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Report Draw Refusals Here (2015):


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#121 spyros77

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 10:07 PM

Spyros77, this case received a lot of debate within the MT so the response was not really that fast this time, but thank you. The result was indeed a split decision without a majority to punish Zannis.

Why do we award 13 points to you if we do not punish your opponent? This has been a long-standing policy within the MT as a one-time deal to recognize the fact we appreciate a draw situation in your game, and also the amount of work and time spent to present us the screenshots, but unfortunately to let you know we don't find enough evidence to convict your opponent, which is always a wholly different issue. A few deficiencies of evidence that could have helped you would have been:

1) to have had the third screenshot you stated you took but which was not found in the 13 you presented.

2) to have had the defeat details screen so we could know how long your game went on. Was it a 30-minute game, a 60-minute game, or a 90-minute one?

3) to have had any chat remarks by Zannis to show his intent to delay and not tie.

4) to have had ten minutes between the tie refusals you showed, instead of just two (9:22 and 9:24).

5) to have some final evidence near the time you quit the game to show your opponent's intention not to tie. This would either be an actual tie refusal or chat remarks at that time.

Besides this--and I say this just as a request to improve them next time--if possible, was the fact your screens were difficult to read. They were fuzzy. It didn't affect our decision, whatsoever, because we were able to read them, but it was more challenging than normal.

If you have other evidence to satisfy any of the above to help show Zannis was intending not to tie, then let us know quickly and we'll look it over.

Gary

Thanks for your thoroughly explanation but unfortunately i do not have other screenshots. Next time I will be more careful with  the screenshots.

 

Sometimes though you don't need all the details you mentioned since:

1. A player that keeps his pieces on the same position for 25 minutes means he is a loser. Simple and clear

2. Me just moving the piece around the lake

3. History of players

 

At least send a warning message to this loser or even ask his opinion. 


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#122 Desert Oasis

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 01:23 AM

Thank-you for the update. I understand you have set processes. Looking at others who have photographed their screens to submit to you, they seem to be operating on a computer. I have paid for Stratego on my better half's Ipad. I mentioned previously I'm not very tech savvy. My enquiries thus far have shed no light onto how to take a time stamped image on the ipad. As far as I can see in order to see the time I have to come out of Stratego. If I then take an image it doesn't show the time and the game together and would prove nothing. 
 
Gary - I understand your need for greater proof but how do I provide this on the ipad ? Can you shed some light ?


I use an ipad to play and the way I take a screen shot, while displaying the time is:

Hit the home button twice so you'll see the game window in a line with other programs on your ipad. Then while sliding the screen, displaying the game screen and enough of the main screen to see the time, take the screenshot. This move takes 3 fingers at once.
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#123 whocaresman

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 07:58 PM

Any word on my case yet? 



#124 GaryLShelton

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:01 PM

Any word on my case yet?


We just closed this one today. The MT has voted to deduct 50 points from player "UMadBro..." and add 13 points to whocaresman for draw refusal in their game together, pending administrative action as usual.
The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#125 John Basilone

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 05:43 PM

Any word on my complaint. 

 

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#126 GaryLShelton

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 07:04 PM

Any word on my complaint. 

 

John, I see this is the same complaint you posted two weeks ago.  Here:  http://forum.strateg...2567#entry32567

 

The one improvement is that now your screenshot link today actually takes one to a single screenshot, whereas two weeks ago it did not take one to anything.  However,  you did not post adequate screens to show your opponent's poor sportsmanship as described in the rules I linked to you two weeks ago, again here:  http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2014/

 

We need to see in a situation such as this that not only  is a draw a clear draw, which your game was, but also to see that your opponent has been given the standard ten minutes of time and at least one more chance to accept the tie before convicting him of being a draw refuser.  One screen does not a conviction make.  There needs to be at least two tie refusal screenshots that are ten minutes apart.  In the first one anything could have happened.  For one, we do not know from looking at your screen whether you had been playing for ten minutes prior or not.  You need to always have time stamps on your screenshots.  Or, possibly, maybe he meant to accept but accidentally declined you instead.  Many people refuse the first tie request out of habit.  This doesn't make them bad.  You've only given us one screenshot and we cannot read a whole book from that one screen.  Give us a bit more on this and we'll open a case.  Do you have any more screens to show?


The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#127 John Basilone

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 09:10 PM

Thanks, Gary.  I will learn how to take better screenshots (with the times included).



#128 Midnightguy

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 09:38 PM

One final thing John, you need to show you surrendered the match.  If you fail to show you surrendered how do we know you still didn't win or lose the game or later on your opponent accepted the draw?  



#129 WileEPirate

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 09:48 PM

Any update about my case against ABSH?



#130 Kernel Mustard

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 10:08 PM

In a case like John Basilone, I think that if the player refuses a draw at all, even without waiting 5-10 minutes or anything, he should be deducted points. It's such an obvious draw. Personally I think the only evidence needed in a case like that is a defeat screen.


The earth is a flat plane:  https://www.youtube....dLUm8Db&index=2 Psalm 19:4 - 6, Rev 7:1


#131 GaryLShelton

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 01:53 AM

In a case like John Basilone, I think that if the player refuses a draw at all, even without waiting 5-10 minutes or anything, he should be deducted points. It's such an obvious draw. Personally I think the only evidence needed in a case like that is a defeat screen.

 

This would be totally unfair to the accused, KM.  A single screen of a tie refusal shows nothing of the intent of the other player to waste a lot of time in a valid draw.  Even a tie refusal screen plus a defeat screen immediately afterwards shows nothing of the opponent's intent to drag the game out.  The only thing that proves this point beyond all doubt is time itself.  We ask for a 10 minute interval as a standard in a clear draw.  This amount of time in the case of a clear draw will be considered proof of the time wasting of the opponent.  

 

In the case of draws that are not clear draws, but merely no progress is being made we set our standard at twenty minutes of proof, with a final tie refusal taken very near the surrendering of the game.  

 

A tie may be a tie, but time evidence is needed to show bad sportsmanship.


The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#132 Midnightguy

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 06:22 AM

I agree Kernel Mustard there are a few cases where it's a clear draw (sealed flags and no miners) where 5-10 minutes shouldn't be needed such as.  Clear example:

 

1)  Player A has higher unit (Major) left vs Player B (Captain) and they are both out in open.  Player B's Captain can simply go around the lake to avoid Player A's Major

 

2) Player A has Major and Captain or pending on some cases where the bombs are at for both sides Player A also has a second Captain and Player B has a scout.  The more open space that is available the more likely the scout can force a draw and just zoom around the board to avoid capture.  It's be debated that even 4 units may not be able to capture a scout.  

 

However, Kernel Mustard if you are looking to resolve the situation so that player is punished and you get your points for the draw, please follow our procedure.  For us to judge draw abuse, you must show both draw refusal screens within 10 minutes and then the defeat screen.   The reason we follow this strict guidelines is because we don't want to judge one case as "That is a clear draw" but then next player assumes their game is clear too when its not.   


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#133 GaryLShelton

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 12:22 PM

Any update about my case against ABSH?


Soon.
The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#134 GaryLShelton

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 04:17 AM

Any update about my case against ABSH?


The MT has acquitted ABSH of the claim brought by WileEPirate for draw refusal. The quality of the evidence was problematic and not strong enough to generate a permanent ban conviction of ABSH in this case.

EDIT: The MT had previously requested a reset of ABSH down to 100 for a prior second offense, and this did not happen. So that penalty will be pressed for again at this time.
The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#135 The best French

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 05:47 PM

I report undericover' for draw refusal and unsportsmanlike behaviour. This guy was using all the 15 seconds to make his moves since i ask for draw. His behaviour was intentionnally bad. See my screenshots please punish him

 

http://imgur.com/bJ6LAkr

http://imgur.com/nVIMB3R

http://imgur.com/XVZzh1F

http://imgur.com/oHbVPWj

http://imgur.com/KlnoCBW

http://imgur.com/7Is9Qrg

http://imgur.com/kGaSFSM



#136 Kernel Mustard

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 06:00 PM

I report undericover' for draw refusal and unsportsmanlike behaviour. This guy was using all the 15 seconds to make his moves since i ask for draw. His behaviour was intentionnally bad. See my screenshots please punish him

 

That's an interesting game, do you mind if I post one of the screenshots here? http://forum.strateg...training-forum/

 

I think that might actually be winnable, but I'm not sure.


The earth is a flat plane:  https://www.youtube....dLUm8Db&index=2 Psalm 19:4 - 6, Rev 7:1


#137 Midnightguy

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 07:28 PM

Thanks for the screen shots The Best French, we'll take a look at your case.  



#138 sevenseas

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 08:58 PM

I'm pretty sure that situation is a draw, KM. I may be wrong though.
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#139 Kernel Mustard

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 04:19 AM

If the opponent is allowed to double chase, which I think d-chasing is allowed in non-tournament games, then I think it is a certain draw, but if the player can't d-chase, it makes me wonder if there is a way to beat it...


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The earth is a flat plane:  https://www.youtube....dLUm8Db&index=2 Psalm 19:4 - 6, Rev 7:1


#140 sevenseas

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 05:19 AM

I think it's still a draw then, too.
I play as Sevenseas & Don't Cry




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