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Double Chasing Abuse


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Poll: Double Chasing Abuse (13 member(s) have cast votes)

Should the MT judge draw refusal cases where there is clear evidence that the accuser double chased?

  1. Yes (5 votes [38.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.46%

  2. No (8 votes [61.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.54%

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#1 astros

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 05:49 AM

This player lottoed many of my pieces so I was in a significant hole. However, he managed to blow his lead steadily over the latter half of the game. At the end, I had 3 miners, a lieutenant and a marshal to his marshal, general, major and sergeant. He then spent 15 minutes double chasing me and not allowing me to advance the game before threatening to report me for draw refusal if I did not accept a tie.

 

Moderators, please establish a rule that you will not judge draw refusal cases where the defendant has video evidence that his accuser double chased. This way players like Mazuzam cannot get away with cheating by exploiting software bugs.

 

Thanks,

MJ


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#2 Fks

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 06:33 AM

I was in a similar spot where I did decline the draw offered by my opponent. I then went on to pm Tobermoryx to ask him the rule on double chasing as I thought it wasn't allowed and he told me there is nothing against double chasing on this site which then led me to give my opponent the draw. I feel Double chasing shouldn't be allowed.

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#3 OuweSok

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 08:11 AM

This thread is awful and redundant.

It has already been established that all players dislike chasers and double chasers and that it must be dealt with by MT.
Highly amusing to see how you turn around on the subject now that you have been victim of it yourself, malcolm

However: innocent until proven guilty. It should be prohibited that players accuse other players and post player names without providing adequate proof.
I think a mod should edit the player name out of the thread title, unless you provide recorded evidence.

We do not want another shouting match of who lies and who sucks, if the other player starts defending himself itt

Stop running around like headless chickens. Start recording your games in full.

When someone starts chasing, tell him in chat that:
A) you are recording
B) you will make the recording public
C) Chasing is against ISF rules
D) MT might issue a penalty.

Tell your opponent that - twice. If he doesn't listen, open a full case against that player and try to create a precedent.
When MT is finally faced with a gruesome example of (double) chasing, they might act. Until that moment, we cannot expect they will.

You do not record your games? Well then, unlucky for you and have a nice day.

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#4 Nortrom

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 09:17 AM

How exactly should a game end when draw refusal and (endless) double chasing are both allowed? whoever disconnects first?


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#5 KissMyCookie

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 09:51 AM

Someone asked me why I dislike this person's posts. I will annotate what I like here, what I dislike, and even translate:

1)

This thread is awful and redundant.

An arrogant judgment on OldFool's part–malcom.jansen has a right to start a discussion if he so chooses, and this discussion is bringing a specific focus to this specific scenario.

 

2)

It has already been established that all players dislike chasers and double chasers and that it must be dealt with by MT.

Established or not, it has been a broad based discussion on double chasing...but this is the first discussion which prompts the question: Is it possible to start a double chase and be responsible for stalling the match, then demand a draw refusal case when this very person knows that they are responsible for the situation?

 

3)

Highly amusing to see how you turn around on the subject now that you have been victim of it yourself, malcolm

OldFool will laugh at someone (here, he is pointing a finger at malcom.jansen) and gets nasty with them when it suits him, but you see, when I pointed out to him that he was doing this is when he decided to block me. This is a hypocritical and unnecessary comment from him. OldFool needs to learn the proverb:

    "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones."

 

4)

However: innocent until proven guilty. It should be prohibited that players accuse other players and post player names without providing adequate proof.

This is a fair statement and I agree in concept. The point of making an accusation is so that a case will be opened, not necessarily to announce someone as guilty before due process.

 

5)

I think a mod should edit the player name out of the thread title, unless you provide recorded evidence.

More of his hypocrisy–when the MT edited something out that OldFool had written, he called the MT "nazis." Again, he should learn the meaning of the phrase, "Do as I say, not as I do," because he is categorically guilty of this hypocrisy.

 

6)

We do not want another shouting match of who lies and who sucks, if the other player starts defending himself itt

Stop running around like headless chickens. Start recording your games in full.

This is a fair statement in general and I agree with the basic principal, but it does not directly apply to malcom.jansen's post: referring to m.j's post, there is no mention of who is lying or who 'sucks.'

 

7)

When someone starts chasing, tell him in chat that:
A) you are recording
B) you will make the recording public
C) Chasing is against ISF rules
D) MT might issue a penalty.

Tell your opponent that - twice. If he doesn't listen, open a full case against that player and try to create a precedent.

This is solid and good advice. If a player has this resource available, then by all means, this would be the very best way in which to mount a successful case, should the video example illustrate these precise points. I agree completely.

 

8)

When MT is finally faced with a gruesome example of (double) chasing, they might act. Until that moment, we cannot expect they will.

This assumes facts not in evidence–MT has demonstrated on various occasions that they are well aware of borderline issues, game-site modus operandi (or lack thereof) problems, unusual cases with no precedent, and a willingness to debate, although there are cases which forum members have vehemently disagreed with an MT ruling and have even continued expressing a firestorm of their anger regarding such a matter–MT is not perfect, but if one wants a chance to sway their opinion, then that person must make due diligence in pursuing the collection, assembly, and presentation of facts in order to convince the MT of their point of view. OldFool makes too much of a generalized judgment upon MT, thus it is another useless comment.

 

9)

You do not record your games? Well then, unlucky for you and have a nice day.

Typical OldFool passive/aggressiveness. The question is legitimate, but I remember that malcom.jansen explained that his hard-drive is almost full and thus, until he can remedy the situation, he is fully aware of the disadvantage that this presents; ergo, when he has the time to deal with it, he will and knows full well how to collect and present evidence.

 

The last comment translates into, roughly, "Stop complaining and drop dead."

 

Most of his post is sarcastic laden drivel and is practically useless, and for the most part, he is condescending and unhelpful. There are, however, the couple of comments which are useful. These are a few reasons I draw attention to his diatribe–he is simply making himself an easy target.

 

KMC


Edited by KissMyCookie, 25 January 2018 - 10:03 AM.


#6 Lonello

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:24 AM

I am glad you seem willing to change your vote and make it a 100% in that other poll, malcom ;). I'm sure your vote will make the difference :).

 

Anyhow, I do not see the particular problem in your game. We have a Golden Standard yes, but on top is common sense. It's not: 10 minutes, and over. No. If you show progression, evolution, in the game, and poor gold logic indicates you will win this game then we won't allow for a forced draw. So it's all about intent.


Lo

#7 OuweSok

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:28 AM

How exactly should a game end when draw refusal and (endless) double chasing are both allowed? whoever disconnects first?

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#8 astros

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 12:18 PM

How exactly should a game end when draw refusal and (endless) double chasing are both allowed? whoever disconnects first?

That is an issue. In this specific instance the player told me he would quit after 10 minutes and report me. I assume the game would have ended at that point.

I did not bother recording this game because a moderator told me I would be convicted of draw refusal even though my opponent was double chasing. Furthermore, it is tough to establish a penalty for double chasing because it is not inherently obvious why it is wrong in the way that draw refusal is. However, to sucessfully report someone for draw refusal, one must be a forum member and should have an idea what double chasing is. Mazuzam indicated that he did not care because the software did not stop him. I have never stated that double chasing should be allowed, only that the MT should not open cases for it.

Edited by malcom.jansen, 25 January 2018 - 12:33 PM.

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#9 TemplateRex

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 11:30 PM

Don't know how to delete a post, content is in other topic:

 

http://forum.strateg...-2018/?p=445603


Edited by TemplateRex, 25 January 2018 - 11:37 PM.


#10 mazuzam

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 08:34 PM

It is amusing to me how I have steered the pot.

 

I am being called cheating but as far as I know I was following all the stratego.com rules.

There is no rule on double chasing so there cannot be any discussion about cheating.

Also, it is not exploiting a bug as, again, there is no such rule. I would rather say that in this particular game I was double chased as the opponent started to double chase me. He had stronger pieces but I had miners ready to take his flag.

 

Unless this issue is formalized double chasing is allowed and is part of the tactics for everyone. You always can offer a draw and then report draw refusal if not accepted otherwise don't get caught in a chasing game.

 

Please remove my nickname from this thread as this is accusing me unfairly without any prove and against a rule that does not exist.

 

Best

 

Mazuzam

 

 



#11 OuweSok

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 09:31 PM

Unless this issue is formalized double chasing is allowed and is part of the tactics for everyone. 

 

This is where you lose respect from everyone


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#12 KissMyCookie

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 10:09 PM

This is where you lose respect from everyone

 

Well, I do not know if I can agree with this statement in all fairness.

 

Mazuzam has every right to express his point of view as he is the one in the subject of this thread. Of course, OS, your point has validity, too, because it does highlight the necessity of establishing one's credibility. Let us examine, please...

 

malcom.jansen, as far as I know, has a solid record of credibility: he is not a cheat, he has registered but only ONE alias account and I believe him when he says it is his only alias. He is not a staunch supporter of alias accounts, but he is not a hypocrite, so his credibility remains intact. He is also a contributor to aide us and the MT in keeping order and informing of possible negative activity on the gaming site–he is SOLID.

 

Mazuzam has never been accused of cheating. I do not believe him to be a cheater, either. He seems to be a very up front and direct player. He is against disconnectors and has not ever been accused of disconnecting–in fact, I can vouch for him. He played my teacher during a lesson some months ago–he ultimately started getting slaughtered, and he did not disconnect. He was very thoughtful to his moves and when the game was recognized as being over, Mazuzam surrendered. He has definite credibility.

 

My chronicle and submission of material is presented here only to illustrate the extreme difficulties there are in reviewing such matters because in this specific instance, both parties have credibility and reason behind their positions. It is far too flippant to make a rush to judgment and it does not serve a positive purpose. Unfortunately, it underlines an issue we must ALL contend with regarding double chasing. Rules or no rules, MT cannot find it an easy matter to deal with this because the site does not support this fundamental matter effectively.


Edited by KissMyCookie, 07 February 2018 - 10:12 PM.


#13 Don_Homer

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 10:36 PM

KMC, In all honesty I think you are a bit preoccupied with ouwesok (posts). Yourt critics are not realistic anymore to me because any interpunction he writes get a 'boo' from you. Not funny for anyone Im afraid.
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#14 KissMyCookie

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 10:53 PM

@Don_Homer

 

I am not being critical of his view at all...in fact, I agree with its underlying message. Please re-read it and you will see that I am not opposed to him at all...I am not in alignment completely with his meaning. He opens a very important discussion, albeit I do disagree with certain things in his presentation (not here), but here he makes a good point. So please, I am not on the attack here–thank you for replying and affording me this opportunity.

 

KMC


Edited by KissMyCookie, 07 February 2018 - 10:54 PM.

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#15 Don_Homer

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 11:07 PM

I must confess I didnt read the posts carefully but I see tons of citates of him with "fool" in it multiple times. So I wonder how you can make that positive.

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#16 KissMyCookie

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 11:13 PM

I must confess I didnt read the posts carefully but I see tons of citates of him with "fool" in it multiple times. So I wonder how you can make that positive.

 

In this latest post there is no such word–I am very much aware of this. I do not have a taste for the wording of his post, but he has a solid point. I dare not refer to him as a fool here because he is not. I only bring up the point that this site has an issue all of us must contend with...there is no way to prevent a double chase at present. I do not agree with Mazuzam's reasoning, but you cannot say he has broken a rule of this site...he is in violation of ISF rules...where is the referee? We don't have one. MT serves as the adjudicating authority, and they are bound by site rules...those that are in operation. At any rate, back to your point, you have made mention of something of which I am grateful, but please be careful to read my writing before you jump on me about it.  ;)   You made a good point, Don_Homer, but in this case, it was not accurate to my post.  :)

 

So..I shall sharpen my swords, place my bombs, pay my spy extra money, and find you on the battlefield where we may have...

 

....a pleasant cocktail or beer together!!!  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

 

KMC


Edited by KissMyCookie, 07 February 2018 - 11:15 PM.


#17 mazuzam

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 03:28 AM

Lost respect for recognizing rules. This is funny. I bet OuweSok honks on people that obey speed limit or stop on a stop sign.

Coming back to the topic of double chasing.

This game is a combination of logic and a chance. We do moves thinking about options ahead. When we take risks we need to have plan B. At this point “double chase” is an option to force a draw. If we understand this we need to set up our mind to it and consider this in our tactics. I have learned that on Stratego.com from other players. It does not matter if this is not allowed on other sites it is still allowed on this.

I am not opposed to ban “double or triple chasing” but the rule needs to be enfosable and equal to everyone. I do not accept penalizing something that is not regulated just because several people has different opinion. We will soon complain that someone played lotto and won or someone is passive, etc.

The title sais abuse and my nickname.
I ask the moderator to remove both of these words from the title and my nickname from the posts.

Mazuzam

#18 astros

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 03:31 AM

First, it is important to define why the double chasing rule exists and to do that we must look at single chasing. The motivation for preventing endless single chasing is obvious. A player should not be able to force his or her opponent to surrender a piece or take a draw. If this rule did not exist, then one could continuously challenge a high-ranking piece when losing. There is no strategy in this and it punishes successful play. Building upon this rationale, outlawing double chasing makes sense. Player A should not be able to force Player B to surrender a piece or take a draw by repeating the same moves endlessly. This is particularly pertinent early in games, when in order to accrue an advantage, a lesser player could repeatedly force a superior opponent to surrender pieces to avoid a draw. Therefore, double chasing is something that should be disallowed. However, in a scenario where Player A has two lieutenants and Player B has two non-trapped miners, the double chasing rule appears arbitrary and unfair to Player A out of context. Player A is double chasing to prevent his flag from being captured and not to force Player B to surrender a piece.

 

How should these situations be dealt with?

 

In situation 1, Player A is chasing in a non-end game situation with many pieces on the board. I feel that it is fairly obvious that this is unsporting behavior. However, in Player A's defense, the site stops endless single chasing but does nothing about double chasing. Therefore, while lame, he has a valid defense in that double chasing is not a built in site feature; unlike draws, which make draw refusal clearly wrong. Therefore, in situation 1, I would propose treating the match as "no contest." Player B with sufficient evidence can report the game to the MT and have all his points restored, while Player A has all points from the win removed with no further sanction.

 

In situation 2 (two captains vs two non-trapped miners), Player B has a CLEAR path to victory if Player A does not double chase. No extrapolation is required. Player B should be awarded the win and have 25 points added to his or her account and Player B is given a loss and has 25 points removed with no further sanction.

 

Situation 3 is where it gets complicated. In my game against Mazuzam, I had 3 miners, 1 lieutenant and a marshal. He had a marshal, general, 1 major and 1 sergeant. My flagged was sealed and my marshal was not trapped, with reasonable play, I had a 0 percent change of losing. However, by no means did I have a clear win; I put my chances at roughly 75 percent if he does not double chase. What made me angry in that game was that he acknowledged that he knew he should not be double chasing. However, if he did not do that, how should that game be judged? I did not have a guaranteed victory and there is a good chance that he did not realize he was playing unfairly, should he be given an automatic loss? What if I only had two miners and a much lower chance of winning, should I still be given a win because I was not given a chance to progress the game (even though my chances are slim) and could not have lost? Not to be arrogant, but I am better than the average player on here. What if I was a silver player, I am probably not winning the game in that case. However, it is not fair to give me the win but not a 400-point player in the same situation. I do not know how you reasonably judge this situation.

 

This bring me to my conclusion. The MT cannot establish a fair way to universally deal with double chasing because it is not obviously wrong. Therefore, the change needs to be made on the software end. In the meantime, the MT should apply my rules for situations 1 and 2 and consider double chasing as a factor when evaluating draw refusal and abusive behavior.


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#19 KissMyCookie

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 07:14 AM

I am not opposed to ban “double or triple chasing” but the rule needs to be enfosable and equal to everyone. I do not accept penalizing something that is not regulated just because several people has different opinion. 

 

How should these situations be dealt with?

The MT cannot establish a fair way to universally deal with double chasing because it is not obviously wrong.

 

@Don_Homer–This is along the lines of what I wanted to illustrate, and both malcom.jansen and Mazuzam have offered very important posts regarding this matter directly. OS was right to express the possibility of losing respect from others on this site, and that is to say, credibility. The reason I discussed credibility is because although it is vital, it is not germane to the urgent matter at hand: double chasing on this site. My conclusion was that without a programming patch to correct this awful error, all players will be subject to the loop-hole; ergo, MT is left with the perennial hot potato, and I believe they are in discussions about the matter.

 

Please read my post with this in mind and you will see I had made my point. In the end, malcom.jansen makes outstanding analysis and suggestions regarding the matter, and his contribution can be incredibly useful in helping to establish a course for further discussion. Mazuzam's post is also vital in that it provides a tangible example also important to discussing the matter.

 

KMC



#20 OuweSok

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:38 AM

Lost respect for recognizing rules. This is funny. I bet OuweSok honks on people that obey speed limit or stop on a stop sign.

lol at that comparison.

Chasing and double chasing is stalling. Stalling is like not playing the game, at least not how it intended. In any kind of game or sports stalling results in the stalling party to receive penalties for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Stratego is a game played by two players for their own amusement. Fair play is expected, but in this game unfortunately something that is neigh impossible to enforce by rules, allowing pathetic losers like you to abuse all and any loopholes for only their own interest

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