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possible solution for draw refusal


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#1 bobdylanrules

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:01 PM

Hi,

 

would it be an idea to have a maximum of moves. Let say when  after 100 moves (each player ) nothing is captured, exchanged or loss to a bomb the game is automatically a draw. Like in chess after 50 moves. I think  100 moves is enough for a player to move pieces for an attack or to do at least something. With 100 moves the draw refuser can still waste your time, but there is finally an end :).

 

I'm interested in your opinion about this.



#2 astros

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:13 PM

If I want to be a jerk I can take 15 seconds per move and make the game last 25 more minutes. Additionally, there are situations where an automatic draw after X moves is a bad idea.
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#3 bobdylanrules

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:37 PM

You're of course right about  a person can make the still game long. But maybe they will not do this anymore when they know after 25 or more minutes the game will be finished anyway. Can you explain what kind of situations  there are, an  automatic draw after X moves is a bad idea? I am not a strong player so that is why I am asking.



#4 astros

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:52 PM

Let player A have a general, an unknown bomb and an open flag. Let player B have 2 seargents. In this scenario, Player A should eventually loses every time. However, he can keep chasing one of the seargents enough to rack up the move count and force a draw.
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#5 astros

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:59 PM

That might not be the right scenario. However, there are situations where you could chase a lot when at a disadvantage to force a draw.
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#6 bobdylanrules

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:12 PM

I understand what you mean. Thanks for  the explanation.


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#7 Fairway

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:26 PM

From 43:31 to 51:06 No pieces are captured, I count 82 or 84 moves. Not quite 100 but certainly there could be another example where there's more than 100:

 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=zWHhxslXXDQ


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#8 GaryLShelton

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 12:09 AM

That might not be the right scenario. However, there are situations where you could chase a lot when at a disadvantage to force a draw.

 

 

You will be blocked after ten single chases by the HmmNess Rule.  For double chasing, yes, currently no limit. Currently.



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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604


#9 astros

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 12:12 AM

You will be blocked after ten single chases by the HmmNess Rule.  For double chasing, yes, currently no limit. Currently.


I am aware. However, I can chase you for 10 moves, make a non-chasing move, and then start chasing you again, getting to 100 moves quickly.
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#10 GaryLShelton

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 12:19 AM

I am aware. However, I can chase you for 10 moves, make a non-chasing move, and then start chasing you again, getting to 100 moves quickly.

 

Yes, I suppose so,  but in your situation above with the general against two sergeants, in that situation the two sergeants will have the game completely in their control due to zugzwang.  The general's only hope is in the placement of his unknown bomb.  If the unknown bomb is cleverly placed enough, the general wins but everyone's money will be on the two sarge's.



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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604


#11 GaryLShelton

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 12:29 AM

You're of course right about  a person can make the still game long. But maybe they will not do this anymore when they know after 25 or more minutes the game will be finished anyway. Can you explain what kind of situations  there are, an  automatic draw after X moves is a bad idea? I am not a strong player so that is why I am asking.

 

 

As malcom.jansen said a player can take up to 15 seconds per move and so even if you move instantaneously only 4 moves will be made by your opponent in one minute.  This makes our current 10 minute draw rule seem brief in comparison.  25 minutes is a terrible amount of time.

 

There have been other discussions about the autodraw and you might want to do a bit of research and read up on a few.  We have archives that are full of stuff.  Search for 'autodraw' and you'll find them.  There have been some very good ideas advanced over time.  But I've never seen anyone nail the answer to a perfect consensus.  At one point 100 moves per player was the general feeling, but it wasn't really a strong consensus.  Napoleon 1er has spoken of trying to have a more sensitive move count on a draw that would be different for different circumstances on the board.  But figuring out the programming of that seemed tricky.   There have been other ideas as well.  

 

For now we have what we have, which is the draw refusal rules, the link to which is found at the bottom of any of my posts. 



i77rs4m.jpg

The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604


#12 astros

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 12:33 AM

Yes, I suppose so,  but in your situation above with the general against two sergeants, in that situation the two sergeants will have the game completely in their control due to zugzwang.  The general's only hope is in the placement of his unknown bomb.  If the unknown bomb is cleverly placed enough, the general wins but everyone's money will be on the two sarge's.


Imagine the flag and bomb are at E10 and F10. The sergeants are at A1 and J1 and the general is a B2. Player B's flag is at G1 and surrounded by bombs. No other pieces are on the board.

The general can chase the sergeant 10 times and back off, Player B can then move one of his pieces towards the unknowns. As the rules currently are, the general will have to continue to yield such that Player B can place his sergeants next to each unknown and win. However, by chasing 10 times between every non-chasing move, the game will quickly get to 100 non-contact moves. This forces Player B to guess with a single sergeant and risk a loss or take an auto draw in a game that is a clear win for them.
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#13 GaryLShelton

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:59 AM

In your scenario with the one sarge on A1 and the general on B2, I'm assuming move one for the auto draw is the very next move. How it goes kind of depends on whose move it is. If the general has not chased yet in this situation and it is his move, then the sarge's win handily because they already have the Two Squares advantage. The general can only chase 10 moves. Say he chases to B1 and our A1 sarge (#1) goes to A2. The general proceeds to chase in the 2nd file all the way to the other side where the sarge ends at A10. The general will be stopped from moving to B10 by HmmNess and will therefore retreat to C9. He now does not have any Two Squares advantage over anything. Then our intrepid A10 sarge #1 will step up to B10, and an invariable end commences for the general. He chases three times and ends up on C10 with the first sarge now at B9 and then the general is forced to move to D10 next, and again our B9 sarge moves into C9. After another three move series, the general is at D9 and our sergeant #1 is at C10. Now the general has to move to E9 in front of his non-movable piece (bomb or flag) while our intelligent sergeant remains at C10. Instead, partner sarge #2 waiting at J1 moves to J2. The general has made 18 moves at this point. He moves back to D9. Sarge #2 moves to J3. The general chases to D10/D9/D10 again. The first sarge is now at C9. The general chases three times C10/D10/C10, while the sarge evades D9/C9/D9. The general chases again C9/C10/C9 while the sarge moves from D10/D9/D10. The general has now moved 28 times. Now HmmNess will preclude him from moving to D9 and chasing a tenth move in a row. The general moves to C8. Sarge #1 is at D10 next to a non-movable. Sarge #2 moves to J4. The general moves to C9. Sarge #2 moves to J5. The general resumes chasing around the 2x2 set of squares from D9/C9/D9, then to D10/D9/D10 then to C10/D10/C10. Sarge #1 is at D9 and the general has moved 39 times. The general must now move away again, due to HmmNess, to B10. Sarge #2 moves to J6. The gen moves back to C10. Sarge #2 moves to J7. Now the general strikes up chasing again. D10/C10/D10; D9/D10/D9; C9/D9/C9. Sarge #1 is now at D10 again, and the general has made 50 moves. The general moves away to C8. Sarge #2 moves to J8. Gen to C9. Sarge #2 to J9.

And it all repeats. The gen chases his set from D9/C9/D9 to D10/D9/D10 to C10/D10/C10 and sarge #1 ends up on D9 again. The general has moved 61 times. He is forced to move away to B10. Sarge #2 to J10. Gen moves back to C10. Sarge #2 to I10. The general chases D10/C10/D10; D9/D10/D9; C9/D9/C9 once more and sarge #1 is at D10 now. General to C8. Sarge #2 to H10. General back to C9. Sarge #2 to G10. The general has now made 74 moves. Sarge #1 dies valiantly on the E10 bomb. General makes 75th move to D9. Sarge #2 wins the flag at F10.

That's one way it could go down anyway. Whew! :D


This would be complicated to show even using the Stratego Editor. :)

i77rs4m.jpg

The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604


#14 bobdylanrules

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 10:48 AM

As malcom.jansen said a player can take up to 15 seconds per move and so even if you move instantaneously only 4 moves will be made by your opponent in one minute.  This makes our current 10 minute draw rule seem brief in comparison.  25 minutes is a terrible amount of time.

 

There have been other discussions about the autodraw and you might want to do a bit of research and read up on a few.  We have archives that are full of stuff.  Search for 'autodraw' and you'll find them.  There have been some very good ideas advanced over time.  But I've never seen anyone nail the answer to a perfect consensus.  At one point 100 moves per player was the general feeling, but it wasn't really a strong consensus.  Napoleon 1er has spoken of trying to have a more sensitive move count on a draw that would be different for different circumstances on the board.  But figuring out the programming of that seemed tricky.   There have been other ideas as well.  

 

For now we have what we have, which is the draw refusal rules, the link to which is found at the bottom of any of my posts. 

Ok I will do that and read the archives about this subject autodraw. Thanks all for responding and explaning!






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