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#1 maxroelofs

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 01:15 PM

Hello,

 

In this topic i will discuss all the pro's and con's about the new stratego single player. I bought it yesterday and i played through the whole game. 

 

Overall i have to see i am a bit disappointed. The programmers literally said ''We've made sure every player on out team is an excellent stratego player by now'', but i highly doubt that. This is because the All is very weak, i think it is even weaker than the one on stratego.com (the multiplayer version). This All at least keeps his information secret. I just played a full game versus the new All and he started with General Marshal Kolonel up front. His play is poor since his pieces are very easy to read. I would say his ELO score would be around 200 points. 

 

A good point of the game are the graphics. I really like the new pieces and i would love to use them on the stratego multiplayer too. They look powerfull and they are just fun to play with. :) 

 

Also i like the map modifications you can choose, when you want to play an opponent. In the standard version it is just 2 lakes, but now you can choose between almost 10 different shapes!

 

Another thing i am not so happy about though, is the campaign. It is definitelly made for kids and is not very fun to play for people like us. The campaign is also very short, i think there are 10 missions, i completed the whole campaign in 20 minutes i think. Also there is a mission were my opponent has 3 kolonels. I feel like that's a bit unfair.. He is still not a strong opponent, but an extra kolonel shouldn't be the way to make it harder to beat him.

 

Also there is a 4s rule programmed, not a 3s rule! This changes the game dramatically unfortunately.  

 

So right now i am down 2 euro's and i think i played like 1 hour in total, i don't see any reason to play more, because i completed the campaign and the All is just too weak. I really hope the updates that are comming will make anything good out of it. I also hope the new introduced pieces will be in the multiplayer game too.

 

A nice app for kids, but it is not stratego unfortunately.

 

Greetings,

Max


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#2 MickM

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 01:32 PM

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed review, Max!

 

Updates are definetly coming in the future.

We did say that everyone on our team has mastered the game, but that says nothing over our focus. Our main focus was to bring Stratego to a larger audience, so eventually, catering to a newbie and a pro at the same time is impossible.

We do hope to add more to keep the game fresh and exciting for everyone!


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#3 maxroelofs

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 02:36 PM

We designed it so it can be tuned to casual and hardcore players.

 

Here you say quite the opposit, what is the real plan?


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#4 MickM

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 02:55 PM

With future updates, we hope to expand on this and add more features that will cater to more players.


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#5 papillon

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 08:10 PM

Thanks for all the hard work and the updates. I hope everyone is having fun with the project.

 

Is the current AI tuned to "easy"? It says on the info page that there is an easy, normal, and hard mode with an "expert" in the works but I couldn't find any difficulty settings. Asking specifically, are these other difficulty modes definitely coming, soon-ish? My daughter likes the app and it's very crisp and responsive but the current AI is..well, it's not competitive, certainly for us forum regulars.



#6 papillon

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 08:38 PM

A good point of the game are the graphics. :)

 

Also there is a mission were my opponent has 3 kolonels. I feel like that's a bit unfair.. He is still not a strong opponent, but an extra kolonel shouldn't be the way to make it harder to beat him.

 

Also there is a 4s rule programmed, not a 3s rule! This changes the game dramatically unfortunately.  

The graphics and animations are smooth and quick, quite nifty…real good feel and my kid got a real kick out of them. She had a little confusion initially with "You won" after the first piece capture, and then when winning a quick game where it reads "you have captured the flag" when instead she took all the pieces.

 

In that mission I think both sides had three cols, and maybe 2 majors if I'm not mistaken? That was quite odd indeed! Lacking the graveyard in the campaign means really flying blind, but i think it was similar with the older app. Other than one mission where the AI has a marshal and you have a col and spy instead, it was probably mostly equal on both sides for the rest. In any case campaign seems more of a tutorial.

 

The AI also has a chase issue. Squares, chase, these could make for a good tutorial as well if it could get programmed in somehow (idea alert…), my daughter was certainly confused for a bit then just moved on.



#7 MickM

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 09:03 AM

Thank you for your kind words papillon! 
Awesome feedback :)


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#8 Kernel Mustard

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 02:51 AM

Just out of curiosity, was there any work done on the actual single player AI skill level in the creation of this app, or was all of the work spent on the UI, gaphics, and such.

 

Sounds like the graphics are looking pretty good, but the AI hasn't really improved that much. I personally haven't tried it out though.

 

I know this idea got shot down a while ago, but I think it would be fun to see what the AI's actual ELO ranking is somehow in an experiment  :)


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#9 GaryLShelton

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 11:53 PM

....

I know this idea got shot down a while ago, but I think it would be fun to see what the AI's actual ELO ranking is somehow in an experiment  :)


This would be fun to know. One of these days that might be of interest. For now the single player AI is not that good. Something around 150 now would be my guess. I think Max pegged it at 200 above which I think is generous. But some of the issues like two squares programming have to be fixed before anyone can really say.
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#10 The Prof

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 04:03 AM

150 or 200?  What a disappointment!  This doesn't not match with any of Mick's previous statements about the quality of the AI.

 

Mick said "Our goal is to make a great AI that is fun to play against for everyone, ranging from a beginner to an expert."  He said about Vincent De Boer's thesis "We used that as a basis to start with. That AI was designed to beat the strongest player. We designed it so it can be tuned to casual and hardcore players."  He also said "and because we have 3 different difficulties, the player can decide how skilled the AI is. Smart people CAN still lose if they want a challenge!"

 

Mick, a 200 ELO bot is not fun for experts, nor it does it offer them any type of challenge, and I doubt that it implements most of the elements of Mr. De Boer's excellent work.  Please be honest with us.  Are these higher difficulty AI levels still to come, or is this all we should expect?  I think you owe us an explanation.

 

It also does not inspire confidence that you said about whether the AI would understand chasing  "In our MANY tests, we haven't encountered the chase-problem.  Our developers haven't missed anything."  Yet the AI doesn't even have the 2-squares rule programmed correctly! 

 

 You have people here in the community that are willing to help, and willing to consult with your programmers.  We offered such help, but you said "Do not worry Gary! We've ensured that everyone on the Stratego-team is now an excellent Stratego-player and knows the game inside out."  These statements are now quite hard to believe.  Mick, it's time I think to admit that your team could do better by having more collaboration with the players on this site, especially those who take the time to make constructive suggestions in the forum.  We, the community of hardcore players, are the real experts.  I hope you will reach out to us as we seek a better Stratego experience, in both single and multi-player.

 

Sincerely,

 

The Prof


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#11 Kernel Mustard

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 04:46 PM

.  I hope you will reach out to us as we seek a better Stratego experience, in both single and multi-player.

 

Sincerely,

 

The Prof

By the complexity of your posts, I would have thought you already are one of the programmers here.


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#12 GaryLShelton

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 07:29 PM

By the complexity of your posts, I would have thought you already are one of the programmers here.


Good nomination! I second!
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#13 GaryLShelton

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 02:29 PM

Actually, David is not a programmer at all. I know that. But, of course, it would really be great if someone as knowledgeable as him were on the inside as a consultant. It's clear from the new single player that they need a stratego expert on staff.
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#14 MickM

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 09:09 AM

Great to hear all of your feedback :)


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#15 maxroelofs

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 01:26 PM

 

150 or 200?  What a disappointment!  This doesn't not match with any of Mick's previous statements about the quality of the AI.

 

Are these higher difficulty AI levels still to come, or is this all we should expect?  I think you owe us an explanation.

 

It also does not inspire confidence that you said about whether the AI would understand chasing  "In our MANY tests, we haven't encountered the chase-problem.  Our developers haven't missed anything."  Yet the AI doesn't even have the 2-squares rule programmed correctly! 

 

 I hope you will reach out to us as we seek a better Stratego experience, in both single and multi-player.

 

Sincerely,

 

The Prof

 

 

Great to hear all of your feedback :)

 

 

Well.. I can imagine this wasn't exactly what he was hoping for.. lol I agree with Prof's statements though, don't really know what Kernel and mustard mean? It's not so complex is it?


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#16 Kernel Mustard

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 08:54 PM

 

 

Well.. I can imagine this wasn't exactly what he was hoping for.. lol I agree with Prof's statements though, don't really know what Kernel and mustard mean? It's not so complex is it?

 

Oh, I just meant the complexity of his posts overall on stratego.com. He writes some deep stuff about the 2SR, and the ELO rating system, as well as the Krach rating system from Meta. 


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#17 Lonello

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 10:25 AM

Great to hear all of your feedback :)

 

OK but what about the questions? Are these higher difficulty AI levels still to come, or is this all we should expect?

 

And will the team make the squares rules programmed correctly in both single and multi-player?


Lo

#18 GaryLShelton

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 09:01 PM

.....

I agree with Prof's statements though, don't really know what Kernel and mustard mean?


I know this wasn't what Max was asking about, but hey KM, isn't your name a play on the famous Clue game character? That would be a good addition to Sgt.Blkdog's How did You Choose your Name thread if you haven't already. :)
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#19 Mitthunder

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 05:53 PM

I agree the AI of the single player version is terrible, he uses multiple scouts and other pieces on the same stronger unit. It doesn't remember anything, it plays like a mindless zombie.



#20 Chewtoy

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 09:18 PM

After seeing the "new" Singleplayer, I sincerely hope they leave the Multiplayer alone. I'd rather have it preserved as it is than have to deal with annoying changes that aren't substantive and only detract from the real game. I suspect this won't be the case, though.


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