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Macedonia naming dispute


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Poll: Macedonia naming dispute (20 member(s) have cast votes)

Which is the best solution for the new name of FYROM? (Write your opinion)

  1. Macedonia (3 votes [15.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.00%

  2. Macedonia with qualifier (Northern Macedonia, New Macedonia, Slavic Macedonia) (1 votes [5.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.00%

  3. Name that NOT contains the term Macedonia (16 votes [80.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.00%

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#1 The Achaean

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 09:33 PM

Last days reignited the political dispute between Greece and FYROM (former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) concerning the term "Macedonia" in the name of the second. Since 1991 and the breakup of Yugoslavia, no solution have found, because Greece opposes the use of this term even with a geographical qualifier such as Northern Macedonia.
 
It's a fact that the ancient Greek kingdom of Macedon had territories both in Greece and FYROM. It's also a fact that the capital of the kingdom was Vergina (later Pella), that geographical belong to Greece, and the culture (language, religion etc) was greek. Ancient Macedonians had the right to enter the competitions of Ancient Olymic Games, a right that only Greeks had.
 
At the peak of its glory, kingdom of Macedon and Alexander the Great, conquered lands that include
today lands of Turkey, Iraq, Iran (Persia), Israel, Egypt and India(!). Although none of them claim the history of Macedonia as their own.
 
Waiting for discussion.
 
NVSsTbhDTlSgsRRL8lNLpA.png
 
 

Edited by The Achaean, 15 January 2018 - 09:57 PM.

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#2 Aris1970

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 09:56 PM

the name ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ belongs only to the soul of the Greeks  !!!


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#3 Major Nelson

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 09:58 PM

Macedonia is Greek. Today a people with Slavic origins lives at territories that at ancient times belonged to Macedonia (Greek Kingdom), however this does not in the least bit mean that the people of FYROM can claim Macedonia's heritage as their own. Racially they have completely different origins. The term Macedonia at the country's name is misleading with regard to this people's identity; therefore I do not believe it should be included in the country's name. Since the citizens of FYROM are quite stubborn about keeping the term Macedonia, it could be used with a qualifier that clearly states that the term is geographic and nothing more.


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#4 astros

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 12:42 AM

The whole issue and Greece's actions in the matter are ridiculous. The Republic of Macedonia is in geographic of Macedonia even if the majority of the people are not ethnic Greeks. Greece vetoing NATO membership on the basis of a name is childish; it is in the same vein as the over the top nationalism that Trump spews.

 

I expect to be heavily criticized for my response, but what is the point of making a point like this in a forum where nearly everyone that will respond is Greek? It seems like The Achean is creating this topic just to get an echo chamber of agreement.


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#5 The Achaean

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:40 AM

@malcom.jansen

 

Obviously I will accept your answer and that's the point of this thread. To share our opinions and make dialog. But I will indeed criticize you for your last sentence. I opened this topic mostly to read answers from people from other countries rather than Greece. 

 

I don't think such an issue to be childish or ridiculous because the name it's only a part of the dispute. 

 

Let's say that tomorrow the FYROM changes the name to Macedonia... What about Macedonia (regional unit of Greece) ? We are supposed to change the name ? Or what about Thessaloniki International Airport "Macedonia" ?  (According to their Minister of Foreign Affairs we have to change it)

 

The real problem is the irredentist aspirations of FYROM, who propagandized their people that are the descendants of Alexander the Great, although Slav groups appeared around 6th century near the borders of Byzantine Empire.(7-8 centuries after death of Alexander) 



#6 tobermoryx

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:57 AM

It is nice of those Slavs not to change the name of the land they arrived in.

 

Angles - from Germany - conquered a place and it then became 'Angleland'  (England). 

 

'Scotti' - people from Ireland - conquered somewhere that became Scotland.

 

Some other Germans - Franks - seized the land to the west and it also was renamed for them : France.

 

'Turkey' had thousands of years of history before any Turk ever arrived there

 

etc 



#7 Unladen Swallow

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 09:23 AM

Historically the Macedonia region covered both modern day areas of greece and fyrom.

What's wrong with fyrom renaming itself to eg north macedonia? I dont get why greeks oppose a purely geographical name.

What names do the Greeks propose for the country?

Edited by Unladen Swallow, 16 January 2018 - 09:26 AM.

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#8 dalee

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 10:42 AM

F1yu31q.jpg

 

Macedonia or Macedon (Greek: Μακεδονία, Ancient:  Makedonía) was an ancient kingdom on the periphery of Archaic and Classical Greece, and later the dominant state of Hellenistic Greece. The kingdom was founded and initially ruled by the royal Argead dynasty, which was followed by the Antipatrid and Antigonid dynasties. Home to the ancient Macedonians, the earliest kingdom was centered on the northeastern part of the Greek peninsula, and bordered by Epirus to the west, Paeonia to the north, Thrace to the east and Thessaly to the south. https://en.wikipedia...ncient_kingdom)

 

Some Empires throughout the years:

I69wNb1.jpg

HrSNAyK.jpg

qWhiZQJ.jpg

LDIGVoN.jpg

WUEOQCi.jpg

 

Why FUROM didn't require an other name, from those Empires?

 

Alexander III of Macedon (20/21 July 356 BC – 10/11 June 323 BC), commonly known as Alexander the Great, was a king of the ancient Greek kingdom of Macedon and a member of the Argead dynasty. He was born in PELLA in 356 BC and succeeded his father Philip II to the throne at the age of twenty. He spent most of his ruling years on an unprecedented military campaign through Asia and northeast Africa, and he created one of the largest empires of the ancient world by the age of thirty, stretching from Greece to northwestern India. He was undefeated in battle and is widely considered one of history's most successful military commanders. https://en.wikipedia...ander_the_Great

 

F1yu31q.jpg

 

The gloriest empire was the empire of the Alexander the Great.

The Greek Alexander the Great!

 

The rests are for geopolitical games and for those are ignorants of history...


Edited by dalee, 16 January 2018 - 10:46 AM.

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#9 Lonello

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 11:52 AM

The Republic of Macedonia is in geographic of Macedonia even if the majority of the people are not ethnic Greeks. Greece vetoing NATO membership on the basis of a name is childish; it is in the same vein as the over the top nationalism that Trump spews.

Wow, you know a lot about this stuff. I myself am not very up to date with foreign politics. This Trump guy you mention does ring a bell somewhere though. Something with a trumpet I believe. Hmmmmm. Unsure.

 

Anyway, what does make the news over here is that everybody is going on strike against the Syriza government. Why is there no poll about this? Policemen are going on strike, teachers are, docters... even judges like we are in MT.,. so I can relate to that. How can the most social government go against the people like this? Where is Varoufakis when you need him most? Our own DieselBOOM just last weekend left the Europe Finance group so why is he not replaced by Varoufakis?

 

To subject (before I expel myself for not going on topic) I mentioned this last summer too. We have the exact same problem in my country. We have a province called Brabant, and so does Belgium (those monsters!).

 

We just took the higher ground and called our province Northern Brabant while Belgium just let it be Brabant (those monsters!).

 

So why don't you do that over there? I have heard nothing about NATO or veto's or anything like that. Seems to me you have foremost to deal that a letter or package arrives in the right country. So FYROM (it is called now??) should stay FYROM as that looks very different from Greece, and all letters will be delivered at the right location.

 

As for Alexander the Great, well, he was great. He really was. Trust me. He was. It was Greece first, then The Netherlands second during our golden age when we defeated Spain, the UK, France and all the other petty countries. It was fantastic. It really was. Believe me. It was. But ofcourse Alexander made Greece great again. He did. Trust me. He did. So there's no problem here. It's a true story. It really is.


Lo

#10 Aris1970

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 01:16 PM

Historically the Macedonia region covered both modern day areas of greece and fyrom.

What's wrong with fyrom renaming itself to eg north macedonia? I dont get why greeks oppose a purely geographical name.

What names do the Greeks propose for the country?

 

Vardaska ...is a good (corect) name !

....  this region called Vardaska before 1945

 

 

 

 

aDZpioml.jpg

 

this photo is also a proof of the Hellenic origins of the Alexander The Great
in this photo, our Alexander appears as a descendant of Hercules.
 
Alexander The Great was Greek , the name ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ belongs only to the soul of the Greeks .
Our name is our soul, we do not negotiate it with anyone.

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#11 SEKERTZISS

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 01:40 PM

There is no question Discussions about name .



#12 The Achaean

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 01:17 PM

The latest rumors say that the American diplomat Matthew Nimetz deposited five proposals :
 
1) Republic of New Macedonia - Δημοκρατία της Νέας Μακεδονίας - Republika Nova Makedonija
2) Republic of Northern Macedonia - Δημοκρατία της Βόρειας Μακεδονίας - Republika Severna Makedonija
3) Republic of Upper Macedonia - Δημοκρατία της Άνω Μακεδονίας - Republika Gorna Makedonija 
4) Republic of Vardarska Macedonia - Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας του Βαρδάρη - Republika Vardarska Makedonija 
5) Republic of Macedonia(Skopje) - Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας (Σκόπια) - Republika Makedonija (Skopje)
 
All five proposals containts the term Macedonia with a qualifier.


#13 Don_Homer

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 03:30 PM

I think Archaean wanted a and expected a fair discussion with also enough critism.

I dont know how to judge this but I tend to think some Greek are putting too much importance to this issue. Its ony a name, isnt it? Somehow the majority of the world/Europe probably think first about the country above Greece when they hear "Macedonia".

Edited by Don_Homer, 19 January 2018 - 10:45 PM.

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#14 Major Nelson

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 03:32 PM

Somehow the majority of the world/Europe probably think first about the country above Greece when they hear "Macedonia".

That's exactly our problem! Macedonia should be associated with Greece and Greek history, not a country above it.


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#15 The Achaean

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 05:15 PM

I think Archean wanted a and expected a fair discussion with also enough critism.

I dont know how to judge this but I tend to think some Greek are putting too much importance to this issue. Its ony a name, isnt it? Somehow the majority of the world/Europe probably think first about the country above Greece when they hear "Macedonia".

 

(Actually it's Achaean  :)  )

 

For Greece it's very important matter because as I mentioned the name it's only a part of the dispute. It's provocation to see Skopjan people protest and hold flags with the Vergina Star, an ancient symbol of Macedon, connected to greek history and religion.

 

Ancient Macedonia's official language was Ancient Greek, official religion was Hellenic Polytheism-Dodekatheism. 

  How can anyone connect Slav people with Macedonia   ?

 

Bonus (Macedonian Names):

 

Alexander (Αλέξω+άνδρες) = Defend-protect men 

Philip (Φίλος + ίππος) = Love horses

Craterus (Κρατερός) = Very strong

Hephaestion (Ηφαίστειο) = Volcano

 

23b52266eafecc123cffd5976e7e8947--macedo


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#16 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 10:31 PM

just a question : why did you raise this issue about Macedonia only since it has become independant after disappearing of Yugoslavia? This region was also called Macedonia when it belong to Yugoslavia, so what is different with regard to the name?

 

second question why is that a problem to have the people living there calling their country macedonia? there is Mexico and New mexico but nobody is making issues with the name there? Are there any people on this forum who is coming from the Macedonia (ex-Yugoslavia region)? would be interesting to hear his comment.


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#17 The Achaean

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 09:21 AM

just a question : why did you raise this issue about Macedonia only since it has become independant after disappearing of Yugoslavia? This region was also called Macedonia when it belong to Yugoslavia, so what is different with regard to the name?

 

second question why is that a problem to have the people living there calling their country macedonia? there is Mexico and New mexico but nobody is making issues with the name there? Are there any people on this forum who is coming from the Macedonia (ex-Yugoslavia region)? would be interesting to hear his comment.

 

It's totally different to claim the name as a region of country - and as an independent country, which aims to be part of NATO alliance and European Union.
Furthermore the provocations about greek history, Alexander the Great, even the aspirations of a "Great Macedonia", that includes and greek territories, peaked after breakup of Yugoslavia.
 
 
Concerning your second question,I think your example doesn't match the Balkan situation. Even I'm not familiar with American history,I think New Mexico it's a state of USA, that settled by Mexicans so it's logic to take a name such as New Mexico.
Slav people and Macedonia are two individual parts of history. Only the lands that today Skopjan people are
residents, in the past were a part of Macedonia kingdom and Empire.
Macedonia expanded their borders to India between 327–325 BC . Is India Macedonia too ?


#18 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 10:33 AM

Yes yes yes ... i remember Alexandervthe Great ... he came in the Swiss alps with elefants. ...unfortunately the elephants could not resist the cold temeratures there and died ... so Alexander came back walking ... he could not invade Switzerland!😀
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#19 The Achaean

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 10:51 AM

Yes yes yes ... i remember Alexandervthe Great ... he came in the Swiss alps with elefants. ...unfortunately the elephants could not resist the cold temeratures there and died ... so Alexander came back walking ... he could not invade Switzerland!

 

You are mistaken. You speak about Hannibal, the Carthaginian general, also one of the greatest military leaders in history. 

 

Alexander's military campaign was in East (Persia, India, Egypt etc)


Edited by The Achaean, 19 January 2018 - 10:52 AM.

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#20 FGP_

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 12:00 AM

The whole issue and Greece's actions in the matter are ridiculous. The Republic of Macedonia is in geographic of Macedonia even if the majority of the people are not ethnic Greeks. Greece vetoing NATO membership on the basis of a name is childish; it is in the same vein as the over the top nationalism that Trump spews.

 

I expect to be heavily criticized for my response, but what is the point of making a point like this in a forum where nearly everyone that will respond is Greek? It seems like The Achean is creating this topic just to get an echo chamber of agreement.

 

Your expectation about being (a bit) criticized for your certain response was right.  ;)

 

Many people above expressed their opinions and feelings concerning this serious issue and I find them all acceptable, in spite of disagreeing with some of them.

What I find unacceptable is calling ridiculous our refusal, as Greeks, not to recognize to the Skopjans the "right" to call themselves "Macedonians"​.

 

Personally, I think it's OK to admire someone else's history, but it is something totally different and -as I see it- unacceptable trying to make it yours by ignoring the historical truth. And from the history, we know that Macedonia was always connected with the Ancient-Greek civilization and its origins. In my opinion, the Skopjians should deal with this at some point.

 

Furthermore, Greek's government decision about vetoing NATO membership in 2008 was not "childish".

It was a brave one.

And it would be very nice if we could realize the difference between a nationalist behavior and a patriotic one.

 

And last but not least, we actually don't care about the new name of FYROM or how they should be called. That is not our own business for sure and we shouldn't be involved in this. What we do care is that the term "Macedonia" will never be included in their country's name. That's our only claim !!!

 

Kind regards,

FGP_


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