my colleagues anticipated the problem with the pm boxes nor any of my colleagues had any political or "revenge" intention when asking admins to do it. This is my opinion it is unfortunate it happened

14. Do you agree with me that many forumers believe that the demotion of the WCO team was a political action?

 

yes, see above

 

 

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#309 GaryLShelton

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 05:15 PM

Greg, the fact that things have been restored should allow this matter to rest, shouldn't it?

 

:)



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#310 Nortrom

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 05:33 PM

"Let me pull that knife from your back and all is well"

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#311 Morx

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 10:41 PM

We got a question on the empowering of WCO.

 

 

As the tone in your message was a lot better, let me be a bit nicer too

 

Actually it was more of a remark that the story changed about a number of times, first it was a threat to take the powers, then it was taken by the admins as a warning to us, then something else, then something else and now something else again.

 

Lets call it "bending the truth a bit each time depending on the situation"  and "hiding things a little bit from the unhappy users"?

 

Sounds better than cover-up and lies, these words lose meaning at some point



#312 Morx

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 10:47 PM

. Myself as the man of proper procedures I have been pressing many, many times in MT to use the template TC for instance has in an official Announcement and Log topic.

 

I have actually done a few case reviews on a few recent cases regarding the following of process and procedures.

Let me show the readers the results of this hard work:

 

These are the steps followed in Nortrom vs Lonello 1: (libel/slander/lies)

 

Notice that Lonello is the accused here and should not be involved in any of the process steps.

 

The numbers refer to the post numbers.

321 Nortrom requests case to be opened
326 Napoleon 1er claims that MT cannot judge cases against their members:"As you know MT cannot be judge and party so we cannot judge cases against ourselves. For any claims you may have against MT you are invited to contact customercare directly. They have already been informed of your lamentations.."
327 Nortrom responds with site policy 1.3 (MT can judge themselves)

 

334 Morx offers addition evidence

 

335 Lonello (accused) discusses cases current being handled: "Morx, all these petty 'cases' of the last week currently under Admin review only show the pathetic behavior of Nortrom. There ofcourse is a huge list of abuse of Nortrom left in plain sight on the forum. I for one have always advised to keep them there and not hide so everyone can witness it, and so is Admin. We're not only morons and what have you. "

424 Morx asks about status of the case

 

445 Lonello (who is accused ) claims the case is closed
446 Lonello impersonates the act of closing the case "Case versus Lonello: the MT views this as no case. (note: Lonello himself could not vote here)"

450 Morx asks other members of MT (not Lonello) not involved in the case to reply
450 Lonello moves the process request to Future of the MT thread
450 Morx moves it back

451 Lonello warns Morx that the process request is in the wrong thread
452 Morx asks other members of MT (not Lonello) if the thread should be used for process questions
453 Tobermoryx confirms this is the correct thread
454 Morx asks status request referring to his post in 450
456 Morx clarifies process question
458 Tobermoryx publishes statements



#313 DarthRemark

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 03:02 AM

Good grief.  Two days away and the sniping continues... 

 

UNSUBCRIBE
 
I'll be in Off Topic if any of you want to chat about something else.

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#314 Lonello

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 08:25 AM

LOL, yes. Maybe if you don't respond here anymore it's best to keep requoting your old words since it's all repeating from this point anyway ;).

 

I don't know who fired the first shot but it's time for both sides to lower the weapons.  Some act like this forum is something other than a private website that they have no control over.  They imagine it's a small country with courts and leaders that can be voted or forced out.  They think people here can change programming or enforce ISF rules when the game doesn't support it.  It needs to stop now.  The MT isn't evil or incompetent. They're volunteers trying to keep this a fun place.  It's tragic that they've reacted badly to the badgering but it's easy to appreciate that they feel ambushed.  They're human beings.  The goal of some to remove them is a big fantasy.  You can spam customer support and try to cause a ruckus, but the admins work with the MT and know them.  It's easy for them to see they do most things reasonably well.  It's highly unlikely they'd remove them and the site would be worse off if it happened.  If they see too much dysfunction though they might just turn the forum off.  It's not like a ton of people use it. 
 

 

 

 

I have a solution for this problem.  Since it's clear this dispute has less to do with what's good for Stratego.com and everything to with something else, the following compromise should be acceptable for all:
 
A- Lonello agrees to stop commenting about Nortorm and Morx directly or indirectly.  Another Mod will speak to all issues involving these players going forward.  If Lonello violates his part the MT agrees to immediately remove him as a Mod.
 
B-  Morx and Nortrom stop their insistence that Lonello or other MT be removed and stop polluting the forums with divisive commentary.  If Morx or Nortrom violate their part they receive an immediate PB. 
 
This does not prevent Morx and Nortrom from making constructive recommendations, even if those include some mechanism for removing MT, and/or serving as site staff themselves.
 
C- All involved should agree to bury the hatchet and start over as Stratego friends.  Though unnecessary it would go a long way towards peace and harmony.  

 

 

 


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Lo

#315 Morx

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 08:29 PM

@Lonello/Darth:

 

I promised to come back on the total unfairness of Darths "plan":

 

"I have a solution for this problem.  Since it's clear this dispute has less to do with what's good for Stratego.com and everything to with something else"

 

I honestly believe that there are serious quality improvements to be made. This is why I offered my time to help achieve a plan that would aid the site. Any suggestions that this is about something else, I do not support. For 3 years, I did not put a single question/complaint regarding the functioning of the MT.  A large number of bad decisions  recently made by MT, made me change my mind.

 

I know they are all volunteers, but they should be the face of the site and of high standing as judges and have some level of competence and integrity.

 

B-  Morx and Nortrom stop their insistence that Lonello or other MT be removed and stop polluting the forums with divisive commentary.  If Morx or Nortrom violate their part they receive an immediate PB.

 

Completely ridiculous. If I honestly believe that someone is doing an extremely bad job and/or is breaking just about all the rules he/she is supposed to protect, then silencing me is not fair. 

 

Threatening with a Permaban for being a concerned user outing incompetence, abuse of power, lies and cover ups sounds like putting a honest journalist in jail (as is custom in some less developed countries) or a political enemy.


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#316 MTinsley

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 08:55 PM

Morx and Nortrom care about the site, as can be evidently seen from the amount of time they have spent making these points. Silencing the vocal criticisms won't do anything to ease the tension. A solution needs to be found, by us all working together to achieve something fair for all.

Regarding the complaints about Lonello, I can certainly understand how his posts may have been misinterpreted, due to English not being his first language. However, I don't think he is guilty of libel or slander. I don't think he purposefully intended to state false facts and information. That's just my personal opinion from me as a member though. The MT and administrators already, I believe, reached a similar verdict internally after an admin review, and Lonello could not vote on those cases.

I understand you are all after more transparency and more democratic procedures, but transparency is a tricky topic. Personally, I think if every MT member revealed how they voted on each case, then that would create more "drama" and tension than most people would realize. For example, friends of MT members would complain when the MT has not voted in their favor. Certain MT members can, and do, clarify their positions when necessary during discussions.

I'm not a supporter of community-led MT elections. It would turn the MT into a popularity contest in which the most mature and responsible candidate may not be chosen. However, I do agree with the idea of allowing the community to anonymously rate the current MT and to start no confident petitions, if there is a substantial portion of the userbase in disagreement.

MTinsley

Edited by MTinsley, 09 March 2018 - 08:59 PM.

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#317 Nortrom

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 09:17 PM

"I don't think he purposefully intended to state false facts and information" If he did not, he could have rectified it when I challenged his statements which he did not. I've given him fair notice that his statements were not true and asked (demanded) for rectification. It was his and his decision alone to not do it. This has nothing to do with "misinterpretation".
 
Some nice examples which I am curious to know how you interpret ;) those.
 
"but I am witness to Nortrom's crimes live. Very dirty."
 
"Always demanding things but as asked of him earlier, then you should also deliver. But he can't be burdened with anything more than 1 tourney as volunteering work"
 
"we have had only unanimous decisions with as only goal to keep this an unbiased and impartial forum which goal we have clear knowledge of the opposing party has not."
 
"Then once in power, this new MT will consist of 5 clones of Sadistic trainees: that new MT can swear along, use pornographic material and vulgarity as much as they want"
 
Perhaps you are of opinion that lonello does not know what 'pornographic material' means, but I doubt anyone will have problems interpreting this statement.
 
Worth noticing is that cases that were brought up several days ago have not yet received a "case has been opened yet". It appears MT is now publicly obstructing people who have legitimate concerns.

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#318 MTinsley

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 09:25 PM

Can you provide post numbers and links please? I would like to see them all in context.

Thank you.

Edited by MTinsley, 09 March 2018 - 09:25 PM.


#319 Nortrom

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 10:34 PM

 
 
 
 
The forum has a search function

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#320 MTinsley

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 12:32 AM

Nortrom, I read through those quotes and the whole thread again. I can't comment on every exact detail due to a lack of knowledge about older forum events, but here is what I have to offer:

-

" If he did not, he could have rectified it when I challenged his statements "

He has clarified his position on a few statements throughout the topic, such as here which clarified on the first paragraph of this post and others within the same topic speculating on the restoration of powers.

Lonello has not addressed every single point. Some points have been addressed instead by other MT members from what I can see. Lonello also stated he would rather 'stop commenting' and thus stop defending himself: here

-

"but I am witness to Nortrom's crimes live. Very dirty."

I think here Lonello uses the word 'crimes' figuratively to refer to your team's misdeeds rather than literally. He is not implying that you have broken any laws.

It seems he is referring to a Dutch tournament. Unfortunately I do not know anything about that so my insight is extremely limited.

-

"Always demanding things but as asked of him earlier, then you should also deliver. But he can't be burdened with anything more than 1 tourney as volunteering work and with Elections chosen next to a couple of electees from current MT he said he'd leave at the spot, leaving the workload to the remaining ones."

Lonello is referring to your debates and criticisms including asking certain MT members to step down. For example this , and your satirical StrategoDale posts which are a subtle lighthearted jab at the MT.

Lonello is of the opinion that one should be expected to step up and willing to help out if that user is criticizing something heavily. That's why he says "but you should also deliver" [to the MT].

The comment about "only running one tournament" is hyperbole. Though technically at the moment you are only involved in the organization of one event, the WCO, in the past you have accomplished much more than most ever will.

-

"The only attitude I have in my entire life is act outspoken against bullying which is why you see me responding more but in MT and with Admin we have had only unanimous decisions with as only goal to keep this an unbiased and impartial forum which goal we have clear knowledge of the opposing party has not."

In the last paragraph before the aforementioned quote, Lonello talks about a picture -- presumably a middle finger sign -- posted on the forum that was later removed.

I interpret the 'unanimous verdict' comment to refer to that specific incident. The picture was removed, but you was not punished. Of course I am not on the MT so I can not categorically state whether my hypothesis, about that incident being a 'unaminous verdict' is indeed correct.

Naturally, the MT will not agree upon everything, so the MT functions with a team vote to eventually decide the best course of action for the cases the MT can handle.

-

"Then once in power, this new MT will consist of 5 clones of Sadistic trainees: that new MT can swear along, use pornographic material and vulgarity as much as they want and fully biased warmonger the arch enemy out, for that would be an upgrade from current MT. That is their logic, as envisioned here on the forum. Well, good luck with that."

Lonello uses hyperbole here. He does not mean for such comments to be taken literally out of context.

He is never claimed that you have posted pornographic material on the forum.

He is perhaps insinuating that Sadistic has at some point done all of those things. I do not know for sure, however. So I can not confirm nor deny the veracity of those claims in that paragraph. You will have to wait for clarification from Lonello, I can only offer my own interpretations whether right or wrong.

-

If you have any further quotes or any additional queries I will check them out. As repeated from my final paragraph, I am only offering my own interpretations for these quotes as you have personally requested. I can not state for certain that this is what Lonello's posts were intended to mean.

I firmly believe that Lonello does not intend to have said 'false facts' deliberately. I agree that some posts may be misunderstood or ambiguous, however, I do not think that Lonello has any nefarious motives.

Kind regards,
MTinsley

Edited by MTinsley, 10 March 2018 - 12:35 AM.





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