45 replies to this topic

[tobermoryx]

It is a shame most matches between top players in tournaments will never be seen , but I respect the reasons people have for not wanting their matches made public  .What I am not seeing is any reason at all for a 'permission to record' rule here .

 

Theo i think is just playing devil's advocate with his 'privacy' argument . The opponent is just able to see what you already permitted him to by playing the game in the first place .

[tobermoryx]

I think maybe a way forward would be a tournament where it would be part of the rules that all matches should be available on youtube.

 

Every game would be public , uploaded by one player or the other . No one could complain as those who have a problem with it obviously wouldn't enter .

 

I think there could be 16 players who have published videos before. And then you have players like Hielco and Enigma who never uploaded their games but have always been ok for their opponent to do so.

[Napoleon 1er]

This is an excellent idea.

[Napoleon 1er]

@Napoleon: the WCO recording rules are there to prevent players that spend hours working on a very specific setup/strategy to have their work being made practically worthless after publication.

There are some setups that I would never want posted in a public space for the world to analyze and based on that counter me.
i understand you don't want to have some of your setups published ... but this is precisely my question what shall prevail your desire to not having this setup published or the desire of who has recorded it to publish it? Who from the 2 shall have power of decision and why?

From a video where you see the setup being used even more value can be gained. Sometimes a setup doesnt make sense till you see the order in which the pieces are played.

This is why we ask for consent on publishing. Publishing without consent results in us taking action and a ban. One player already has such a ban from breaking these rules in a previous WCO.

I understand if a player has a setup that he wants to use again that he doesn't want to have it published immediately but what is frankly the problem to do it later on, after a tournament, when he will not use such setup anymore because he already played it 50 times or more and everybody knows it?

[Nortrom]

What I am not seeing is any reason at all for a 'permission to record' rule here .

 

 

 

I fully agree with you - but it is impossible to prevent this from happening (hard, if not impossible to prove)

[Nortrom]

I understand if a player has a setup that he wants to use again that he doesn't want to have it published immediately but what is frankly the problem to do it later on, after a tournament, when he will not use such setup anymore because he already played it 50 times or more and everybody knows it?

 

Some setups have this one or two very particular things about them, that you can deploy once per player. 

[Napoleon 1er]

I understand what you mean with those little specialties but frankly after wco is over or at some time in future you will not be able to use them anymore as everybody will know them. Would that then be a possibility to publish that game later on?

[Nortrom]

Not sure whether you're reffering to our latest game or not, but I don't see any neccesity in having my games featured on YT or similair sites.

[TheOptician]

To return the discussion to the original question I'd like to distinguish between

Recording of match
Publication of a match

This topic is about whether permission to record should be allowed. (Permission to publish is a secondary question)

So far, while I have seen objections to publication without permission (on the grounds that elements of strategy and set-up would be revealed to a wider audience than a player is happy with) I haven't seen anyone yet raise any objections to recording without permission.

[Napoleon 1er]

the question is who has the power to decide recording or not? Only the player who wants to record a game can decide to do so, the other player cannot decide for his opponent whether to record it or not as he has no possibility to verify it. The question raised above remains, whose desire shall prevail, the desire from player A to record a game  or the desire from player B to not having player A recording a game ? For me it is quite obvious who wants to record a game has the power to decide it himself and his desire to record prevails 

[TheOptician]

It is unprincipled to argue that just because a rule cannot be enforced it should not exist. Is murder allowed in circumstances where you can guarantee you won't be caught? Of course not. You cannot always enforce the rule 'no murders'.
Enforceability is a secondary consideration to th moral consideration.

If players do not wish their opponent to record their game - and thus prevent their opponent from retaining information about their playing style and set-up that can only been achieved by the act of recording (long after the memory of the game has faded), then is this a valid concern worth protecting in principle?

[Napoleon 1er]

video making, as has been said several time is the best "note taking" during a game that can be done. ISF rules forbid it but on online stratego the principle of making videos has been accepted. the only condition is that for publishing a video you need approval of the opponent. This is the "generally accepted online playing stratego rule". So what is the point to ask about recording? Recording is just the right of player A in a game against player B - final dot.

[TheOptician]

Recording is just the right of player A in a game against player B - final dot.

 

If the tournament rules prohibit it then it is not a right, but a wrong - final dot :-)

[Fks]

.

Edited by Fks, 12 January 2018 - 08:06 PM.

[Napoleon 1er]

If the tournament rules prohibit it then it is not a right, but a wrong - final dot :-)

yes ... but the burden of the proof remains with the plaintiff ... how can player B proof that player A has recorded a game without authorization as required by a tournament rule?

Note that wco rules do not forbid to record ... only forbid to publish without prior approval of the opponent

[KARAISKAKIS]

It can not be proved that someone has recorded a game for his own use but in case he post this video and there is no approvall from his opponent TC will punish this player without  any previous report or claim from the affected player. ( the good part of the rule)

This is what I can understand for the meaning of this rule.

 

IMO anyone has the right to record a game and use it in case it is needed to prove unfair treatment , cheating or abusive behavior.

Of course if you show only the related part there is np with the rule , but what will be happen in case someone want to prove that for technical issues he was kicked off the game? and not abuse the rule? This is the only part which makes me think that rule for record without approval should be removed.

[Losermaker]

I record every game I play and delete most of the ones that went smoothly straight after, there are far too many bugs and glitches on this site to not do it and once you are losing 24 points every game it gets very annoying. Several times the recording has come in handy for me, providing proof which is very hard to provide in screenshots and saving me a lot of points/time. Most of these I could not have gotten any points for if I were not recording at the start of the game, things happen very quick here in regard to getting booted or disconnected. I will continue to record all of my games for this reason.

Edited by Losermaker, 12 January 2018 - 09:03 PM.

[TheOptician]

what will be happen in case someone want to prove that for technical issues he was kicked off the game? and not abuse the rule? This is the only part which makes me think that rule for record without approval should be removed.

 

 

I record every game I play and delete most of the ones that went smoothly straight after, there are far too many bugs and glitches on this site to not do it and once you are losing 24 points every game it gets very annoying. Several times the recording has come in handy for me, providing proof which is very hard to provide in screenshots and saving me a lot of points/time. Most of these I could not have gotten any points for if I were not recording at the start of the game, things happen very quick here in regard to getting booted or disconnected. I will continue to record all of my games for this reason.

 

When put like this I tend to agree with this view. The purpose of the rule is to give players strategic protection (by preventing their opponent from retaining information about their strategy long after a game is finished), but players are more likely to need protection from the site issues, and recording a game is the only guarantee to that protection.

[Napoleon 1er]

Not sure whether you're reffering to our latest game or not, but I don't see any neccesity in having my games featured on YT or similair sites.

yes I would refer to that particular wco game we had ... could you make an exception after you have finished using that kind of setup? .. hope you can think to stratego community instead of thinking to you...

[Nortrom]

Napoleon,

 

The setup I used vs you was more of a generic one, but as already expressed several times before, I have no desire for seeing it featured on YT or any other video hosting platform.

 

As for "hope you can think to stratego community instead of thinking to you..."

 

I have (not to boast or anything):

 

- Been (head) admin at Metaforge for nearly 8 years;

- Been involved in international Stratego affairs for a while;

- Done many preparatory work for several live WC's;

- Managed Dutch Stratego Association website;

- Refereed (note: not playing) several live tournaments and will do so again 14th of april this year;

- Been writing several blogposts;

- Been organizing WCO together with Morx and Karaiskakis, including things such as previews, interviews etc and things you can find here and here;

- Organized several tournaments on Metaforge;

- Done many other things I do not recall right away.

 

As for the game, I'll tell you this, you played a poor game. Not just a poor game, but a very poor game. You made one (imo) very bad decision, that led me to think (you know what I'm reffering to) trying to outsmart you, by thinking I knew the identity of one of your unknown pieces. Resulting in this not working out (duh) and giving(yes, giving, not resulting into) you a big lead, which in the end still wasn't enough to convert into victory due to mistakes I will not point out. I honestly don't see why you wish to see this particular game featured on YT, it doesn't feature anything special in it, no "wow" moves, nothing, except for a special ending of the game which most likely gave you an adrenaline rush convincing you this game is one of the few legendary games (sorry, it isn't). I didn't really want to post this, but since you keep going about this specific game, there you go.