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Stratego move time


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Poll: About setup time/time buffer (44 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you think about the time you have for each move?

  1. Keep the same move timer, 15 seconds (16 votes [36.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.36%

  2. Increase the move timer to 20 seconds (2 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  3. Lower the move timer to 12 seconds (3 votes [6.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.82%

  4. Lower the move timer to 10 seconds (10 votes [22.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.73%

  5. Voted Lower the move timer to 8 seconds (9 votes [20.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.45%

  6. Lower the move timer to 5 seconds (4 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

How long shall the setup time last?

  1. Keep the same setup time, 7 minutes (10 votes [22.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.73%

  2. Increase the setup time to 8 minutes (1 votes [2.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.27%

  3. Lower the setup time to 6 minutes (6 votes [13.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.64%

  4. Lower the setup time to 5 minutes (12 votes [27.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.27%

  5. Lower the setup time to 4 minutes (8 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  6. Voted Lower the setup time to 3 minutes (7 votes [15.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.91%

How do you want to see the game buffer?

  1. Keep the same game buffer, 5 minutes (21 votes [47.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.73%

  2. Increase the game buffer to 6 minutes (5 votes [11.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.36%

  3. Increase the game buffer to 8 minutes (2 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  4. Lower the game buffer to 4 minutes (3 votes [6.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.82%

  5. Voted Lower the game buffer to 3 minutes (9 votes [20.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.45%

  6. Lower the game buffer to 2 minutes (2 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  7. Increase the time buffer to 10 minutes (2 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

Vote

#21 Where Is Ya Flag

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 01:02 PM

Lower the move timer free buffer to 4 seconds. Add an overall game timer that starts at 60 minutes and winds down to zero. Nothing can pause this timer.  Make this 60 min timer an option a player clicks on when he sets a board to play at.

 

Decrease the time a game starts from 6 to 3 minutes. Add a popup dialog box that takes over focus of the screen once the game starts so that players DONT FORGET that they even set a board to play. Add an option to not play a game that never starts if both players agree, that will not count as a win or loss or draw, just a nongame.

 Same problem here...

 

So now the players who don't play Stratego but play "run your Marshall as fast as possible into a bomb" will let me wait 60 minutes for a win I could've had within 3-4 minutes, if they want to be sore


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#22 maribo

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 07:33 PM

no sir. Their clock still runs out after 5 minutes if they don't move. So that remains unchanged.

This 60 minute timer is useful for a normal fair game at the beginning that turns into one of those unsportsmanlike games at the end where the opponent won't draw when you request it and you are in the right. The types of games we are hearing about. The 5 minute timer would still run out on the player who does not move. I don't follow your objection, you are not thinking it through clearly



#23 maribo

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 07:41 PM

your first post also I do not follow. Whatever fisher is I don't care. If you are in a position to win then do your moves to effect that outcome before 60 minutes goes buy. If the other player stalls, his game clock will run down from 10 mins to zero. If he does notmove quickly then eventaully you will work your magic to incapacitate him force him to swap his last piece to stop the miner or if he doesnt move at all his clock runs out. If 60 is too low for you raise it to a higher number. You are wrong in thinking that wins will become draws. you are way off base. Go check the other website for results and you will see. If the 15 second clock is reduced in combination with an overall 60 to 75 minute game clock, wins will still come to you in 3 ways. You 1) incapacitate him from moving, You 2) take the flag, 3) his personal timer runs out.  These 3 options are listed in order of likelihood.



#24 GaryLShelton

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 08:18 AM

Some of the opionions expressed here about not lowering the game timer lower than 5 minutes are not based on fact.

90% of my games end with me and my opponent both having 5:00 thats five, as in 5 full minutes left on our timers when the game ends.

Why is this possible? Because in a 300 move game each opponent already has 2,250 seconds to move (about 40 minutes) before the timer even ticks down because of that stupid 15 second clock. It is the stupid 15 second clock that is way off base. If that timer was reduced to 4 seconds the game clock could even rise to 10 minutes and all would be well and no one would be rushed. With my 2,250 seconds I am able to take a piss, dump and shower and still have time to white wash my opponent.

 

Hey maribo.  Someone said they didn't really care about the length of the move timer and buffer, just so long as they were "balanced".  It's awfully hard to balance them, though, because they are such apples and oranges.  For example, you say we could reduce the move timer to 4 seconds and raise the game buffer to 10 minutes, but this would hardly be "balanced" to what we have now.  

 

I mean this:  if you have 2250 seconds per your 150 moves in a game now, plus the 300 seconds of buffer time (5 min x 60), then you have 2550 of time for this whole game to play.  But if you reduce the move timer down to 4 seconds, each player now only has 600 seconds for his 150 moves and 600 seconds for his game buffer (10 min x 60), or 1200 seconds total.  

 

You say that people wouldn't be rushed when their time to play is cut in half?  (2550 seconds down to 1200).  I don't know how.  To "balance" the two timers would mean we'd have to have a buffer, not of 10 minutes, but rather of approximately 32.5 minutes.  This would make the times equal.  You'd have 600 sec's of move timer and 1950 sec's of buffer then, or 2550 seconds total.  Of course, this large buffer would be a ridiculous problem if someone disconnected and made you wait for the win.  

 

The game cap idea is an interesting one for a poll.  But we could only put three questions in so we chose the three we did.  I don't think I'd be for it, however, as I think the AutoDraw is a superior method of ending the game, if we could ever get that at the site.

 

Gary


The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#25 maribo

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 09:58 AM

whatever the balance comes to be whatever it is i dont care do the math whatever who cares.

but an effective move timer must have some impact and the current one does not because you can still play a 3 hour game and have 5 minutes left on your clock because of that stupid 15 second buffer. the personal game timer could be 15 minutes. Of course gary if they are changing anything at all then they can certainly have moderators ban people who leave the tables. There is data in the system. If you leave more than 5 games then you cant play ranked for 3 monhts time.



#26 maribo

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 04:19 PM

Auto draw is a bad idea. There are many endgames for which each player can possibly playing with an unknown marshall, spy, miner, sarge and perhaps 1 other midlevel piece, and the other player may not have the mid level piece but has more miners. So the person with more power has to decide between guessing moving pieces to trap on one of the 3 gaps, while worrying about leave a gap unattended for a miner run. It takes many moves to setup for both players positions that enable some deception. These games regardless of the time of the day it takes, can take perhaps 1000 moves combined. You cannot enforce some draw based on moves.

 

A game timer forces both players to move toward an outcome sooner.

From reading the posts of the worry warts I will change my recommendation to a 75 minute real time clock, keep the 5 minute buffer, reduced the second timer to 10 seconds. If 10 is to high then  review it after 3 months of testing to 8 or so.

 

Dude if someone wants to sit in the room with you and be unsportsmanlike while his game timer runs out before the 2:30 disconnect clock starts then there has to be a moderator button online to gain their attention where they can "come into the game room" and view the bad behavior in realtime and end the game right then and there.



#27 Gaius Marius

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 05:10 PM

Ive played in VERY competitive chess tournaments as a child and we each had 15 min of time to think, no move buffer, we all did fine and things were ok.  I think you are all over-thinking it.


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#28 GaryLShelton

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 05:33 PM

maribo, you have some good ideas I'm certainly in the choir when it comes to wanting to penalize people who leave games. I would even take your numbers and make them tougher, if anything. I think 3 times in one month is too many to be an accident, but I would always want a review available just in case.

On the issue of the timers we will disagree but there are clearly some differing opinions around. I personally don't know what all the rush to speed up the game is about. There are times when more thinking is required and the games always move a bit slower then. I've never played anyone who took 15 seconds on every move. Much of the time that much time is not needed or used by either player. But i still like it there.

Auto draw is a bad idea. It takes many moves to setup for both players positions that enable some deception. You cannot enforce some draw based on moves.

A game timer forces both players to move toward an outcome sooner.


As for the total game clock, I would only argue that if you are okay with this mechanism to end the game, then know that it could occur at very inopportune moments as well as an auto draw. Know too that the move number can be tweaked on the auto draw the same as we could adjust the total game clock. Also, the auto draw would give the strategist a method of extending the game if that suited his purposes by simply killing off a piece. He'd have to plan for this but at least the possibility would be present. Nothing would stop your total game clock.


I would definitely be for trial period of 1 to 4 months for any change so that we'd have time for the tweakings.

Gary

P.S.: I liked your transcript of Jack Nicholson's powerful speech in A Few Good Men. Great stuff.
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Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#29 maribo

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 09:45 PM

2 separate things : #2 is what you proposed the vote on.

1) To eliminate unsportsmanlike negative decisions not to accept an obvious draw. game timer/move counter.

2) To make the 5 minute timer actually have an impact. The only way to leave the 5 minute timer in place but actually have it have some effect is to make the second clock run out SOMEWHAT sooner. I would not expect you to have a more than 10 second thought process at the beginning of the game, I would expect you to have more time in the middle/end of the game when you are questioning an opponents counter, or planning a new strategy. However as long as you don't have 50 "thought processes" greater than 10 seconds you will be fine.

As you say automating bad behavior mechanisms would be great. Because another thing is that when a nice guy actually needs a real pause in the game and the other player knows he is being honest, perhaps more players would accept pause requests, but there is a negative connection to that because of the old software bug.

 

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#30 GaryLShelton

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:54 AM

Dude if someone wants to sit in the room with you and be unsportsmanlike while his game timer runs out before the 2:30 disconnect clock starts then there has to be a moderator button online to gain their attention where they can "come into the game room" and view the bad behavior in realtime and end the game right then and there.

 

Yes, in a perfect world we could have moderators online for every game.  But I think realistically the better approach would be to make everything a human can do automated in the programming.  This would be of course cheaper for the site owner and it would always eliminate any human subjectivity as well.

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The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#31 scottrussia

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 05:54 AM

So is anything going to be changed?????? 

 

I just left two consecutive games where 15 seconds was somehow required for each of the first three moves.  even asked the second person  to please play normally and not waste time. 

 

Its beyond ridiculous the time wasting between not moving and disconnecting and letting the timer run down and disconnecting.

 

If nothing changed.  Then how about a section for people wanting to play with 5 second moves???  Let people self select.


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#32 GaryLShelton

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:47 AM

Scottrussia, we did not have anything close to a definitive vote on the issue in this thread/poll.  Apparently the only things that can be said are that people don't care to vote and that, obviously, there is interest going each way with the move timers.  

 

On your idea of choice, it is something that's been brought up before with different issues.  It's always interesting.  But I'm not sure that any differences like that will ever fly, because it would be hard to impossible to merge the ELO lines of each way of playing, so that there would have to be different ELO rankings for each choice path.  I don't see it happening, but then, right now not much is happening, so you should hang onto the thought for later.

 

As the rules are what they are, however, you are wrong to accuse someone of not playing "normally" by using their 15 second clock.  

 

Gary


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Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#33 scottrussia

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:15 AM

You really need to spend 15 seconds for each of your first three moves?

 

Maybe the first one your just sitting down or got distracted.  But each of the first three?  No, that's just wasting my time intentionally and not normal.

 

There are a certain number of players that use time as a weapon.  I think some of them believe that their opponent is less likely to remember pieces the longer they can make the game - others are just doing it to try to get free points - and they are successful because I no longer bother to stick around - I simply resign.  I've left it up to my son to do as he pleases - and he's also begun to leave more games - why spend your whole hour your allowed to play on one game with someone intentionally wasting time.  Resign, lose the points and play the next one.

 

And if my son is doing that - in terms of building a growing number of players - I'd say that allowing the current situation to continue - that the exact opposite will occur.  Folks will choose to spend their time doing other things.


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#34 GaryLShelton

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:40 PM

You really need to spend 15 seconds for each of your first three moves?

 

Maybe the first one your just sitting down or got distracted.  But each of the first three?  No, that's just wasting my time intentionally and not normal.

 

There are a certain number of players that use time as a weapon.  I think some of them believe that their opponent is less likely to remember pieces the longer they can make the game - others are just doing it to try to get free points - and they are successful because I no longer bother to stick around - I simply resign.  I've left it up to my son to do as he pleases - and he's also begun to leave more games - why spend your whole hour your allowed to play on one game with someone intentionally wasting time.  Resign, lose the points and play the next one.

 

And if my son is doing that - in terms of building a growing number of players - I'd say that allowing the current situation to continue - that the exact opposite will occur.  Folks will choose to spend their time doing other things.

 

ScottRussia, one will no doubt use less time in some situations during the game. But why get so upset over a few seconds? The game will no doubt move quicker later. If you want to resign and move on because of the first 45 seconds early in the game, you're overreacting. And if people read this and decide to use it against you as a "weapon", I'd say Bravo to them for their creative tactic.

Hey, look, I can feel the frustration in your voice about this issue, and I'm sorry it bothers you so much. We concur on the subjects of the disconnectors, and keeping the site at a family rated level. But as you can imagine, I think this "time as a weapon" thing is just a bit over the top.

Hopefully more people will cast votes. But since we don't have any programmers at the site there isn't much chance things will change in the timers anyway, not that I want them to, of course. A similar situation for me was with the 2 square rule here. I despised it, as you do this timer, but I had to make my peace with it or go crazy. So you somehow have to make peace with this 15 second move timer also, or just watch your anxiety level rise higher and higher over it. Clearly, it's not changing anytime soon, if ever. Good luck.

Gary


The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#35 Roondy Moose

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 03:03 PM

The two square rule IS stratego. Without it, we would just be chimps rolling pieces around in the mud.


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#36 GaryLShelton

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 05:20 PM

The two square rule IS stratego. Without it, we would just be chimps rolling pieces around in the mud.

 

Roondy Moose, the game that I played as a kid we never used this rule so I was always against it when I came here.  I have since learned that it was indeed in my 1961 Milton Bradley game rules and that we had just kind of ignored it all those years ago.  In addition, other things are different between here and those 1961 rules, such as the moving and attacking in the same turn by the Scout.  This clearly was prohibited back then.  Also, a weird rule existed in the 1961 game that says that if you are attacked and win, you still must move your winning piece to the space occupied by the losing piece.  This is not a rule most have ever heard of.  I never myself played by it, although I did talk with one person here at sometime who said they did.  (The Prof?)  

 

Anyway, I will say that the 2 square rule doesn't mimic real life in any way to say someone must stop and die, but I've made my piece with it, nonetheless.  We have a game and people want this rule to speed the game along.  Okay.  The only thing I want to say is that the rule in my 1961 box was a prohibition of a third move within the same two squares, as opposed to prohibiting the fourth move within the same two squares as we have here on the site.  I'm not sure what kinds of differences, if any, that that might make, but it's there.  The Prof didn't think it would make any difference at all, as I recall.

 

This all said, I did propose a 3/4 plan many months ago.  It would allow the chased piece to escape, to have a 4th move in any chase situation.  It would be interesting to me to try it this way but I've moved past arguing about it.

 

Gary


The complete GS&F Rules can be found here: http://forum.strateg...rum-rules-2016/

Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604

#37 scottrussia

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:29 PM

Gary,

 

This weekend I played a game that lasted more than 90 minutes - 1 game.  EVERY MOVE by the other player took 15 seconds.  Every single one.  I only played the game because I had resigned about 3 others due to folks doing similar things and I had had it.

 

Is it some large percentage of players that do this?  I'd say no.  But is it perhaps 3-5%?  Yes,  and is there another 3-5% that start to do it if they are losing the game?  Yes. 

 

And its not a few seconds.  15 seconds for their move.  2 seconds for mine.  lets say 2 seconds for the system to go from one player's turn the clock to the other.  Now that means that 6 moves takes 1 minute.  3 moves for me, 3 moves for you.   360 moves take AN HOUR.  And that's with me moving as quickly as possible.  Now make the move clock 5 seconds and the same scenario is 5 seconds for his move, 2 seconds for mine, 2 seconds for system switching players.  6 moves now takes 30 seconds.  HALF THE TIME!!!!!  360 moves now takes 30 minutes.

 

Its just nonsense.  These folks aren't "thinking" about their every move.  They are intentionally 1. Wasting time hoping you quit.  2. Using time as a weapon, drawing things out as long as possible hoping you will not remember what pieces are what number and what is a bomb and not a bomb (I've even played one person a few times that he just moves around bombs using 15 seconds every move in an attempt to get you to forget and hit the bomb - WITH ZERO ATTEMPTS TO ATTACK AND FIND YOUR FLAG - The actual purpose of the game.  3.  Being rude and using that to try to get free points. 

 

I played a game yesterday with a gentleman from I believe Switzerland.  I captured a three of his early.  Every move after starts to be 15 seconds.  I politely asked him to play "a little quicker" and his reply was very upfront.  You can resign if you don't want to waste your time he said.  So I asked if every move would now take 15 seconds - and he replied yes.  And it did.  Game took almost an hour and that was with me doing all out attack to try to end the stupid game by finding his flag.

 

Now, if you think that is an environment that will "grow" the community of people playing the game I'd simply disagree.  When my son and I play over a board on the table we can play 3-4 games in about 30-40 minutes - and we don't easily resign to each other - we generally play to the death.  And there are times he is thinking of some new master attack plan to wipe me out!  So its not like we are forcing ourselves to play "fast".

 

Either something is done, or you'll end up with a site that attracts jerks that want to accumulate points at all costs, but certainly isn't going to appeal to the mainstream.  Nor will it grow the game and appeal to kids.


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#38 Roondy Moose

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:49 PM

Not every instance of taking 15 seconds is malicious.

On one of my computers and certain browsers, the animations greatly slow down the game. Since I cannot move when the animations are occurring, I am forced to wait. That takes 10 or so seconds. Which leaves 5 seconds to think.

If the move-time were changed to 5 seconds, every capture would take away from my buffer time.


 


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#39 scottrussia

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:53 PM

And Gary,

As if to almost prove my point.  I just "played" three games.

 

Game 1. Person took entire setup time.  Made Zero advancing moves (never moved a piece into my setup area).  I attacked on my right flank, during which I realized he was not actually playing to find the flag.  Boring.  So I throw caution to the wind.  Game over quickly as I surrender.

 

Game 2. Person uses entire setup time.  EVERY MOVE TAKES 15 Seconds.  I ask to player quicker.  No reply, next three moves all take 15 seconds.  I surrender.

 

Game 3.  Actual Game - I capture my opponents 4 and then a 3.  DISCONNECTION.

 

There is no way this site will grow and be successful with this type of nonsense.  Is the above "bad luck of the draw" - yes it is as many times I play 5-6 good games in a row.  But if you consider most players probably sit down once or twice a week to play some stratego - soon they will be "checking ebay", shooting hoops, or watching a movie rather than playing. 

 

Clock settings should be reduced - leave the buffer at 5 minutes.  Setup time 3 minutes.  Move time 5 seconds.  And endings should be tracked and disconnectors simply banned.  All IMO of course. 


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#40 GaryLShelton

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 10:31 PM

Scott, 90 minutes is a long game, I'll agree there.  You must've been very unlike yourself to stick that one out for so long!  Anyway, as you know I do not have a problem with the 15 second clock.  But that's not to say that a quicker overall game wouldn't appeal to more people.  I think you're probably correct about that.  Right now, though, I'd say we're still attracting a lot of people who love the classic game that this site is faithful to, and maybe the time issue is not so much a problem for most of them, perhaps.  

 

The move for any beta changes is placed on hold without programmers to enact anything, but when they come back maybe there'll be some more experimentation with things such as the timers.  As I said, there is clearly some interest going both ways on the move timer issue.  

 

Gary


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Draw Refusal Rules, specifically, can be read here: http://forum.strateg...604#entry339604




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