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Recording - To allow or not to allow?


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#1 TheOptician

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:05 AM

Recording

Should TC require opponent permission to record tournament games?

For reference, here is the current rule:

You are only allowed to record a match if you receive permission from your opponent prior to starting the game (with proof of agreement required if necessary). Please respect the decision of your opponent. The only exceptions to consent are that you may film the sequence of moves needed for proof of Double-chasing, Draw-refusal, Prolonged chasing or intentional time-wasting. Publishing a game without consent of the opponent is also not allowed.

#2 Major Nelson

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:11 AM

Are we supposed to vote now? Cause I don't see any poll.


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#3 Fks

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:12 AM

Yes.
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#4 Major Nelson

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:14 AM

Yes.

Is that an answer to Charlie's question or mine? :wacko:


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#5 Fks

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:22 AM

Is that an answer to Charlie's question or mine? :wacko:

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#6 GaryLShelton

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 01:57 AM

It's a somewhat tricky area of privacy.  As a courtesy and general requirement, I feel that permission for recording games should be requested from the opponent if the intent, and the result, of the person video-ing is a public posting of the game for later viewing.  But what if the purpose of making the recording is to demonstrate something in the way of bad sportsmanship and such a video is made public to prove a draw refusal or other abuse?  This is public posting.  Is it the same?  

 

To me, no.  Usually, we won't see a video of the full game and what we the MT and the public can see of the setup of the culprit player is the barest of skeletons in the late mid-game to endgame.  We hardly know original setups at all.  So I feel this kind of recording, whether it's actual video or just screenshots, is a necessary thing.  

 

John Collasky ran afoul in this subject a few years ago.  After a short time he pulled his videos made without permission down off of YouTube, as I recall.


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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#7 astros

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 03:11 AM

What if the TC allows players to freely upload after the tournament. This way games can be shared with a larger audience, but players cannot get an advantage on their upcoming opponents by watching games that were uploaded without permission.


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#8 texaspete09

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 04:21 AM

I say record all you want, just get permission from the player before you post anything on Youtube/share it. If I'm in a draw refusal with an opponent, I have to ask before recording? The rule doesn't really seem enforceable. A more realistic rule is to prohibit the posting of games without permission. As long as the recorder keeps the video to themself, I don't think there is a problem. 


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#9 tobermoryx

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 04:37 AM

The rule is certainly not enforceable ,which makes it ridiculous and pointless .

 

I asked why the rule exists and nobody knew for sure .It seems it was inherited from the first tournament on here , that was organized by different people .

 

I would guess that it came about because the first tournament coincided with Maxroelofs being the first to post videos of his matches here . Some players didn't want their matches to be viewable and a 'permission to record' rule was brought in when all that was required really was 'permission to upload' .

 

Whatever the reason nobody should have the right to prevent their opponent from looking back at their game.


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#10 Wogomite

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 04:39 AM

.
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#11 Wogomite

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 04:40 AM

Tobi and texaspete09 speak for me as well.

#12 TheOptician

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:37 AM

>>>texaspete09 --- If I'm in a draw refusal... I have to ask before recording?

No you don't - I've added the existing rule to the opening post of his thread

#13 TheOptician

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:45 PM

The rule is certainly not enforceable ,which makes it ridiculous and pointless .

Whatever the reason nobody should have the right to prevent their opponent from looking back at their game.


The rule is enforceable in the case where a player publishes a video without any permission. Here the publisher of the video is violating two rules (recording without permission) and (publishing without permission)

You mention the 'right to record', but Stratego was invented long before the Internet. Do you not give any validity to the right to privacy? A player may think 'I don't want to give my opponent a potential advantage over me when we next meet'

I don't have a strong opinion on this subject - the main concern to TC would be that some players did not participate purely due to the absence (or presence) of this rule. We already have one player who is not participating on these grounds, hence why we are giving the floor to everyone to see if any anti-'recording without permissionists' have a contribution to make.



#14 roeczak

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 08:11 PM

I think a good idea is to create for all players who record tournament games
And at the end of the tournament anyone can publish them (but not before the end)

I dont think what we do in ranked games matters to TC.
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#15 Unladen Swallow

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 08:34 PM

No one can prevent anyone from recording or prove someone was recording without permission.

 

Therefore having it against the rules is a bit silly.

 

However, uploading videos without permission in some cases (e.g. when not to demonstrate unsporting behaviour) should be against the rules. 


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#16 OuweSok

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:34 PM

I would be in favor of only disallowing tournament games being published while the other player is still active in that tournament. For the rest, no limits.


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#17 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 11:26 PM

at the end of wco I would very much like to publish my game against nortrom. Nortrom allowed me to record but not to publish. That game is the absolute most unexpected end that one could imagine and would be a real "top seller" game to watch. Legally speaking there is no real issue with privacy in putting on youtube a game with players having both only nick/account names visible and where no private data like real names is published. Stratego set ups are not officially recognized as Intellectual Property so again here there is nothing illegal, only the wco rules do not allow for its publishing. My question is why should the opponent of a player who is recording a video have the prioritary power to decide whether it can be published or not? Why is it not the player who is recording the video who has the power to decide publishing or not? When televisions are recording and publishing a football game, who decides if the game can be published or not ...  those who are recording the game or those who are playing the game? 

I'm asking this for reading others opinions because the more I think about this the more I do not see real reasons for not allowing a player who is recording a video to decide by himself whether to publish it or not. What do others think? ... and by the way anybody who has a good tip to help me convince nortrom to allow publishing of that game is welcome! :)


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#18 TheOptician

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 11:45 PM

 When televisions are recording and publishing a football game, who decides if the game can be published or not ...  those who are recording the game or those who are playing the game? 

 

 

The organisers of a football game (i.e the Premier League body) decides who they wish to license recording rights to. This may be a sponsor who pays money to attain the rights. The rights do not belong to the players - or anyone who wishes to record the game. 



#19 Fks

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 11:52 PM

at the end of wco I would very much like to publish my game against nortrom. ... and by the way anybody who has a good tip to help me convince nortrom to allow publishing of that game is welcome! :)



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#20 Morx

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 11:58 PM

@Napoleon: the WCO recording rules are there to prevent players that spend hours working on a very specific setup/strategy to have their work being made practically worthless after publication.

 

There are some setups that I would never want posted in a public space for the world to analyze and based on that counter me.

 

From a video where you see the setup being used even more value can be gained. Sometimes a setup doesnt make sense till you see the order in which the pieces are played.

 

This is why we ask for consent on publishing. Publishing without consent results in us taking action and a ban. One player already has such a ban from breaking these rules in  a previous WCO.


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