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Automatic Draw System


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#21 varishnakov

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:04 AM

Yes, the beauty of the game lies in the relationship between material and knowledge. How much are you willing to give up to learn where everything is.

I have quit the site until the cheating players are dealt with.


#22 Lord_AvS

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:46 AM

There should never be a victory decided. Also not when there are no miners left. Sometimes you are able to guess the flag (not surrounded by bombs) or you can surround your opponent piece. I think you can only tackle this issue when you implement the option to call a staff member ingame which can judge the game, however i know that it would be hard to implement this.


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#23 SpacemanSpiff

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:06 AM

2 options:

1) Moderator - ability to call moderators to review the situation and force the draw.
2) System draw after 50 moves (50x2 = 100)

#24 HmmNess

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:51 AM

Well, we are not going to get a moderator to come into each game.  This is just not practical. 

 

The draw after 50 moves is the only way I can see fit.  Of course, sometimes you are going to run into problems.  Players that are behind in material can desperately try to force the 50 move rule and cause a draw.  If one player feels like dancing around the lake with his highest ranked piece, you must come up with a strategy or an automatic draw will decide your fate. 

 

Let’s say both you and your opponent have a General as your highest rank piece.  Your opponent is showing you his fancy dance moves while circling around the lake like a little ballerina girl.  Your opponent is not moving any other pieces, so you do not know which pieces are bombs and which are not.  To make sure you do not get a draw, you must venture out with some scouts and moderate ranked pieces to find out what his pieces are.  Remember the 2 square rule while doing this so that your opponent's General doesn't trap you.

 

What I usually do in this situation, is sacrifice a piece that is far away from one of the lakes.  The General will chase the piece into a corner and capture while I move my General up and pin his General.  This works almost every time since players become desperate when they are losing and will gobble up as much material as possible.

 

HmmNess


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#25 Lord_AvS

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:57 PM

And what if players lose their miners at the start of the game? Or let's say there are more pieces left in the endgame. It's then not possible to complete the game within 50 moves. With this rule you force players into a draw when they have no miners left.


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#26 trickz

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:26 PM

Well, we are not going to get a moderator to come into each game.  This is just not practical. 
 
The draw after 50 moves is the only way I can see fit.  Of course, sometimes you are going to run into problems.  Players that are behind in material can desperately try to force the 50 move rule and cause a draw.  If one player feels like dancing around the lake with his highest ranked piece, you must come up with a strategy or an automatic draw will decide your fate. 
 
Let’s say both you and your opponent have a General as your highest rank piece.  Your opponent is showing you his fancy dance moves while circling around the lake like a little ballerina girl.  Your opponent is not moving any other pieces, so you do not know which pieces are bombs and which are not.  To make sure you do not get a draw, you must venture out with some scouts and moderate ranked pieces to find out what his pieces are.  Remember the 2 square rule while doing this so that your opponent's General doesn't trap you.
 
What I usually do in this situation, is sacrifice a piece that is far away from one of the lakes.  The General will chase the piece into a corner and capture while I move my General up and pin his General.  This works almost every time since players become desperate when they are losing and will gobble up as much material as possible.
 
HmmNess

I remember such a game against you.
I was up two majors and we both had one colonel left.
But you had more pieces than me so I was outnumbered in lower material.
You only moved the colonel around the lake like a ballerina and I couldn't do nothing.
I couldn't trap you with a low piece on the side because you didn't fall for it.
I couldn't move the majors up because then your colonel would trap me with the 2s-rule and take one out.
I was two ranks up so I couldn't afford that or otherwise you would have outnumbered me.
But I also couldn't afford it to find out unknown pieces because I didn't have miners left so I had no choice then to draw.
You were not gonna give the colonel in a million lightyears, even if I offered you a pawn for it. :)
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#27 HmmNess

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 07:26 PM

that is true... I don't fall for those old trickz... trickz.

 

=)


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#28 trickz

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 07:49 PM

that's the main problem with my playstyle,...i waste scouts and miners too easily.
Everything to get control on the board, even if it means that I can't take the flag anymore.
I'm just not an attacker that goes for the flag. I know that already, if I do that, I'm surely fcked. It happened so many times. I only go for the flag when I'm behind in material and I have no other choice.
But then again, if you play too passive, you'll be fcked as well. :)
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#29 §ilence321

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:40 AM

i vote yes


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#30 GOD OF WAR

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:41 AM

no for me i would rather be chased for hours on end thank you very much  :D


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#31 trickz

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:55 AM

Normally I should vote yes instead of no but if they solve the draw glitch issue (and I mean that draws cost or gain points instead of nothing at all which occurs frequently with me), then I will vote yes.
It has no use to play till eternity with no goal in target.
Fact is that I lost many points with accepted draws from stronger players and I got zero points for those.
That's why my vote is currently no.
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#32 GaryLShelton

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:09 AM

Cudos for another key suggestion by Hmmness.  

 

The automatic draw needs to be implemented, but I would add two suggestions to the proposition as laid out.  Also, I have one new question and a suggestion for that question at the bottom:

 

Suggestion #1 to the original propostion:  I would like to suggest that the 50 moves (100 total for two players) that we are talking about should mean 50 moves for each player without a capture of any piece on either side.  IT SHOULD NOT BE SIMPLY 50 MOVES TO THE FINAL KILL.  MOREOVER, ONCE ACTIVATED, THE 50 MOVE COUNTER SHOULD RE-SET IF ANY PIECE IS CAPTURED.    

 

Suggestion #2 to the original proposition:  Have a "Tie Warning" message appear to both players with either 20 or 10 moves left for each player, so there is ample awareness on both sides.

 

New question:  What other situations might occur to activate the 50 move counter?  The clear one you describe is in the case of no miners on either side.  But the lack of miners might not be the only litmus test to activate this counter.  Another might be the case where one or both players have unprotected flags and still a miner or two on either or both sides.  

 

As an example, I lost a game recently because I just gave in to the interminable situation of a marshall chasing my general by an opponent who wouldn't accept a tie request.  My colonel and major were protecting my flag from more numerous but inferior pieces, including at least one miner of my opponent.  Nothing was going to occur because I couldn't take my one colonel or major and go after my opponent's unprotected flag, and he couldn't get mine. Without a chasing rule and an automatic draw, I just got tired of the many minutes of relentless chasing and took the loss, allowing him to kill my general, and soon thereafter my colonel and major.  

 

Suggestion for my new question:  Perhaps the 50 move counter could be activated when there are only 15-20 pieces left on one side?  This small number of pieces would work whether there were miners or not left on the board.  

 

Hopefully, everyone will find these interesting ideas, if not good and desirable.  I know many who have issues with taking the draws due to the ranking points involved.  But whether it is an automatic draw or a granted-by-an-opponent draw, that issue has to be resolved separately from the automatic draw.  Indeed, it doesn't seem that it would be that complicated to work out an equitable point payoff for draws.  So let's keep the two issues separated.  An automatic draw is something that needs to happen in the software.


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#33 Midnightguy

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 07:55 AM

Gary the suggestion for 50 move draw would mean 50 moves from each player just like in Chess. 

 

Gary with your game and saying that there there was a miner left, perhaps the counter could start when one or both players are only willing to move one piece?  If the losing side is forced to move one piece and the winning side makes no progress to capture that piece, or any bomb, or the flag, it should be a draw.  Though you said you had two high ranked pieces guarding the flag, but in that case you would simply not move the other and keep the other at bay to get the counter going.  If one of those pieces were able to be captured, then its up to your opponent to make an attempt to win the game by capturing one of them or accept a draw. 

 

I don't agree with the warning counter.  They don't have that in chess and its up to the players to keep track of the moves.  They have to keep track of their moves in writing and then once the 50 moves is up, one or both sides declare the draw.  If the side who has the advantage hasn't made an effort to go for the win, then they shouldn't be given a warning.  However, I would suggest the site perhaps implement a move counter to see how many moves for the game has been made so, perhaps the side who is pulling for a draw could try to keep track. 



#34 HmmNess

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:20 AM

The 50 moves per player is for a reason.  I tested this out and you can capture any 1 piece from all the way across the game board with 2 pieces in 30 moves.  That gives you 20 extra moves to make mistakes with and you will still be able to capture the enemy piece.  25 moves for each player is not acceptable.  You could draw when there is clearly a way to win if you have 2 superior pieces and 0 Miners on your squad.  If you only have 1 superior piece and 0 Miners in your squad, then this is clearly a draw since 1 superior piece could only chase other inferior pieces if your enemy is smart.

 

The pop up window for a "draw warning" would be annoying.  Chess websites that I know of do not have the pop up and clearly you understand when there is a draw at hand if you have not captured any piece within 50 moves.

 

The rule is simple:

 

1.)  50 moves without a single capture and 0 miners = a draw

 

This idea will work.  0 Miners means 0 chance for you to capture a flag that is covered in bombs.  If you have any miners left alive, there is always the possibility to capture an opponent's flag, no matter how long it takes.  If you have 0 Miners and you believe that the opponent's flag is not covered in bombs, then scout ahead.  50 moves will allow you to scout a whole bunch of times, even if a scout is being sneaky.

 

I have not come up with an idea if you still have miners alive.  The problem: you could be strangling your opponent with your strong pieces in order to allow your Miner to sneak his way in.  This could take more than 50 moves and it would be unfair for players to draw when they are clearly able to win. 

 

I only believe this rule should be applied if both players have 0 Miners left in their squad.

 

HmmNess


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#35 SpacemanSpiff

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:09 PM

I see no problem with the tie warning - we have the 2-square warning now which doesn't seem to cause any problems. I think there should be a warning after maybe 40 moves per (80 total).

#36 Lord_AvS

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 07:36 PM

I see no problem too with a tie warning as well. This prevents people are unaware of automatically draws.

Your new proposal of 50 moves without a single capture is for me acceptable. If you both lost your miners at the beginning of the game you will continue with capturing pieces. And if both players don't dare to risk their pieces a draw is justified.


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#37 GOD OF WAR

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:52 AM

why don't we just try this idea I've decided on , players only get 1 pause each and 2 draws its quite simple 


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#38 Midnightguy

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:52 AM

Hmmness, what about my suggestion where if you move only one piece for 50 moves and no captures have been made on either side that game should be a draw.   If one player is moving only one piece that usually means they only have one or less than three pieces that they can't or won't move?  Like in Gary's example he had two pieces left and his opponent had a miner left but didn't have the higher ranked pieces to force a win.  In that case the miner made no difference since, his opponent couldn't make any progress because Gary had a Major and Colonel around the flag. 

 

What about where for example player A has a Captain left and player B has a miner left.  Clearly player A can't leave his flag area and player B can't get past the Captain yet they refuse the draw.  This needs to be an automatic draw if clearly both sides are moving one piece 50 times and no captures have been made.  This would take care of the issue if one side still has a miner but, either can't or refuses to make progress in their game. 

 

Again as for the draw warning, I just don't agree to it because you don't see chess players tell each other a draw will be coming.  However after some thinking over, some of our newer players may not know what is going on and the warning may perhaps encourage them to go for the win if they have the lead.  In that case, I would go ahead with the warning message.



#39 HmmNess

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 07:00 AM

Ok

 

So after moving 1 piece 50 times without capture, this would also result in a draw.  I see what you are saying, but what if there are 2 pieces per each team.  You could just switch back and forth by moving both pieces.  There is no way that i could see the code implementing something like this without breaking the game to an extent.  I suppose the winning player could take a chance and go after 1 of the pieces with both of his pieces, yet he could be making a mistake.

 

I agree that there needs to be some type of auto draw in this type of situation, but we have to look at all aspects of it.  I don't want players penalized when they are slowly trying to strangle their opponent.  Some players like to play it safe, and set up their pieces to block off all the flanks before going in for the kill.  This could take longer than 50 moves.  I'm still unsure about drawing while miners are still alive, since it could rush things.

 

HmmNess


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#40 Midnightguy

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:08 AM

Well again if one player only opts to move one piece either because that is all they have two left but one is bogged down protecting flag, then it's up to the other player to force progress or be forced to accept the draw.  Usually if one person is refusing the draw the other is just going to move one piece near their flag and just sit there and if the other player doesn't make an effort to win the game in 50 moves...then it's a draw. 

 

If both sides refuse the draw and want to move two pieces or more on their own for hours upon hours without making an effort to win the game...then they must not have anything better to do with their time. 






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