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PRO Series 2018 - Questions


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#1 Master Mind

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 03:49 PM

If you have a question about PRO Series 2018 please ask here and a member of TC will get back to you.

 



#2 roeczak

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 10:55 PM

Hi all ! First of all thanks for the organization. I would like you to clarify some things about the draw rules though. 

First of all are we required to provide a screenshot of the position before the draw ? 

Secondly, what would happen if ... 
1)9,8, vs 2,2,2 ? (Europe numbering)
2)5,4 vs 7?
3)All pieces are exchanged? and same number of bombs are taken?
4) 3 vs 8, but the miner has taken all bombs but one and the colonel none?

Etc.


Finally, what would happen for more/less than 32 players?

 


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#3 TheOptician

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 11:17 PM

Hi all ! First of all thanks for the organization. I would like you to clarify some things about the draw rules though. 

First of all are we required to provide a screenshot of the position before the draw ? 

Secondly, what would happen if ... 
1)9,8, vs 2,2,2 ? (Europe numbering)
2)5,4 vs 7?
3)All pieces are exchanged? and same number of bombs are taken?
4) 3 vs 8, but the miner has taken all bombs but one and the colonel none?

Etc.


Finally, what would happen for more/less than 32 players?

 

 

If there is a draw, TC will look to the following criteria’s to conclude the victor:
               1. Who has the most (movable) pieces?
               2. If still a draw, who has the highest piece?
               3. If still a draw, who has diffused most bombs?

 

Your questions 1,2 and 4 are covered (and screenshots will be required)

 

The case of an 'absolute' draw (where the two final pieces are equal and both have the same number of bombs) is extremely rare, but not covered. TC will discuss the tie-breaker.



#4 Major Nelson

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 11:32 PM

Personally, I do not understand at all why you are bringing these new rules about draw. A draw is a draw, even if it is 9,7,4 vs 2 (European numbering); actually I find this to be one of the fascinating aspects of this game, how one can save the draw with only a scout. I mean, it's your tournament, certainly you arrange the rules as you please, but I do not understand why you want to exclude draw as a possible outcome of a match. Even if in a match I had just one scout and the opponent had marsh, gen and one col, I would consider it preposterous if the match was awarded as a defeat for me despite not the opponent's actually managing to beat me.


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#5 roeczak

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 11:40 PM

Charlie, so if I understand correctly three scouts win against gen and col?


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#6 Major Nelson

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 11:45 PM

A question now. If one player only has his spy left and the other one has his marsh, which one wins the game? If there are more pieces the Marsh is more valuable, but in a battle Marsh vs Spy both pieces are equal.

Now consider that each player has an extra sergeant. The marsh can theoretically capture both the sergeant and the spy but the spy can only capture the marsh. In this case I suppose that according to your rules the player with the sergeant and the marsh wins the game?

 

NOTE: assume that both players have diffused equal numbers of bombs.


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#7 Unladen Swallow

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 11:47 PM

I don't like these new draw rules...

 

sometimes the material is irrelevant. positions are draws with material imbalances. You know that


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#8 Unladen Swallow

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 11:59 PM

I see no point of signing up for a tournament where an endgame with marshal, general would lose (not draw) against 3 scouts.

 

It would completely change the way people play. it rewards defensive play if you're counting the # of pieces


Edited by Unladen Swallow, 09 February 2018 - 12:06 AM.

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#9 Master Mind

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 07:12 AM

First of all, TC understands and knows this idea is revolutionary, but we choose to do it because of the following:

 

1. We wanted to have 3 non-elimination qualifier tournaments. For this, the most suitable form of tournament is Swiss Perfect. If we had to run 3 Swiss Perfect tournaments, we would just have a Swiss Perfect overload, as WCO also runs by Swiss Perfect, what means we had to think about some other tournament forms and ideas.

2. If you look to the Online World Championships in the past, only 35 out of 750 games has been drawn. This gives 4,7%. If you apply this to PRO Ladder, there will only be 4 draws (out of 80 games!) in case 32 players sign up (theoratically seen)

3. We had to be a little more creative. By saying draws are forbidden, we could create a new style of playing and enlarge people's theoratical insides in the game. In some cases, you are in an absolute-win position, and your opponent is already good with a draw. In this case, you do not want that draw but play for the win, while your opponent is probably just aiming for a draw. This is very interesting. If you know you cannot rely on a draw, your playing style in that game might be totally different than in a normal game. That's the principle we actually apply in the PRO Ladder, and we are curious how it will work out.

 

I see no point of signing up for a tournament where an endgame with marshal, general would lose (not draw) against 3 scouts.

 

There are 2 more qualifiers coming up ;)



#10 Nortrom

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:56 PM

First of all, TC understands and knows this idea is revolutionary not thought out well, but we choose to do it because of the following:

 

Fixed that.

 

At any rate, there are going to be lots of examples that are difficult to judge. How would you judge three bombed in sergeants for example?


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#11 TheOptician

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:37 PM

For the purposes of the tie-break - any piece that isn't a bomb or a flag is considered movable..

No judging will therefore be required, unless players disagree on which pieces remain on the board (which could happen if both players are disconnected and lose their graveyard).

#12 TheOptician

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:41 PM

If one player only has his spy left and the other one has his marsh, which one wins the game?


The player with the marsh left wins (Criteria 2)

#13 TheOptician

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:41 PM

Charlie, so if I understand correctly three scouts win against gen and col?


Correct (Criteria 1)

#14 TheOptician

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:45 PM

Major Nelson> I do not understand why you want to exclude draw as a possible outcome of a match.

This is only the case in the Ladder format, which requires a winner. For this tournament only, TC are trailing this tie-break criteria for games which would be otherwise be draws. This is because replays use up more time than is available. If it goes down badly, then we will review for next time.

#15 TheOptician

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:46 PM

what would happen for more/less than 32 players?


TC will clarify this with an added section in the rules

#16 Don_Homer

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 03:19 PM

I think draws give an extra dimension and nuance to the game. Without draws its a bit too black and white. I heard about a +draw and a minus draw in draughts. Maybe this is a better idea? You get even more nuance then instead of less.

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#17 TheOptician

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 04:11 PM

This isn't an attempt to change the game of Stratego forever. For one tournament only, there is a 'different' nuance to the draw rules which will (I'm betting) eliminate draws and save administration costs... This is because the Ladder format only works without draws.

If this change actually means that the game is played very differently, then that is not the intention, but it is the same for everyone who enters the Ladder. Just consider it as a variation of Stratego, like QA. If it's not for you then this is fine :-)
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#18 Fks

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 04:16 PM

Can't you just replay a game if it ends up in a draw. 1 week is enough time to play 2 games of stratego. Maybe we should just not let moghidian play :)
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#19 evenseass

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 04:18 PM

yes thats a much better idea



#20 evenseass

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 04:19 PM

it means i could shuffle all day if i have the material advantage (in # of pieces), because if its a draw, i win. And it puts pressure on my opponent to make big risks to defend himself from an automatic drawn-loss. 

 

it'll change stratego into a game of who can shuffle and defend all their pieces the most optimally. rather than a game of who can find the flag first


Edited by evenseass, 09 February 2018 - 04:22 PM.




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