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Disconnecter Punishment Plan Questions


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Poll: Disconnecter Punishment Plan Questions (45 member(s) have cast votes)

If we proceed with a trial of the system described below, the penalty for disconnecting should be

  1. A rating deduction (12 votes [26.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.67%

  2. A temporary ban (17 votes [37.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.78%

  3. Neither. There shouldn't be a penalty. (16 votes [35.56%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.56%

If the per-incident penalty is a rating deduction, it should be

  1. 25 points (33 votes [73.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 73.33%

  2. 50 points (4 votes [8.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.89%

  3. 75 points (1 votes [2.22%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.22%

  4. 100 points (7 votes [15.56%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 15.56%

If the per-incident penalty is a temporary ban, it should be

  1. One day (26 votes [57.78%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 57.78%

  2. One week (14 votes [31.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 31.11%

  3. Two weeks (1 votes [2.22%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.22%

  4. One month (4 votes [8.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.89%

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#21 GaryLShelton

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 06:02 AM

5 .Disconnecting instead of surrendering - This is 2 and half minutes, which is not so long to wait and watch (though yes shouldn't have to wait at all) . I think these people are punished enough by the thread where their disconnections (as well as elements of their strategy/set up) are posted for all to see. I think the disconnectors are mostly angry with themselves mainly so it is not calculated like the other 4 things in the list .

The reason i voted for a week ban (if there must be a ban) rather than a day , is that , when i look in the recently met section , the players who disconnected on me often haven't played a game since 2 or 3 days later , so if they got a day ban they would just come back 3 days later unaware they'd been banned at all. (they might get an email i suppose , but i don't think a valid email is even necessary to have an account)

...while it is so easy to set up another account , is there any point in banning anyone for anything ?

Despite this critical sounding post i'd like to say the people who give up their time to deal with these issues - which is appreciated - should of course go forward and prioritize whatever they see fit (having taken on board other suggestions as they doubtless do ) so good luck with their project. .


Tobermoryx, some good points. We all probably have our ranking of the frustrating issues on the site, but your is a well-thought-out one. I particularly like your point about the questionableness of banning for shorter times, or in the world of aliases.

I would disagree with the low position of the disconnecting issue perhaps, but the others are common also. A point I would make is just because someone may not premeditate an action they take, that doesn't mean we should continue to look the other way. Bad behavior should not be allowed either way, in my opinion. Whether it is intentional or not, or mean-spirited or not, we shouldn't stand idly by because there was no premeditation. It's still bad behavior, right?

To restate what I wrote above, a chunk of the cases I personally have are definitely premeditated and the worst form of cheap cheating. So it's hard to even say that there is no mean-spiritedness involved.

Also, I would point out that the deterrent factor you state of having one's setup on the screen doesn't count for anything with many players on the site because only a small percentage are forum members
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#22 scottrussia

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Posted 08 June 2015 - 08:01 AM

A couple of comments.

 

1. The real solution is to change the clock settings.  Making the game load faster would allow the disconnect clock to be reduced to 1 minute.  And as a few others mentioned the other ways of wasting opponents time (15 seconds per move and running the buffer down to zero) are also addressed by changing those clock settings.

 

2.  We no longer report abusive behavior as we can't post the saved screenshots in the forum.  So we wouldn't bother doing any reporting of disconnects.

 

3. If your going to do something it has to be automated - and it should be cumulative.  We play through when the site has issues (and yes those days we can lose hundreds of points) - there have been many days when we are disconnected during the game time after time after time (of course we are both winning some and losing some).  So perhaps the data that needs to be collected is the number of times the surrender button is hit/flag captured as a percentage of your losses.  Then it could flag to the MT accounts with high percentage of disconnects and they could take action.

 

3a.  If you can get more advanced then flagging disconnects with under 30 seconds on the buffer would highlight the even worse offenders that run the buffer down and then disconnect.  Though I suspect that these individuals would quickly learn and then run it down to something above the threshold and then disconnect or surrender.

 

4. Unfortunately, no matter how much time the MT spends on this I believe time wasting will just continue as long as the clock settings remain as is.

 

5. In terms of potential penalties - once your account has been flagged (in my example in #3), then I'd vote that each additional disconnect is a one day freeze on your account.


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#23 GaryLShelton

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 02:32 PM

Scott,

On 1, clearly if we change the reconnect time to a smaller time this would directly reduce the current problem of disconnecters. But, of course, there are realities involved. The system is what it is and some have defended the 2:30 time as needful.

On 2, this is unfortunate but it would appear to be a problem of your and not a widespread one, as many screens are posted here daily.

On 3, we all would agree with an automated answer to this issue. Under automation many statistics could be maintained to help accurately punish the worst offenders. This would plainly be the best thing. But we are dealing with realities again. There is no automated answer on the horizon. We are seeking what we can do here and now. And we can actually do the above plan without programming changes, though a trial will prove whether we have bitten off more than we can chew.

On 3a, I like this idea. If I understand you rightly, we would punish a disconnecter worse if he disconnected with 30 seconds or less remaining on the clock.

On 4, I think we could change things. But not with the puny penalty you espouse in 5. If we want to eliminate this disconnecting behavior, we should hammer hard. What's a one day ban to someone who only plays once a week? It needs to be more time. Then, also it could be points. At least with a points punishment you could see a cumulative effect, as you mentioned. If the punishment's the same each time, and it's X number of points, there's going to be an ELO lowering each time that adds to the previous one. We should, in fact, add to the rule that X number of disconnects will result in a permanent ban, though the lookback/sunset period would have to be short for simplicity, a month at most.

On 5, my feeling is that everyone goes through a lot of work to bring a case to us, and then we do more work as well to look at them, and then also the admins do work to apply the penalties. We the MT have only so much help from the admins on everything that I'd hate to see us use it up over applying such puny penalties as a one day ban or even twenty-five points.
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#24 scottrussia

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 09:27 PM

3a - yes you understand my statement correctly.  These people are basically wasting 7:30 of my life as opposed to those wasting 2:30. 

 

4 - the disconnect is just one of three ways people waste time out of spite when they are losing - 15 seconds a move, 5:00 buffer and disconnect - the best way to remove time wasting is to remove the ability to do it!  So the clock settings are the best way to reduce time wasting. 

 

In regards to penalties, I don't follow how you can determine manually who has disconnected out of spite and who has been disconnected by the site or the internet.

 

I can post a screenshot showing a disconnect and say player Gary disconnected after losing a piece - but how do you know that's true?  Likewise if I get disconnected by the site you could post a screenshot and say Scottrussia disconnected because he was losing - but how do you know?

 

Unless you have some sort of automated statistics by account, I think you'll find this becomes a huge waste of time for whoever is trying to judge these things.  That's why I'd forget about points and just lock people out for a day for each disconnect once you've flagged them as being a disconnecting player.

 

But at the end of the day its not my time and I'm not the one doing it, so those that are should feel free to give it a try however they decide.


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#25 Chewtoy

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Posted 12 June 2015 - 10:01 PM

First offense - Watching hours of Stratego videos comprised of nothing but lotto noobs.

Second offense - may only play if they Marshal blitz every game

Third offense - lifetime ban and burnt offerings of prized possessions
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#26 GaryLShelton

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 07:14 AM

Scott, in response to your question

"I can post a screenshot showing a disconnect and say player Gary disconnected after losing a piece - but how do you know that's true?"

the way we would determine guilt or innocence, and reasonably know it was true, can be found in my post to Nortrom on the previous page. Here:

http://forum.strateg...ons/#entry37994
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#27 josephwhite

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 05:18 PM

If it were automated, I would propose a point deduction, but as it seems that it would have to be done manually, I think it should be a suspension of one week.

 

My experience is that less than 1 in 10 people are disconnectors. However, some are active players, like Thesoma and XI. I think that banning will be particularly effective for some of these active players.



#28 ITSA Trap

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 11:34 AM

Would it be possible to reward the winner instead of punishing the loser? For example, if you win because of disconnect you get an extra two  points. This would eliminate the need for posting and not add to the burden on the MT. I know I have disconnected at times for various reasons, usually kids or wife..haha and it does not bother me when someone else does it. So I have to wait a couple of minutes, I already spent quite a bit of time in the game anyway. Just a thought.


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#29 TerrorisT

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 01:47 PM

Would it be possible to reward the winner instead of punishing the loser? For example, if you win because of disconnect you get an extra two  points. This would eliminate the need for posting and not add to the burden on the MT. I know I have disconnected at times for various reasons, usually kids or wife..haha and it does not bother me when someone else does it. So I have to wait a couple of minutes, I already spent quite a bit of time in the game anyway. Just a thought.

 

Very smart idea!



#30 sevenseas

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 04:10 PM

Would it be possible to reward the winner instead of punishing the loser? For example, if you win because of disconnect you get an extra two  points. This would eliminate the need for posting and not add to the burden on the MT. I know I have disconnected at times for various reasons, usually kids or wife..haha and it does not bother me when someone else does it. So I have to wait a couple of minutes, I already spent quite a bit of time in the game anyway. Just a thought.

 

 

I like this idea! :)


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#31 The Prof

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 10:09 PM

I don't like this idea.  ELO rating is supposed to measure one's skill level.  What does whether or not my opponent disconnected have to do with how good I am at Stratego?  Nothing.  Giving free points like this will simply skew the rating system in favor of those who play more games.  It also would not do anything to discourage players from disconnecting instead of surrendering.


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#32 sevenseas

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 10:24 PM

I don't like this idea.  ELO rating is supposed to measure one's skill level.  What does whether or not my opponent disconnected have to do with how good I am at Stratego?  Nothing.  Giving free points like this will simply skew the rating system in favor of those who play more games.  It also would not do anything to discourage players from disconnecting instead of surrendering.

Right, but does subtracting 50 points for draw refusal cases mean the affected player is worse at stratego? No. The point of it is to show a way to compensate for the bad sports, by either increasing your own rewards (e.g. point increases), or decreasing theirs (e.g. timebans, point reductions).

 

2 points per disconnect isn't a lot. For me, someone disconnects once every 8-10 games in most cases. It's not that common.


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#33 The Prof

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 10:52 PM

Right, but does subtracting 50 points for draw refusal cases mean the affected player is worse at stratego? No. The point of it is to show a way to compensate for the bad sports, by either increasing your own rewards (e.g. point increases), or decreasing theirs (e.g. timebans, point reductions).

 

2 points per disconnect isn't a lot. For me, someone disconnects once every 8-10 games in most cases. It's not that common.

 

Good point, this is a negative aspect of penalizing players with an ELO deduction.  However, draw refusals are much less common events than losses by disconnect, and so the skewing of the rankings is likely negligible.  Also, I am more comfortable with the idea of skewing of the rankings by deducting points than giving players free points that they didn't earn. 



#34 Midnightguy

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 11:04 PM

While the idea of rewarding someone for not quitting seems great, but the idea is stopping or curbing the number of players who quit.   If we only rewarded the winner, then it wouldn't do anything else to stop the disconnectors.  Also what would stop players from abusing this?  Two friends facing one another, the one knows game will be over then leaves so his buddy can get another 2 points?  So I'm against that idea and also not to mention the amount of work it would take unless if programmed in by the programmers it would take for us to file reports and the site admin to manually enter 2 points for every disconnect for the winner.  The trail we are examining would only be limited on certain cases where someone quit and not all quits.  


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#35 sevenseas

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 11:09 PM

While the idea of rewarding someone for not quitting seems great, but the idea is stopping or curbing the number of players who quit.   If we only rewarded the winner, then it wouldn't do anything else to stop the disconnectors.  Also what would stop players from abusing this?  Two friends facing one another, the one knows game will be over then leaves so his buddy can get another 2 points?  So I'm against that idea and also not to mention the amount of work it would take unless if programmed in by the programmers it would take for us to file reports and the site admin to manually enter 2 points for every disconnect for the winner.  The trail we are examining would only be limited on certain cases where someone quit and not all quits.  

You make a good point with the "Friends wanting to give 2 points" thing. I think, after rethinking it's probably best to be punishing the disconnecter rather than rewarding the one who stays, even though both have their advantages.


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#36 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 02:28 AM

Would it be possible to reward the winner instead of punishing the loser? For example, if you win because of disconnect you get an extra two  points. This would eliminate the need for posting and not add to the burden on the MT. I know I have disconnected at times for various reasons, usually kids or wife..haha and it does not bother me when someone else does it. So I have to wait a couple of minutes, I already spent quite a bit of time in the game anyway. Just a thought.

 

Sometimes simple solutions like the above are the best solutions. I remember 2 years ago with the tie request cheaters that a simple change in program (not allowing to make a request during your opponent's move) solved permanently that huge problem .

 Increasing the rewarded points from e.g. 12 to 13 or 14 is a simple solution because at the same time this opponent who will disconnect instead surrender will be punished with the deduction of 1-2 points more than the losing points in the case he simply press the quit button. Of course there is need to make a change in software (system must count the points according the end of a game) but maybe this change is not very costly to be applied.



#37 Mr. Smith

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 06:34 AM

Would it be possible to reward the winner instead of punishing the loser? For example, if you win because of disconnect you get an extra two  points. This would eliminate the need for posting and not add to the burden on the MT. I know I have disconnected at times for various reasons, usually kids or wife..haha and it does not bother me when someone else does it. So I have to wait a couple of minutes, I already spent quite a bit of time in the game anyway. Just a thought.

 

And this from a player who disconnected after nearly every loss. 

I'm sure that's not because of your wife or kids after losing your high pieces. 

 

Why is it so hard to click the surrender button?


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#38 ITSA Trap

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:33 AM

And this from a player who disconnected after nearly every loss. 

I'm sure that's not because of your wife or kids after losing your high pieces. 

 

Why is it so hard to click the surrender button?

Admittedly when I first started playing I would just click close, not really knowing what that did inside the game. Since I have been reading the boards and learning more about the game I have not been doing that. However, that does not detract from the idea that I had (that a lot of people seem to like). It is a small mind indeed that attacks the speaker and not the idea. I am sorry that I did not live up to your standards.



#39 Chewtoy

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 02:36 PM

Admittedly when I first started playing I would just click close, not really knowing what that did inside the game. Since I have been reading the boards and learning more about the game I have not been doing that. However, that does not detract from the idea that I had (that a lot of people seem to like). It is a small mind indeed that attacks the speaker and not the idea. I am sorry that I did not live up to your standards.

Well, considering that disconnecting during the moment of truth (i.e., the moment you realize you lost) is probably the most disrespectful thing you can do to your opponent, yeah, I guess you didn't do anything wrong. 

 

As far the as the wife goes, I just tell her that if she bothers me too much during Stratego I will start playing on one of her accounts again. This usually works. 


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#40 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:27 AM

...for the wife a good tip is to show her how to play "hearts" online ... she will soon be more addicted to it than you to stratego ... only need to buy a 2nd computer and you will suddenly get peace when playing stratego
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