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#461 Don_Homer

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 11:15 AM

Which tricky bombs? I guess red having a miner and any other low ranked piece against 1 higher ranked piece of blue has the win in 100% of the cases?

Not in 100% of the cases. It's pretty tricky because you more or less have to manipulate and combine the 2 square rule and the chasing rule to your advantage. I think its not possible when you have 4 or more squares to go to (vertically). Also bombs in the half of the board of the miner can help to get a draw.


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#462 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 11:43 AM

In case of 4 squares available for blue in his field then when the blue lieut is on the last row, miner can move all the way to the left and get in diagonal of the lieut there. Only case that might have to be checked is if red has bombs in c3 d3 g3 and h3. This would block the g4g3 move of the miner that is necessary to force blue to get trapped in a combination of more square and 2 square rule. However such exceptional bomb configuration is quite unlikely. Still I think if there are bombs in c3d3g3 and h3 then red miner shall play same moves but on 2nd row instead of 4th row. Do you have a bomb setup in mind that would disable a 100% win?
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#463 TemplateRex

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 11:43 AM

8x6jBUg.jpg

 

Maxroelofs, Don_Homer and I analyzed this on Gravon. You can force the lieut to the 10th row and start moving your miner to the a-file, but the bomb on b4 gives blue an extra move to recover. We think it's a draw. 


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#464 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 12:45 PM

As soon as lieut is on f10 move

F3e3 f10e10
E3d3 e10d10
D3c3 d10c10
C3b3 c10c9
B3a3 c9b9
A3a4 b9b8
A4a5 and miner is in diagonal
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#465 TemplateRex

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 01:02 PM

As soon as lieut is on f10 move

F3e3 f10e10
E3d3 e10d10
D3c3 d10c10
C3b3 c10c9
B3a3 c9b9
A3a4 b9b8
A4a5 and miner is in diagonal

 

I have to think about it, yesterday I managed to draw this with blue, against Max with red :) 


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#466 maxroelofs

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 01:59 PM

As soon as lieut is on f10 move

F3e3 f10e10
E3d3 e10d10
D3c3 d10c10
C3b3 c10c9
B3a3 c9b9
A3a4 b9b8
A4a5 and miner is in diagonal

You will not move to F10, you can't enter row 10. You will move either inbetween the lake (if possible) or you move to the right (for example G7 in this case). 

 

The miner can move to the left then and take the extra square. The miner will lose that extra square when it has to move from A3 to A4. 

 

EDIT: 

 

Red can win, but not via the A-column nor via the middle lane, right lane is possible unless you put a bomb on I4.


Edited by maxroelofs, 13 May 2020 - 02:10 PM.

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#467 Don_Homer

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 02:41 PM

Red can win, but not via the A-column nor via the middle lane, right lane is possible unless you put a bomb on I4.

Im curious how this works :)


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#468 TemplateRex

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 02:44 PM

I think we must admit that we analyzed not every relevant variation, and that it wins for red.


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#469 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 07:57 PM

:)  :)  :)

 

guys,

 

I will help you demonstrate that there is not exactly a 100% probability for red wins in all possible cases. This is I think the only situation where, assuming both red and blue  flag and bomb setups are exactly like this, where red has only a 25% probability of win by lottoing his sergeant on one of the 4 unknown blue pieces:

 

HhLDtD4.jpg

 

but for the quizz what is this probability of blue to get a draw? Base your calculation on the gravon setup statistics where red and blue flag and bombs will be like that.

 

...that was a nice quizz anyway, thanks for posting it.


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#470 TemplateRex

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 08:33 PM

With 2 bombed off outer lanes (a/b and i/j columns), a lieut can also keep a draw, by simply marching up and down the 7th through 10th row. 


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#471 TemplateRex

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 10:55 AM

kaFwXEK.jpg

 

TemplateRex - Don_Homer (PRO series, result: 1-6).

 

Blue: known left colonel, unknown right colonel.

Red: known major (just revealed by capturing a scouting piece), unknown colonels and spy

Both marshals and generals known but occupied on the other side of the board.

 

Quiz: can red save the major? What is blue's best line of attack? Assume perfect information, does blue's plan change?


Edited by TemplateRex, 30 June 2020 - 10:57 AM.

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#472 TemplateRex

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 11:02 AM

In the game it went:

 

1. a6-a7 b7-b8

2. c4-b4 b8-b9

3. a7xa8 b9-a9

4. b4-a4 c8-b8

5. a4-a5 a9-b9

6. a5-b5 b8-a8

7. b5-b6 d8-c8

8. b6-b7 a8-a9

9. b7-b8 c8xb8

 

and I was left with nothing. :(


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#473 Wnehme

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 11:55 AM

Nice sketch
Move your colonel c 4 to b4
At least you can get the spy i guess

#474 KnightofPepsi

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 01:07 PM

As blue I would move c4 to b4 first and maintain two squares with the major. I think red can still save the major but will likely lose a minor piece or two and may end up getting colonel and major pinned which is an advantage for blue. Also c4 to b4 makes it harder to scout the unknown colonel, so red won’t know if it’s a bluff or not. He has to take the second colonel out which will force him to move pieces. As blue you can either keep the colonel/major pinned or take the moves pieces. Of course, red could bluff too in the incomplete info scenario, and try to trick blue into trading both sets of colonels and save the major.

#475 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 06:07 PM

if first move of blue is a6-a7 then red moves B7-b8 then whatever blue moves red moves b8-b9 then c8-b8 then d8-c8 and the major is safe


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#476 MG_Earp

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 08:07 PM

With perfect information there is no possibility for Blue to get Major. In any case he can only Pin Major if he will not exchange Colonels and stay diagonal.
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#477 TemplateRex

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Posted 04 July 2020 - 07:49 PM

As blue I would move c4 to b4 first and maintain two squares with the major. I think red can still save the major but will likely lose a minor piece or two and may end up getting colonel and major pinned which is an advantage for blue. Also c4 to b4 makes it harder to scout the unknown colonel, so red won’t know if it’s a bluff or not. He has to take the second colonel out which will force him to move pieces. As blue you can either keep the colonel/major pinned or take the moves pieces. Of course, red could bluff too in the incomplete info scenario, and try to trick blue into trading both sets of colonels and save the major.

 

I have put this on the board and I think the best blue can do is to win the spy and put his last colo on a7, with the red colo on b8 and the red major on a9 or b9 behind it. In the game it turned out that c9 was moveable (haven't seen its identity, probably small piece) so at the cost of that second piece, the major could even have been freed eventually. Still, I misplayed this pretty badly and didn't get any of those two pieces by capturing the known colo myself (losing two valuable tempi).


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#478 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 05 July 2020 - 09:36 PM

Have got an interesting case today. first see this board:

OCE0r7d.jpg

 

to understand the game red spy was trapped by the 2 square rule so he could not move F10-F9, instead red moved miner G9-H9 to my big surprise. Question 1: What important information did I get from this move at this moment?

 

Know also that I defused a bomb in A7, that in A8 and B8 he had 2 sergeants and in A10 and B10 2 miners, so I reasonably assumed that A9, B9 and J7 were bombs and as I knew bomb in B7 already I considered that on G10, H10 and J10 he had 1 bomb, 1 unknown unmovd miner and 1 flag. Red knew only my marsh and my lieut + 2 unknown moved pieces (serg and scout)

 

See now the same board a few moves later, spy has been captured but blue lieut was trapped. Blue started to move up his scout 1 square at a time as if it was his last miner. Then Red moved major D9-D10:

zLXzbZF.jpg

 

Question 2: Assuming the information gathered under question 1 above is correct how does blue go for the win after major D9-D10?, 


Edited by Napoleon 1er, 05 July 2020 - 09:42 PM.

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#479 Don_Homer

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Posted 06 July 2020 - 12:08 PM

Where did the Major go? I think H10 was the flag but could be J10 too. 


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#480 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 06 July 2020 - 01:22 PM

There was a 2 square rule exchange on D10/E10 with major and lieut and finally he moved D9-D10 when my lieut was on F10


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