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Gun control in US


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Poll: gun control (private poll) (11 member(s) have cast votes)

Should there be more gun control in the US?

  1. Yes (10 votes [90.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 90.91%

  2. No (1 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  3. I dont know (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Should automatic waepons and "launchers" be forbidden for normal citisens?

  1. Yes, both should be illegal (5 votes [71.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 71.43%

  2. No, only rockets and other very explosive guns should be illegal (2 votes [28.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.57%

  3. No, only automatic waepons should be illegal (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. No, both should be allowed normally (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#41 The Prof

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 05:20 PM

My main concern is not human life but human liberty.  Life is important for sure, but liberty is more important.  

 

Perhaps you need to explain what you mean by this.  The liberty of this mass murderer to accumulate his deadly arsenal was certainly not more important than the lives of the 58 people who perished at his hands.  What about their liberty?


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#42 DarthRemark

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 05:02 AM

By Liberty I mean freedom in its various forms.  A human being has the right to freedom and the framers recognized that if not defended, it would be taken.  The Constitution specifically protects arms-bearing to ensure the people had the ability to do that. 

 

What I’m not talking about is personal satisfaction.  So item #2 isn’t even relevant to the argument.  I only gave it because TheOptician asked for a list of benefits.  
 
Your mass-murderer example is equating illegal actions with legal ones.  It’s an emotional appeal.  I can just as easily rewrite it to say:  The liberty of this drunken driver to drink his booze and own a car was certainly not more important than the lives of the family he killed.  Do you think cars and alcohol are the problem here? 


#43 TheOptician

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 08:53 AM

>Your mass-murderer example is equating illegal actions with legal ones

So if gun ownership was made illegal tomorrow you'd feel differently? Just because something is currently legal doesn't mean it should be. It is currently legal to fit a contraption to a device where the sole purpose is to injure and kill more effectively. It's incredible when you think about it.

Cars kill people too. And that is precisely why there is (and should be) many steps taken to make their existence safer (like extensive training and tests for drivers, seatbelts, regulating brakes and vehicle specifications. In the UK, following certain diagnoses your doctor must approve the retention of your driving license). The government can and does make driving safer (but go near the topic of making guns safe and suddenly it's a violation of Liberty!)

The purpose of a car is to get you from A to B. The purpose of a gun is to kill. Comparing these two together is ridiculous - it's like when the NRA says (people drown in swimming pools - and we're not banning them). Look at the intention.

The most ludicrous thing about the situation is that there is a solution, yet the normalisation of the prevalence of guns is so concrete that we have intelligent people blinded by the reality. Thousands (of preventable deaths!) are directly caused by the misguided notion that carrying a gun symbolises American freedom. Oh - and then there's the matter of NRA revenues which is of course the real obstacle to progress.
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#44 Lonello

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 11:40 AM

The purpose of a car is to get you from A to B. The purpose of a gun is to kill.

Theo is very right here ofcourse, and with the efforts to counter the death toll with cars. That's actually an old discussion... it's sooooo 2016. Queenbee already showed this in her topic of the driverless car. The car of the future won't kill anymore so that's that.

 

Where's the effort to counter the death toll with guns though?

 

Star Trek already showed us in the '60's we'd be getting 3D printers. Today, you can buy one for 2000 dollars and print your own working gun with some plastics and steal. So the limitations we're discussing here are outdated. We're talking 1789 Constitution lines, invented to counter the militia's of the 18th century! We should start looking ahead now and watch for the proceedings of the 21st century.

 

It's not that we didn't have warning signals. We got this warning even before Star Trek:

 

5c3091948aa4dae161dbaea1eeb399d8--albert


Lo

#45 DarthRemark

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 12:10 PM

So if gun ownership was made illegal tomorrow you'd feel differently?

I would feel the law was wrong, but the example logically consistent. 

 

I support reasonable laws and we have many already.  But what you want is a total ban and that isn’t an option for the reasons already addressed. 

 

the misguided notion that carrying a gun symbolises American freedom.

What’s misguided is your notion that it’s symbolic. 

 

then there's the matter of NRA revenues which is of course the real obstacle to progress.

Nice demonization of the NRA.  It actually spends enormous resources on gun safety training.  But its lobbying efforts exist because of people like you who would strip weapons from free people in the name of “safety”. 

 

We're talking 1789 Constitution lines, invented to counter the militia's of the 18th century!

You miss the point entirely, Lo.  The protection is there to ensure the ability to counter, by deadly force, those who would take freedom. 



#46 TheOptician

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 03:30 PM

>of people like you who would strip weapons from free people in the name of “safety”.

Everything else aside, I think this is the crux of our differences. Safety is a founding point for freedom. If my neighbours are free to carry guns then my freedom is compromised.

Or as it is commonly known - the poison jam paradox.

#47 Lonello

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 03:50 PM

Here in my country we have the answer to the NRA. "Guns don't kill people - ignorance kills people". That is the crux. Believe me. No paradox here. True story: https://www.youtube....h?v=Gf82Q9XkJUA


Lo

#48 queenbee1

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Posted 09 October 2017 - 10:13 PM

I own a gun in case someone forgot. I will not debate something that will never be the "right time" in the US. 



#49 Lonello

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:43 AM

OK that makes sense as with Gary having none, you should have one to meet America's 1:1 statistic :rolleyes: :lol:

 

But what did you find of

The video went viral again, 2 million views this time and no. 1 at YouTube that time. The same makers as the "America first" video that got 70 million views earlier this year :D B)


Lo

#50 DarthRemark

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:50 AM

If my neighbours are free to carry guns then my freedom is compromised.

Only if they are threatening you.   

 

 

Here in my country we have the answer to the NRA. "Guns don't kill people - ignorance kills people". That is the crux. Believe me. No paradox here. True story: https://www.youtube....h?v=Gf82Q9XkJUA

Lo, I'm a fan of dark humor so got a chuckle out of this.  It insulted me at the same time.  You can lampoon anything at all.  Honestly dialoging is hard.



#51 Don_Homer

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:20 PM

Only if they are threatening you.   

.

Also when you feel threatened! And when you have an argument with them and they are more than average impulsive people it is not so strange to feel threatened. 


Molto Bene, Thats a nica Donut !


#52 Lonello

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:52 PM

Lo, I'm a fan of dark humor so got a chuckle out of this.  It insulted me at the same time.  You can lampoon anything at all.

 

It's great you can laugh about it. Lubach is preaching for his own choir but ofcourse it's extra fun if another choir can chuckle about his vid's too :D :lol:!

Did you see my joke in Theo's cafe? http://forum.strateg...e-4#entry439679 The other video I referred to with Queenbee is in there too via a link. It shows American kids watching the vid and there are also a couple of Republican kids in there. Probably the ginger boy is Fairway. They laughed about the video too although 'Lubachs choir' had some harder laughs :rolleyes: :P!


Lo

#53 DarthRemark

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:44 AM

Also when you feel threatened! And when you have an argument with them and they are more than average impulsive people it is not so strange to feel threatened. 

Only you control how you feel, Don.  If this is your rationale for imposing your will you can justify literally anything. 



#54 DarthRemark

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:45 AM

It's great you can laugh about it. Lubach is preaching for his own choir but ofcourse it's extra fun if another choir can chuckle about his vid's too :D :lol:!

Did you see my joke in Theo's cafe? http://forum.strateg...e-4#entry439679 The other video I referred to with Queenbee is in there too via a link. It shows American kids watching the vid and there are also a couple of Republican kids in there. Probably the ginger boy is Fairway. They laughed about the video too although 'Lubachs choir' had some harder laughs :rolleyes: :P!

Ok, this was funny too.


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#55 GaryLShelton

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 02:26 PM

>of people like you who would strip weapons from free people in the name of “safety”.


Everything else aside, I think this is the crux of our differences. Safety is a founding point for freedom. If my neighbours are free to carry guns then my freedom is compromised.
Or as it is commonly known - the poison jam paradox.




I think to say "Safety is a founding point for freedom." is part of the guns/no guns discussion problem as well. You can't "found" freedom upon safety. No safe people won their freedom through being safe. Freedom is won through an attitude backed by weapons, and mostly firearms. To then denigrate the means of the freedom they hold would be both ungrateful and delusional for that people. As Thomas Jefferson famously stated, "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."

All this said, I'm personally for the gun laws that we have in the US. There needs to be some regulation of things to attempt to insure mentally ill persons don't have access to purchasing guns. To me it's your belief that the good people with guns threaten your freedom that is the key to our difference on this issue, TheO. I think in a world without guns that if the bad guys know they are not going to be opposed with guns, they will become all the more dangerous to the community. But if that deviant tries to go through some backwoods town in the USA and commit mass murder, he will soon find opposition still to this day.
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#56 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 03:56 PM

I think this whole topic is very sensitive. I think only in USA people want to have the right to kill whoever would come into their house to rob or rape or kill them and make their own justice. Otherwise what is the reason to have a loaded gun at home if it is not to have the right to kill ? In my country guns are allowed but not ammunition, those who have shooting as hobby can exercise it in some dedicated places where ammunition can be bought and fired, but each bullet is under control. So you have the right to have fun but not the right to kill. I think this is the main difference between american culture and European culture. It's originating from far west period where far located farmers could not count on justice to arrive on time in case they were attacked, so they had to be able to defend themselves on their own and they had their weapons at home. In Europe you didn't have "far located" farms. People were all living close together in villages so police or neighbours were very quick to help in case one would be attacked.  It remains in our culture to "don't make justice by yourself but let public justice make its job and judge criminals". History is the source of cultural differences. If I would be american I guess I would also be in favor of right to have loaded weapons at home.


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#57 Major Nelson

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 04:23 PM

I think that Napoleon1er has put it in the right way. In USA, it has always been about what you can achieve by yourself; personal initiative has always been rendered highly. This concerns security, too. This culture survives today, which is why it is generally considered right to have your own gun, protect your own property. In Europe the situation is very different, the belief that the state should take care of its people is far more prevailing. This, as far as security is concerned, means that the police interferes more here.


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#58 GaryLShelton

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 01:07 PM

I think you make a solid observation, Napoleon 1er. There may be more rugged individualism in the USA and more liberty stored in the hearts of Americans. Maybe, anyway. But all American values were once European ones for that's where Americans came from.* I would only disagree that help is any farther away in the US than in Europe for the individual. Mainland USA and Europe are comparably sized, aren't they?

Also, wouldn't European culture have been different in the past compared to today? Weren't people allowed to hunt with their own guns and bullets in previous times? A hundred years ago there wasn't a fast food chain on every corner. People would have necessarily been far more involved with coming up with their daily meals. I don't see how this aspect of living could have been much different for Europe versus here in the states.

A hundred years ago 90% of Americans owned their own business, their family farm, and were much closer to the land and the life and death involved in human living. Today that has changed dramatically, of course. My grandmother axed the heads off chickens at her house periodically for a meal. I've never even touched a live chicken. My grandfather (born in 1895) would have gone out hunting regularly. Indeed, I only knew him with one glass eye because when he was a youth his brother shot him accidentally with a shotgun and took out one of his eyes.


* Yes, I know there were others here already when the first white man arrived, and still others came here from Africa. But generally our culture can said to have been a spin off from the European one. Our love of freedom was surely born with the Magna Carta and Joan of Arc and others.

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#59 tobermoryx

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 10:27 PM

 There may be more rugged individualism in the USA and more liberty stored in the hearts of Americans. Maybe, anyway. But all American values were once European ones for that's where Americans came from.* I would only disagree that help is any farther away in the US than in Europe for the individual. Mainland USA and Europe are comparably sized, aren't they?

Also, wouldn't European culture have been different in the past compared to today? Weren't people allowed to hunt with their own guns and bullets in previous times? A hundred years ago there wasn't a fast food chain on every corner. People would have necessarily been far more involved with coming up with their daily meals. I don't see how this aspect of living could have been much different for Europe versus here in the states.

 

 

No , America was very different from the places the colonists came from because of the frontier  , which didn't exist in England ,Germany etc where there were more or less stable borders and what was beyond those borders was known .

 

When the colonists went west beyond the frontier between (roughly) 1607-1880 they were stepping into lands which had no government or laws at all  ,and so they had to be totally self reliant .

 

The United States was essentially created by its own people with minimal involvement of federal government. That individuals and small groups made such a success of it without government assistance leads the majority to be dubious about ceding any rights at all to government.

 

Meanwhile in Europe ,  the state was powerful within it's borders and seen as oppressive , but in mid 20th century most Euro nations were at some point taken over by socialist parties who introduced the idea of the benevolent state , that is both responsible for , and the solution to , all problems  . Even supposedly right wing parties in Europe largely accept this . So the state is only ever criticized for not doing enough . Socilaism was never possible in America due to the culture of individualism.

 

It's a completely different culture.


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#60 GaryLShelton

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 07:35 AM

 
It's a completely different culture.



I don't disagree with most of that, tobermoryx. America was unsettled and there was a huge expansion westward into unknown lands. That's true. And we all spoke English, unlike our European brothers, so that helped unify us in the face of all the liberty mindset.

But I think my point which got drowned is that the very idea of liberty was clearly born in Europe. The chief document of the middle ages, the Magna Carta, was born of that desire. The idea of liberty in America came from Europe.

Also, whether Europe was more settled or not, life 100-200 years ago I daresay would have looked, to a modern kid of today, fairly similar all over the world. No computers or air conditioning existed and heads of chickens were cut off everywhere by mothers cooking meals.

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